View source for Talk:Chatham Main Line

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{{BS template|Chatham Main Line}}

==Line / Route - Conflict with [[Kent Coast Line]] article==

I don't understand why there are two separate articles on what is essentially one service of trains. This "Line" (which is not an official title is it?) is part of the SET service from London which divides at Faversham - one section carrying on down the coast to Ramsgate - what is called in the OTHER article the [[Kent Coast Line]]; and the other section calling at the stations in this article. Indeed the SET timetable shows just that situation. I have commented elsewhere on the fact that the other long-distance train service, - that through Tonbridge and Ashford - has no article at all. This one has two!

Surely what is needed is that this and Kent Coast articles are merged into one with the title being the latter; and a separate new article, which I am now raising, entitled [[London - Ashford- Dover Line]]. [[User:Peter Shearan|Peter Shearan]] 14:16, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
: I have amended the wording here. Since Strood is not mentioned as one of the stations on the line it would complicate things; and according to the SET timetables trains for Ramsgate do not start from Charing Cross, only Cannon Street and Blackfriars. [[User:Peter Shearan|Peter Shearan]] 14:55, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

I don't think [[Kent Coast Line]] would be a good name to describe the London-Chatham-Ramsgate/Dover route, since this could be confused with the Folkestone-Dover-Ramsgate route which also runs by the coast. Perhaps [[London to Dover via Chatham Line]] would be a better title? [[User:Our Phellap|Our Phellap]] 15:56, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

This article id defiantly mis-titled. The trains leave London (primarily Victoria) and '''divide''' at Faversham into Dover Priory and Ramsgate trains. Thus the [[Kent Coast Line]] and this ([[Chatham Main Line]]) defiantly need merging. [[User:Pickle UK|Pickle]] 14:05, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

See my big peice on [[Talk:South Eastern Trains|SET talk page]] --[[User:Pickle UK|Pickle]] 21:24, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

:: In light of the above i have begun a big overhaul - comment, revisions, etc welcome. As you can see I've extended the start to cover the route to Victoria and included the Catford Loop option. At the other end I've stated it as "Chatham Main Line - Ramsgate Branch" and "Chatham Main Line - Dover Branch". Where this leaves the [[Kent Coast Line]] article is an issue i haven't got my head round yet.[[User:Pickle UK|Pickle]] 02:15, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

==Name==
Upon reading "The Future of Rail in Kent" by Kent CC and Medway UA ([http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:s_-WzGXk6KIJ:www.medway.gov.uk/oco20030128r-7.pdf+railway+%22Rochester+bridge%22+congestion&hl=en&gl=uk&ct=clnk&cd=1]). It deatials the lines passing through medway as the "The Mid-Kent Line" and "[[North Kent Line]]". At somepoint this article may have to be renamed? The atricle also mentions an "East Kent Line", and seams to reffer to "Ashford to Margate via Canturbury" and "Ashford to Margate via Folkestone and Dover". [[User:Pickle UK|Pickle]] 13:43, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

:This is a very late reply, but it may help. The North Kent Line diagram is absolutely correct except that it has too much on either end. In reality it goes from St Johns to Strood, but the map shows London terminals to St Johns, and Strood to Gillingham.

:However the Mid Kent line is nowhere near that lot. Nowadays it runs from Ladywell as far as Elmers End (formerly it continued to Addiscombe).
:As always, Quail map#5 tells all. [[User:Ivor the driver|Ivor the driver]] ([[User talk:Ivor the driver|talk]]) 09:29, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

==Map==
The "closed curve" shown on the map at Canterbury is the wrong way round. Trains coming from London could use the curve to go to Canterbury West and Ramsgate, but not towards Ashford as the map current ly indicates.  [[User:Four Ceps|Four Ceps]] 23:11, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

: I have amended the map to show the correct sense of the closed curve.[[User:Four Ceps|Four Ceps]] 19:09, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

:: Cheers mate ;) I made this routemap some time ago, and the coding has improved and i need to sit down and redo this to exploit the new code ;) [[User:Pickle UK|Pickle]] 19:31, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

== St Pancras ==

No matter where trains now start to get to this line, is the modern connection to St Pancras really part of the Chatham Main Line?--[[User:SilasW|SilasW]] ([[User talk:SilasW|talk]]) 12:56, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
: Absolutely not. This is a common mistake on Wiki where someone is confusing a service with a line. The Chatham Main Line has absolutely nothing to do with Bedford or St Pancras which are on the Midland Main Line and Moorgate Line respectively. The map is (currently) showing the route correctly. The text is wrong.-- [[User:Fu Manchuchu|Fu Manchuchu]] ([[User talk:Fu Manchuchu|talk]]) 04:59, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

==RDT Map==
Chatham Dockyard branch is now closed-Please amend[[User:Steamybrian2|Steamybrian2]] ([[User talk:Steamybrian2|talk]]) 21:22, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

== RfC about the name ==

<s>Should the article be moved to "Chatham Main Line" or "Chatham main line",<br>
Sources and books use "Main Line"[https://www.bluecode.org.uk/catalog/ts/routes/chatham-main-line-london-victoria-gillingham/][https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1829252#map=10/51.3883/0.3937][http://www.rail.co.uk/rail-news/2016/easter-rail-works/][https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=wAf1AwAAQBAJ&pg=PA177&dq=%22Chatham+main+line%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiA05iQ7I3VAhVILcAKHToRAT0Q6AEILDAB#v=onepage&q=%22Chatham%20main%20line%22&f=false][https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=wAf1AwAAQBAJ&pg=PA177&dq=%22Chatham+main+line%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiA05iQ7I3VAhVILcAKHToRAT0Q6AEILDAB#v=onepage&q=%22Chatham%20main%20line%22&f=false][https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=iwR7h3jN7_8C&pg=PA444&dq=%22Chatham+main+line%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiA05iQ7I3VAhVILcAKHToRAT0Q6AEIMTAC#v=onepage&q=%22Chatham%20main%20line%22&f=false][https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=CACSpMn3mUIC&pg=PA316&dq=%22Chatham+main+line%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiA05iQ7I3VAhVILcAKHToRAT0Q6AEINjAD#v=onepage&q=%22Chatham%20main%20line%22&f=false][https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=fSxxhsVVuiIC&pg=PA16&dq=%22Chatham+main+line%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiA05iQ7I3VAhVILcAKHToRAT0Q6AEIQDAF#v=onepage&q=%22Chatham%20main%20line%22&f=false] and "main line" [http://www.kentnews.co.uk/news/review-launched-into-hs1-impact-on-regular-rail-services-1-971259][http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2015/02/ghost-signs-of-brixton-our-sons-menswear-electric-avenue/][https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=-W5dAAAAIAAJ&q=%22Chatham+main+line%22&dq=%22Chatham+main+line%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiA05iQ7I3VAhVILcAKHToRAT0Q6AEIPDAE][https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=_DPpAAAAMAAJ&q=%22Chatham+main+line%22&dq=%22Chatham+main+line%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiA05iQ7I3VAhVILcAKHToRAT0Q6AEIRjAG][https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=bRNCAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA682&dq=%22Chatham+main+line%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiA05iQ7I3VAhVILcAKHToRAT0Q6AEISjAH#v=onepage&q=%22Chatham%20main%20line%22&f=false][https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=GYMNAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA261&dq=%22Chatham+main+line%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiA05iQ7I3VAhVILcAKHToRAT0Q6AEITzAI#v=onepage&q=%22Chatham%20main%20line%22&f=false][https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=PoUbAAAAIAAJ&q=%22Chatham+main+line%22&dq=%22Chatham+main+line%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiA05iQ7I3VAhVILcAKHToRAT0Q6AEIVTAJ][https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=OSJWAAAAMAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=Chatham+main+line] –[[User:Davey2010|<span style="color: blue;">'''Davey'''</span><span style="color: orange;">'''2010'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Davey2010|<span style="color: navy;">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sup> 13:00, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

:Pinging {{u|Dicklyon}} who reverted the move. –[[User:Davey2010|<span style="color: blue;">'''Davey'''</span><span style="color: orange;">'''2010'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Davey2010|<span style="color: navy;">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sup> 13:01, 16 July 2017 (UTC)</s>

Please revert this RFC and subsequent secstions outside of it, and use the process at [[WP:RM]] instead.  Thanks. [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 18:56, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
:Yes; I agree with what Dicklyon said (we don't always agree, but in this case we do): this is a [[WP:RM]] matter, not [[WP:RFC]]. Also, ''if'' a RfC was truly warranted, the level 2 sections below should have been level 3 subsections. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] &#x1f339; ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 19:46, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

== Requested move 16 July 2017 ==

<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
:''The following is a closed discussion of a [[WP:requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]]. No further edits should be made to this section. ''

The result of the move request was: '''Not moved.''' / Withdrawn- I hadn't realised there was already a discussion at [[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_UK_Railways/Archive_39#Moving_forward_on_Line_case]] <s>where RedRose and Dicklyon are seemingly on a mission to decap everything thus making this RM a complete waste of time.</s> –[[User:Davey2010|<span style="color: blue;">'''Davey'''</span><span style="color: orange;">'''2010'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Davey2010|<span style="color: navy;">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sup> 02:25, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
----


[[:Chatham main line]] → {{no redirect|Chatham Main Line}} – Should the article be moved to "Chatham Main Line" or "Chatham main line",<br>
Sources and books use "Main Line"[https://www.bluecode.org.uk/catalog/ts/routes/chatham-main-line-london-victoria-gillingham/][https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1829252#map=10/51.3883/0.3937][http://www.rail.co.uk/rail-news/2016/easter-rail-works/][https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=wAf1AwAAQBAJ&pg=PA177&dq=%22Chatham+main+line%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiA05iQ7I3VAhVILcAKHToRAT0Q6AEILDAB#v=onepage&q=%22Chatham%20main%20line%22&f=false][https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=wAf1AwAAQBAJ&pg=PA177&dq=%22Chatham+main+line%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiA05iQ7I3VAhVILcAKHToRAT0Q6AEILDAB#v=onepage&q=%22Chatham%20main%20line%22&f=false][https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=iwR7h3jN7_8C&pg=PA444&dq=%22Chatham+main+line%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiA05iQ7I3VAhVILcAKHToRAT0Q6AEIMTAC#v=onepage&q=%22Chatham%20main%20line%22&f=false][https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=CACSpMn3mUIC&pg=PA316&dq=%22Chatham+main+line%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiA05iQ7I3VAhVILcAKHToRAT0Q6AEINjAD#v=onepage&q=%22Chatham%20main%20line%22&f=false][https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=fSxxhsVVuiIC&pg=PA16&dq=%22Chatham+main+line%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiA05iQ7I3VAhVILcAKHToRAT0Q6AEIQDAF#v=onepage&q=%22Chatham%20main%20line%22&f=false] and "main line" [http://www.kentnews.co.uk/news/review-launched-into-hs1-impact-on-regular-rail-services-1-971259][http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2015/02/ghost-signs-of-brixton-our-sons-menswear-electric-avenue/][https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=-W5dAAAAIAAJ&q=%22Chatham+main+line%22&dq=%22Chatham+main+line%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiA05iQ7I3VAhVILcAKHToRAT0Q6AEIPDAE][https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=_DPpAAAAMAAJ&q=%22Chatham+main+line%22&dq=%22Chatham+main+line%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiA05iQ7I3VAhVILcAKHToRAT0Q6AEIRjAG][https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=bRNCAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA682&dq=%22Chatham+main+line%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiA05iQ7I3VAhVILcAKHToRAT0Q6AEISjAH#v=onepage&q=%22Chatham%20main%20line%22&f=false][https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=GYMNAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA261&dq=%22Chatham+main+line%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiA05iQ7I3VAhVILcAKHToRAT0Q6AEITzAI#v=onepage&q=%22Chatham%20main%20line%22&f=false][https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=PoUbAAAAIAAJ&q=%22Chatham+main+line%22&dq=%22Chatham+main+line%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiA05iQ7I3VAhVILcAKHToRAT0Q6AEIVTAJ][https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=OSJWAAAAMAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=Chatham+main+line] –[[User:Davey2010|<span style="color: blue;">'''Davey'''</span><span style="color: orange;">'''2010'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Davey2010|<span style="color: navy;">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sup> 20:21, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

===Survey===
:''Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with'' <code><nowiki>*'''Support'''</nowiki></code> ''or'' <code><nowiki>*'''Oppose'''</nowiki></code>'', then sign your comment with'' <code><nowiki>~~~~</nowiki></code>''. Since [[Wikipedia:Polling is not a substitute for discussion|polling is not a substitute for discussion]], please explain your reasons, taking into account [[Wikipedia:Article titles|Wikipedia's policy on article titles]].''

* '''Oppose''' – It's not a proper name.  When nom [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chatham_main_line&diff=790007498&oldid=788071153 moved it] with edit summary "''Moved to caps so is consistent with other similar articles''", the only similar article it mentioned was [[South Eastern main line]], which is already consistent. If you look at better sources (e.g. [https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Chatham+Main+Line%22&source=lnms&tbm=bks&biw=1219&bih=640 books], [https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Chatham+Main+Line%22&tbm=nws&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj3rITo1Y7VAhXpjlQKHVqGC80Q_AUIDCgD&biw=1219&bih=640&dpr=1.1 news]), you see that lowercase is common enough, meaning it's not generally treated as a proper name.  Per [[WP:NCCAPS]] and [[MOS:CAPS]], we avoid caps in such cases. [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 20:47, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

*'''Oppose'''—Davey, I agree with Dicklyon: the evidence of usage as a proper name is very thin. [[User:Tony1|<span style="color:darkgreen;">'''Tony'''</span>]] [[User talk:Tony1|<span style="color:darkgreen;">(talk) </span>]] 02:11, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
:*Both names have equal usuage as shown above so I fail to see how it's thin at all.... –[[User:Davey2010|<span style="color: blue;">'''Davey'''</span><span style="color: orange;">'''2010'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Davey2010|<span style="color: navy;">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sup> 02:17, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

===Discussion===
:''Any additional comments:''

:I originally set this up as an RFC[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Chatham_main_line&diff=790887894&oldid=790887779] however editors believed RM was better. –[[User:Davey2010|<span style="color: blue;">'''Davey'''</span><span style="color: orange;">'''2010'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Davey2010|<span style="color: navy;">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sup> 20:21, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
::Thanks for switching it to the usual process. [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 20:47, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
:::{{u|Dicklyon}}, No worries, If I'm honest I did debate between the 2 however I wasn't really proposing moving if that makes sense Anyway no worries, Thanks, –[[User:Davey2010|<span style="color: blue;">'''Davey'''</span><span style="color: orange;">'''2010'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Davey2010|<span style="color: navy;">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sup> 20:52, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
----
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]].  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a [[Wikipedia:Move review|move review]]. No further edits should be made to this section.''</div><!-- Template:RM bottom -->
:{{replyto|Davey2010}} Please indicate exactly what makes you believe that I am "on a mission to decap everything". --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] &#x1f339; ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 08:06, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
::Also, the Wikipedia consensus, per [[MOS:CAPS]], is to avoid unnecessary capitalization, which is why these RMs – with the participation of various editors with distance from both the rail/transport articles and the MoS – keep going lower-case.  The usage in sources is mixed, and when it is, WP avoids the capitalization as unnecessary. If it were considered necessary in the real world, then usage would not be mixed in reliable sources.  Usage being mixed does not amount to "either way is okay, so I want my way" when we have a site-wide rule for the other way.  "Blaming" two editors for a {{em|community}} result (and a common sense one) that you don't like is not useful. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 22:02, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
:::That's bollocks for a start - I'm not blaming anyone nor have I said "I don't like it" - I wanted to get a wide range of comments instead these 2 appear so you can understand my frustration but regardless - It's closed, I've struck the statement so can we all go back to doing something useful. –[[User:Davey2010|<span style="color: blue;">'''Davey'''</span><span style="color: orange;">'''2010'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Davey2010|<span style="color: navy;">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sup> 16:29, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
::::Let me get one thing clear: in the thread linked by {{user|Davey2010}} (i.e. [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK Railways/Archive 39#Moving forward on Line case]]), I made exactly ''one'' comment; it is dated 10:36, 9 March 2017 (UTC). It is in response to Dicklyon's post dated 04:08, 9 March 2017 (UTC), and is in clear ''opposition'' to what they had intended to do (i.e. to move pages to decapitalise the word "line" without discussing). So '''absolutely no way''' am I "on a mission to decap everything" (I also offer [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=move&user=Redrose64&offset=20170126010000&limit=2 this] as evidence). So, Davey2010, {{diff|User talk:Davey2010|prev|791175636|if you don't want me to demand an explanation}} (if not an outright apology), don't libel me in the first place. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] &#x1f339; ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 22:59, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
:::::{{u|Redrose64}} - I sincerely apologise, You did indeed make one comment so it was my error and so I apologise for the comment, Thanks, –[[User:Davey2010|<span style="color: blue;">'''Davey'''</span><span style="color: orange;">'''2010'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Davey2010|<span style="color: navy;">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sup> 23:27, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
::::::{{ty}} --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] &#x1f339; ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 00:02, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
:::::I thought that was pretty wacky, too.  I'm also not on that mission, and I thank RedRose for being one of those most willing to discuss line capitalization, but he was clearly not (usually) pulling in the same direction that I was. [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 03:38, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
As to nom's comment above that "Both names have equal usage as shown above so I fail to see how it's thin at all....", that's the point.  When case is mixed, we default to lower, per [[MOS:CAPS]]. [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 03:40, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

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== Move discussion in progress ==

There is a move discussion in progress on [[Talk:South Western main line#Requested move 20 July 2021|Talk:South Western main line]] which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. <!-- Talk:South Western main line crosspost --> —[[User:RMCD bot|RMCD bot]] 11:46, 20 July 2021 (UTC)