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A commonly used phrase that just doesn’t seem right

Hello!

I have lately been reading a lot of Wikipedia biography articles, and looking at the genealogies within them (I know, I’m weird) but there is a particular phrase that just icks me a bit. After doing a search, I think I have a few examples to illustrate my example. For example, on the page Safavid family tree (permalink), the following is stated:

The great-grandson of Sheyk Safi, Sheik Joneyd, got married with Khadijeh Khanoum sister of Uzun Hassan and daughter of Ali Beg by his wife Theodora of Trebizond, daughter of Alexios IV of Trebizond. Heydar, son of Joneyd, married Katherina who was a daughter of Uzun Hassan by his wife Theodora, daughter of a Bagrationi Georgian princess and John IV of Trebizond.

Now, I don’t know about you, and I don’t mean to be a ‘politically correct prescriptivist’, but the use of ‘child of [FATHER] by his wife [MOTHER]’ seems a bit… misogynistic? Like I get it that sometimes it the father was more historically notable or important than the mother, but the use of ‘by’ connotes a kind of instrumentality. Recall this article-section on the instrumental case (permalink), where it says:

The use of ‘with’ is in my opinion kind of bordering on kind of objectification. I believe that it would be better to instead use ‘child of [FATHER] with his wife [MOTHER]’, or ‘child of [FATHER] and [MOTHER]’ if you want to forgo emphasising the father at all. Thus:

The great-grandson of Sheyk Safi, [[Shaykh Junayd|Sheik Joneyd]], got married with Khadijeh Khanoum sister of [[Uzun Hassan]] and daughter of Ali Beg by his wifeand Theodora of [[Empire of Trebizond|Trebizond]], daughter of [[Alexios IV of Trebizond]]. Heydar, son of Joneyd, married Katherina who was a daughter of Uzun Hassan by his wifeand [[Despina Khatun|Theodora]], daughter of a [[Bagrationi]] [[Georgian people|Georgian]] princess and [[John IV of Trebizond]].

Of course, there are a lot more examples.

I think it would be nice if we could discuss whether we should be using the phrase ‘by his wife’. Of course it probably wouldn’t be a good idea to change every single article using this phrase, but maybe a discussion could lead to something.

One last thing: if it turns out this has already been discussed before, or there is a place where this would be better discussed (for example another WikiProject or the Wikipedia:Village pump or whatever), then tell me please.

Thanks! - delta (talk) 16:52, 15 April 2025 (UTC)

I agree with your point entirely and all new articles should absolutely avoid such language. If they are being editted anyway, then that language should also be changed to something less offensive. Also, the other errors in grammer should be fixed, such as "got married to", which is extremely awkward sounding. It should simply say that person A married person B. 174.3.216.108 (talk) 02:27, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

As well as "got married to" , the phrase "got married with" is also bad grammer. It should just say that person A married person B. 2604:3D09:8878:4500:D5F0:FAA:CA06:B2EC (talk) 04:10, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

Totally agree with this; "Got married" totally "got" under my skin. For the parents: I prefer this type format: His parents were Mary Louisa (née Jones) and Thomas Alexander Smith. It is not passive voice puts both parents on equal footing, and also allows the addition of the father's profession, as in: ...Thomas Alexander Smith, a preacher. If both parents have a profession, I used a new sentence instead. Rublamb (talk) 07:30, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Robert Prevost (disambiguation)#Requested move 8 May 2025

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Good article reassessment for Nancy Pelosi

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Good article reassessment for Alfred Döblin

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Good article reassessment for Fandi Ahmad

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Requesting review for draft page

Requesting review for Draft:Hafiz Abdur Rauf article. This article has various credible sources attached. I just wikify (talk) 09:09, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Pentagón Jr.#Requested move May 6 2025

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Request for Review: Gian-Piero Ringel (Film Producer)

Hello everyone,

I have updated the article on the German film producer Gian-Piero Ringel:

Gian-Piero Ringel

The article is based on verifiable sources and follows the style of comparable biographies in the "Film Producer" category. I would appreciate a review, feedback, or any suggestions for improvement. Many thanks!

Best regards Cinekultur (talk) 12:35, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Murali Kartik

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Good article reassessment for Pop Warner

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Featured article review for Edward Low

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Good article reassessment for Tiberius

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Good article reassessment for Yaropolk Iziaslavich

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Good article reassessment for Han Sai Por

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Requested move at Talk:Francis Pangilinan#Requested move 13 May 2025

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Unknown year of death?

A question came up at DYK about how to handle somebody who we're pretty sure has died but we don't have a year of death. Suggestions would be appreciated at Template:Did you know nominations/Sri Jumahaliah Hanifa. RoySmith (talk) 15:17, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

Put a question mark, if its that obvious, the reader can figure out they are dead. Slatersteven (talk) 15:24, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

If you have a notion of the year, it would be correct to use circa 1980 Rublamb (talk) 07:32, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Colt McCoy

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Requested move at Talk:Chao Ratchabut Wongtawan Na Chiang Mai#Requested move 16 May 2025

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Good article reassessment for Béla H. Bánáthy

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Good article reassessment for Marc Ravalomanana

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Good article reassessment for Wyatt Earp

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Good article reassessment for Billy Talent

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Help on draft article

Hi! I'm working on an article on Draft:Sanket Goel, an Indian academician. The draft had been approved but then reverted back to draft on the basis of COI. Can anybody please help improve the article and getting it published again? Thank you! Shashy 922 (talk) 05:38, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Ian Kinsler

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Discussion at Talk:Christopher Reeve § Juilliard

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Discussion Re: Lead Image for Andrei Gromyko

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Good article reassessment for Invader (artist)

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Good article reassessment for Flavian dynasty

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Women in Red June 2025

File:WiR Pride June 2022.png Women in Red | June 2025, Vol 11, Issue 6, Nos. 326, 327, 339, 340 Online events: New: LGBTQ+ | Alphabet run K & L Continuing, year-long initiatives: #1day1woman | Music Announcements: Who are the most overlooked and interesting Women in Red? We've no idea, but we're putting together our list of the 100 most interesting ex-Women in Red. We are creating the list to celebrate 10 years of Women in Red and we hope to present it at Wikimania. We are ignoring the obvious, so do you have a name or subject we should consider? Can you suggest a DYK style hook? If you are shy about editing that page, you are welcome to add ideas and comments on the talk page. The World Destubathon, 16 June - 13 July, 2025 Progress ("moving the needle"): Statistics available via Humaniki tool. Thank you if you contributed one or more of the 1,492 articles during this period! 19 May 2025: 20.114% of EN-WP biographies are about women (2,066,280; 415,618 women) 21 Apr 2025: 20.090% (2,061,363 bios; 414,126 women) Tip of the month: Every language Wikipedia has its own policies regarding notability and reliable sources. Before translating an article from one language Wikipedia into English Wikipedia, research the subject and verify that the translated article will meet English Wikipedia's policy requirements. Other ways to participate: Become a member. You can always opt-out of notifications. Join the conversations on our talkpage. Help us plan future events and add any general ideas on developing the project. Follow us on social media: Instagram | Pinterest

--Lajmmoore (talk 06:02, 29 May 2025 (UTC) via MassMessaging

Discussion at Talk:James A. Beckel Jr. § Article reformatting?

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Good article reassessment for Edward Condon

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Jack Sheppard FAR

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Discussion at Talk:The Chicks § Reorganization for potential GA

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AfD - Damien Costas

Hi all — there’s an AfD discussion ongoing about Damien Costas (link to AfD), which has drawn reliable coverage from outlets like The Sydney Morning Herald, Crikey, The Guardian, WAtoday, and AFR. I’m not the creator, but I think it meets WP:GNG and would appreciate neutral eyes. Thank you! CharlotteMilic (talk) 12:21, 1 June 2025 (UTC)

Non-notable awards

There is a discussion at Talk:Nina Hartley#Free Speech Coalition awards about whether non-notable awards should be included in a biography. Your input is welcome. Magnolia677 (talk) 19:06, 1 June 2025 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Ian McKellen

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Good article reassessment for Gloria Steinem

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Good article reassessment for Alan Kulwicki

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Good article reassessment for David Falk

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Discussion at Talk:James Gordon (poet) § Requested move 3 June 2025

File:Symbol watching blue lashes high contrast.svg You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:James Gordon (poet) § Requested move 3 June 2025. Proposed move to common name of Jim Grahame Peaceray (talk) 19:28, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Darius the Great

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Good article reassessment for Anthony Ashley-Cooper, 10th Earl of Shaftesbury

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Request for Draft Review:Adam Schor

Hi there — I recently submitted a draft for a biography of American television producer Adam Schor, who has worked on series such as *Ready to Love* (OWN), *The Rap Game* (Lifetime), and *House of Sims* (Netflix UK).

The draft includes multiple reliable third-party references (e.g. BroadwayWorld, IMDb, Lifetime, Shorty Awards) and was written in a neutral tone per BLP guidelines.

If any members of this project would be willing to review or offer feedback, I’d really appreciate the help.

Thanks! AdamSchor (talk) 23:32, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Buster Posey

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Dimebag Darrell

There is a discussion on the murder information in the infobox of the Dimebag Darrell article. It can be found at Talk:Dimebag Darrell#About the cause of death in the infobox. Input from project members would be very much appreciated. Thanks, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 02:07, 8 June 2025 (UTC)

Ankit Fadia request

Greetings, editors. I am Ankit Fadia, the topic of this article. I have two open requests (1, 2) that editors interested in cleaning up biographies may be interested in. I'll be over at the article Talk if you have any questions. Thanks. Afadia (talk) 07:46, 8 June 2025 (UTC)

Moe Berg at FAR

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Request for editorial assistance: Draft on Surya Devan

Hello, I’m requesting neutral editor feedback or possible adoption for a draft article about Surya Devan, a Singapore-based media strategist and healthcare advocate.

The original draft was deleted under CSD G11. I have acknowledged the COI and am now working only in user space (once restored) to ensure neutrality and policy compliance.

If anyone is willing to review or advise, your help would be appreciated. Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by SuryaDevanE (talk • contribs) 19:50, 9 June 2025 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Heather Mills

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Thomas Barber (1771–1843)

British portrait painter. I can find some sources on him, but not that many. Mostly several British books covering the history of British painting, which dedicates some sections to him. So is he notable enough for an article? Harizotoh9 (talk) 04:04, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

Sources for birthdates of BLPs

@Deb and I have been discussing sources for birthdates of living people. My interpretation of Wikipedia:BLPPRIMARY is that we should not use Companies House records (or other records where they have been obliged to reveal their birth date) as a source for a living person's birthdate (year and month), on the grounds that we only use sources where they have voluntarily revealed their age or birthdate, respecting their privacy. Deb disagrees. How do other editors interpret this policy? PamD 16:26, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

WP:BLPPRIVACY, a little further on in the same policy document under the heading "Presumption in favor of privacy", provides "Template:Tq" I don't think Companies House records etc qualify as "widely published". PamD 16:34, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

It seems obvious to me that the register of company directors does qualify, whereas "Who's Who" is an unreliable primary source. Deb (talk) 18:22, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

@Deb I don't think a Companies House record is "widely published", and it certainly isn't "such that it may reasonably be inferred that the subject does not object...". If we don't accept dates of birth from "Who's Who", then I don't know what else we can trust for this info. PamD 14:10, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

I often use online records from Companies House and FreeBMD at article Talk pages to suggest, or narrow down, or possibly confirm or rule out birth details. But I tend not use them in the text of articles, for the reasons given by Pam. However, while original (and primary) records like GRO records are certainly not "widely published", I would argue that more or less anything that appears online is widely published. People who become company officers mist realise that the month and year of birth is in the public domain, and will remain so even after they die. If the guideline intends to use "widely" to mean "published in multiple places" that ought to be clarified? Martinevans123 (talk) 14:27, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

Thanks. This explains the situation well. I don't think you can get information more widely published than having it readily available on a government agency's website. Deb (talk) 18:21, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

We need to be careful about using information from government agencies. WP:BLPPRIMARY says, "Do not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person. Do not use public records that include personal details, such as date of birth, ..." Eddie Blick (talk) 00:01, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

I believe that section is talking about potentially controversial statements, such as "X has previous convictions". Deb (talk) 12:48, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

Sometimes I find this info in interviews or articles where the age of the person is give. While that only gives an approximately birth year, it does meet widely published. Rublamb (talk) 18:23, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

Template:Birth based on age as of date is useful in that situation. Using the age stated in the source, the template {{Birth based on age as of date |age |year|month|day |noage=1}} produces an output of two possible years, such as "born 1978 or 1979". I use that form of the template in an article's lead. Removing the "|noage=1" parameter adds a two-year age range, which I use in infoboxes. Eddie Blick (talk) 00:13, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

And yet it's far more likely to be inaccurate than Companies House. Deb (talk) 12:48, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

Featured article review for J. K. Rowling

User:Adam Cuerden has nominated J. K. Rowling for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" in regards to the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 13:30, 14 June 2025 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Brian Wilson

There's an important discussion regarding how we should handle the Death and tributes section of the Brian Wilson article. The discussion can be found at Talk:Brian Wilson#Death section. Input from project members would be very much appreciated. Thanks, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 13:29, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Yao Yuanjun#Requested move 30 May 2025

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Help with alternative Nobel laureate Legesse Wolde-Yohannes

The page Legesse Wolde-Yohannes could do with some help, and merits it because he is a winner of the Right Livelihood Award aka the alternative Nobel Prize. The current content is mainly from Legesse Wolde (yes, a different page) which was created by a student wikieditor in November 2024 and left largely unsourced; there was the page Legesse Wolde-Yohannes but that had languished as a stub since 2011. I have added a couple of sources, but cannot find sources for the material the student added and, of course, they have moved on. The content may be right, so I am reluctant to just delete it.

This should be a stronger page, after all this type of information should be what Wikipedia is for. However, I think it needs more tools than I have. (N.B., I also posted for help to WikiProjects Plant & Ethiopia, one never knows.) Ldm1954 (talk) 18:38, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Joey Barton

Joey Barton has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Z1720 (talk) 22:59, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Oliver Ryan#Requested move 8 June 2025

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Disagreement at Draft talk:Tabish Hashmi

Hi all. There has been an active disagreement on the draft talk, based upon the potention article about a public figure in Pakistan. Any experienced editor is most welcome to modify the draft, suggest any modifications, and/or to present their comments if the draft meets the Wikipedia guidelines to be published in the mainspace. Thank you! M. Billoo 16:11, 17 June 2025 (UTC)

Duplicate articles Jim Brady / James M. Brady

It appears that James M. Brady and Jim Brady (journalist) are the same person? The Jim Brady article is newer and better sourced. Not sure what to do with this? Caddyshack01 (talk) 03:00, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Luigi#Requested move 13 June 2025

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Request for Review - James Blake (Television Presenter)

Hi there,

I’ve submitted a new draft article about James Blake, a BBC presenter and documentary filmmaker. The article includes references to two BBC documentaries, national coverage, and a Royal Television Society Breakthrough Award. Reliable, independent sources are cited throughout.

I can see that his work is shown on RTE ireland, Now TV in china and Amazon Prime in Spain. Should i reference this with citations also?

I’d appreciate any feedback or review support from editors involved in WikiProject Biography.

Thank you! Nomadfrau912 (talk) 16:17, 20 June 2025 (UTC)