Wiki143:WikiProject Stub sorting/Proposals/Archive/February 2008

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Script error: No such module "Archive". This is an archive of discussions from Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting/Proposals for the month of February 2008. Please move completed February discussions to this page as they occur, add discussion headers to each proposal showing the result, and leave incomplete discussions on the Proposals page. After February, the remainder of the discussions will be moved to this page, whether stub types have been created or not.

Those who create a stub template/cat should be responsible for moving the discussion here and listing the stub type in the archive summary.

Stub proposers please note: Items tagged as "nocreate" or "no consensus" are welcome for re-proposal if and when circumstances are auspicious.

Audio technology stub

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed creation of the stub template and/or category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was create.
Somebody moved one of my articles from {{tech-stub}} to {{electronics-stub}}, but it was a poor fit. {{Tech-stub}} is very large, so articles do need to be moved out. A new sub-category of {{tech-stub}}, {{audio-tech-stub}}, would be of benefit. HairyWombat (talk) 21:49, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

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Cycle races

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The result of the debate was create.
Currently about 160 articles in recursive Template:Cl and marked as a Template:Tl. Propose Template:Tl and Template:Cl as sub-cat of Template:Cl. SeveroTC 00:12, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

  • See no problems with this, and cycling stubs could be cut down a bit. Support. Waacstats (talk) 08:55, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
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2 more sports cats

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The result of the debate was create.
2 more templates pass 60 speedy propose

Waacstats (talk) 20:02, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

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Upmerged Animalia phylum templates

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The result of the debate was create.
Template:Cl is nearing the point where it would need splitting, but the demise of StubSense makes finding good candidates a priori problematical. I suggest we create an upmerged template for those phyla of Animalia that have existing categories. Ctenophora has less than 60 known species and thus is unlikely to ever obtain a stub category of its own, but may be worth creating an upmerged template nonetheless. This would give us the following:

Suggestions or comments? Caerwine Caer’s whines 03:36, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

While wandering around adding my brand-new parasite stub to things I realized that there is a need for a platyhelminthes stub. I was going to send you a message, but then remembered that you had proposed these stubs and lo and behold you've got it right there. So, I wanted to say that I support all the proposed stubs listed here. Plcoffey (talk) 17:57, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
How do you feel about flatworm v platyhelminthes? I think prefer platyhelminthes, because flatworm is a misleading common name... Plcoffey (talk) 19:45, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
We try to use the singular in stub template names so a Template:Tl as a redirect is worthwhile. But since the corresponding article is Flatworm, I can't see eradicating Template:Tl. Caerwine Caer’s whines 20:03, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Sounds fair. Plcoffey (talk) 22:58, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Created all of the above, plus since they were large enough, the categories Template:Cl, Template:Cl, Template:Cl, Template:Cl, and Template:Cl were all created. The only new template that is even close to getting a category of its own is Template:Tl (and its redirect Template:Tl) which are on 45 stubs at present. Caerwine Caer’s whines 01:41, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

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Parasite Stub

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The result of the debate was create.
I propose the creation of a parasite related stub template (Template:Tl). This would be applicable to all plants and animals that have a parasitic lifestyle. It would be applicable to anything in the category Parasites. For example:

to name a few. These pages are not only related, but in dire need of some work. A stub template that linked them would encourage users to add information to these vital pages. Plcoffey (talk) 19:30, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

First off, is there a count? Secondly, there was once a Template:Tl, voted to be kept back in 2005, but I can find no record of its deletion. Anybody remember? Her Pegship (tis herself) 20:03, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
The log line shows "08:08, August 8, 2005 Grutness (Talk) deleted "Template:Parasite-stub" ‎ (deleted as per sfd vote (4-0") - Dravecky (talk) 23:40, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for digging that up, and there is a good point made in the brief discussion: this would cut across existing types by kingdom, phyla, etc. Her Pegship (tis herself) 00:11, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
(after edit conflict)Indeed so - the debate, what there was of it, is here. The same argument holds as then - we do split things by their kingdom/class/order/genus, rather than their lifestyle - certainly enough time has elapsed that it might again be worth examining whether this is useful, though. Grutness...wha? 00:17, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
It's self evident that these organisms are important enough to warrant quality articles,since they influence the lives of billions of humans and animals every day, and play important roles in everyday life. However, these organisms haven't been getting the attention they deserve as far as the creation and expansion of articles. The problem lies in the fact that as a protist Plasmodium isn't that unique, but as a parasite it's incredibly important to the lives of millions of people. This holds true for most parasites, the thing that makes them important is their lifestyle, and so if they're to get the attention they need, it's going to have to be through their distinction as parasites. (Her Pegship,if you can define "count" for me, I'll make one and get back to you) Plcoffey (talk) 01:22, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
The usual threshold is 60 or more existing stub articles for a new stub type to be considered. Since this one cuts across the existing scheme, I think we'd likely prefer a few more than that. Caerwine Caer’s whines 02:14, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
There is now an Incomplete list of parasite related stub articles. This list took me about 45 minutes, it is 185 articles and I feel confident that given more motivation I could double this list easily. This list does not include more than 2 or 3 of the 100+ species of Plasmodium, or any of the fictional parasites. However, this list is more complete than the various parasite categories. Additionally in making this list it became even more clear that this stub template is necessary when I saw closely related species falling into different stub categories (Insect, Veterinary, Medical, Protist...) when a parasite stub would be much more inclusive and relevant. Plcoffey (talk) 06:54, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
As I see it, with that many stubs, there remains one final concern that needs to be addressed, where to fit this into the stub category heirarchy. Do we need/want Template:Cl → Template:Cl, Template:Cl, or both? Caerwine Caer’s whines 21:40, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
They both seem applicable. I would support both. Plcoffey (talk) 03:11, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
With that many, I've no objection, though the usual caveat that this stub should supplement not replace the existing stub types by order/genus applies - i.e., add this as an extra template to articles; don't replace the ones already there. Grutness...wha? 23:00, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Might want to have it replace Template:Tl or Template:Tl if it's been applied to them. but I agree that any taxonomic stubs should be kept. Caerwine Caer’s whines 23:12, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Caerwine, taxonomic stubs should definitely be kept, but Template:Tl or Template:Tl should be replaced. Plcoffey (talk) 03:11, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Sounds fair to me. Grutness...wha? 07:01, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
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Englilsh footballers

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The result of the debate was create.
Continuing the football theme from Matthew. A number of England footballer templates have passed 60. I propose the following templates be de-upmerged to the relevent category

also I propose these 3 as 2 being very close and the third passing 60.

also call for the renaming of the catch all categories to

Waacstats (talk) 17:08, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

And also the Brazilian, i proposed. Matthew_hk tc 20:08, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
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New subcat of South American football club stubs

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed creation of the stub template and/or category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was create.
I have not yet counted the stubs, but the clubs in the Category:Brazilian football clubs, about half of them required expand, and i suggested first to create the tp: Template:Lt Template:Lt

and then see how excat num for a cat. Matthew_hk tc 11:15, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

  • Support templates and given that catscan gives 100 aticles marked with a footy club and argentina template I see no problem there for a cat, Brazil might be a bit closer. Waacstats (talk) 13:04, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
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Madagascar geo stubs

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The result of the debate was create upmerged templates.
Currently Template:Tl/Template:Cl has around 250 articles. As I'm planning to add 1,000+ more in the coming weeks, I would propose splitting it along the provincial borders:

See Provinces of Madagascar for more info. Or should these stubs also include the word "Province"? All these are also towns... – Sadalmelik (talk) 21:40, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

  • not to sure what the names need to be, I'm sure the geo experts will answer that one. I support the idea here and if the articles are going to exist then I suggest creating the templates upmerged to Madagascar geography stubs until the articles do exist, then the categories would be speediable. Waacstats (talk) 23:35, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Agree with Waacstats that these would be worthwhile as upmerged templates for the time being - the categories can be made once it's clear there are 60 stubs in them (which, if you're planning to make that many stubs, shouldn' be long). Regarding the names, the categories should be in the form "X Province geography stubs, since as you point out they are also names of towns and cities (that would also make them match the permcats, e.g., Template:Cl). Hope you don't mind, but I've amended the proposed names accordingly. Don't think there's any need to amend the template names - I doubt we'll need a separate stub for any of the cities any time soon. Grutness...wha? 00:37, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Upmerged templates sound sensible - only Template:Cl has around 60 articles in it at the moment, and I suppose there are could be few non-stubs among those, too. I'm still waiting to see if there are any comments on the stubs I created so far (the text is computer generated based on the census database) – Sadalmelik (talk) 05:32, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
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Template:Cl

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The result of the debate was create.
Finaly, the last speedy-able US state! There are currently 62 articles that link to Template:Tl, which I believe to be sufficient to warrant these particular stubs getting their own category, a sub-category of Category:Western United States radio station stubs. - Dravecky (talk) 21:07, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

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4 more countries

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The result of the debate was create.
In a further attempt to cut down the Olympic medalist categories I propose the following

and 1 possibly contentious one

Waacstats (talk) 00:06, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

  • I'd imagine this would be uncontentious if used only on those who won medals for the historical entity. In those cases, the alternatives seem clearly worse. The first three seem speediable. Alai (talk) 02:44, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
    • That would be the plan but I know i) not everyone likes using historical nations. and ii) problems can be started in that part of the world. Waacstats (talk) 22:41, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
      • Indeed, it might do no harm to wait five days on that one. OTOH, it seems relatively safe to have this to cater for the proverbial half-Serbian/half-Slovenian born in Bosnia who lived in Montenegro, but only ever represented "Yugoslavia" in the Olympics, and potentially bad to start trying to unpick that sort of thing, or indeed to sort on what are in danger of becoming "ethnic" grounds at all. Worst case, surely, is that someone insists that some half-Croatian/half-Croatian born in Croatia who live in Croatia, and only ever represented "Yugoslavia" in the Olympics should be tagged with Template:Tl, but that could arise with or without an extant "Yugoslavia-" template. Alai (talk) 05:11, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
    • Normally I'm not that keen on them, but in cases like this where a person clearly represented a specific historial entity, I've no ral qualms. Grutness...wha? 23:18, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
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3 more sport cats

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The result of the debate was create.
I propose the following cats

Waacstats (talk) 01:31, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

  • Is "Tug of War" usually capitalised like that? And oddly, I thought we already had the other two, under variant names to those. Grutness...wha? 01:46, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
    • Good point about the tug of war cat. As for the other two, I've been sorting sportspeople for along time and the closest I've seen is Template:Tl and Template:Tl. Waacstats (talk) 09:41, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
      • Fair enough. Support all, BTW, assuming usual thresholds etc. Grutness...wha? 19:44, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
        • Usual thresholds will be met. Waacstats (talk) 23:57, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
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2 more sports cats

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The result of the debate was create.
2 more templates pass 60 propose

Waacstats (talk) 23:48, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

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Template:Cl

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The result of the debate was create.
Another template goes passed 60 propose above cat is (speedy) created. Waacstats (talk) 22:59, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

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Template:Cl

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The result of the debate was create.
3 recently approved templates have reached 60. I (speedy?) propose

Waacstats (talk) 11:55, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

  • Speedy! Alai (talk) 02:52, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
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Rename Template:Cl to Template:Cl

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The result of the debate was taken to sfd.
This would reduce ambiguity, fit the normal category naming conventions, and match parent Template:Cl. I further propose the renaming of Template:Cl to Template:Cl and Template:Cl to Template:Cl for the same reasons and to match parents Template:Cl and Template:Cl. - Dravecky (talk) 11:09, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Though I support the move I should point out that renaming is usually handled at WP:SFD, not here, so that it can get more input from outside the stub-sorting community. Grutness...wha? 20:42, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
What the grutty one said. I realize the distinction seems fairly pettifogging, since much the same Usual Suspects will comment either way, but explicit tagging (with Template:Tl) does lend some additional transparency. Alai (talk) 02:55, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Ah. Well that's my next step then. Thanks for the guidance! - Dravecky (talk) 05:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Okay, I think I've done that correctly. (Fingers crossed.) - Dravecky (talk) 05:25, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
"The grutty one"? Grutness...wha? 07:58, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
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Template:Cl

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The result of the debate was create.
This would be a single organizational stub cat for Template:Tl, Template:Tl, and Template:Tl as well a parent cat for Template:Cl and Template:Cl, both currently in the generic Template:Cl category. The content and naming would reflect the cat Template:Cl. - Dravecky (talk) 10:47, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

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Template:Tl

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The result of the debate was create.
For organizing the 24 stub articles currently tagged Template:Tl and lumped into Template:Cl}. This would parallel the function of Template:Tl and Template:Tl plus the naming of market template Template:Tl. - Dravecky (talk) 10:47, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

You forgot the final "s". That should be Template:Tl to correspond with Template:Tl. (It would be Template:Tl if we followed the usual convention of dropping the Islands part for the stub template, but unlike other Islands, the "Islands" is seldom dropped for either the USVI or the BVI in actual usage. "United States Virgins" gets only 98 hits on Google. While most are as expected a shortcut for "United States Virgin Islands", some are from the misspelling "United States Virgins Islands" and others are from "United States virgins". "British Virgins" fares better at 15.3K hits, but that is still paltry compared to the 30.4M hits for "British Virgin Islands".) Caerwine Caer’s whines 18:04, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I've created the stub template, using the name recommended by Caerwine. I haven't tagged any of the appropriate articles yet, though. JPG-GR (talk) 01:00, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I've amended the name above (I hope that's kosher) since I made a typo, not a conscious choice to singularize the word "Islands". Thanks for spotting that, Caerwine. - Dravecky (talk) 02:14, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
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Template:Cl

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The result of the debate was create.
After this, only one more speediable US radio station stub cat to go! (Spoiler alert: it's New Mexico.) There are currently 65 articles that link to Template:Tl, which I believe to be sufficient to warrant these particular stubs getting their own category, a sub-category of Category:Midwestern United States radio station stubs. - Dravecky (talk) 11:00, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

  • As clear-cut as the rest. Alai (talk) 23:42, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
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Template:Tl and Template:Cl

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The result of the debate was create.
Stub for Xbox related articles as a part of WikiProject Xbox. Almost all stub articles in the categories on this page would fall under this stub's category. Thingg⊕⊗ 18:31, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

And given the presence of your WikiProject, only 30 stubs are necessary. Are there 30 stubs on Xbox? If so, it seems reasonable. Certainly as it stands the template is useless - it isn't even upmerged, which it should be. Of course, it would have been had you proposed it here first... proposals aren't just for categories! Grutness...wha? 00:22, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
umm...could you run that by me again? I'm not really familar with how this whole procedure works and I'm not sure what you are saying by "upmerged" and "the template is useless as is". Also, the Xbox project covers all Xbox-related consoles (that's including the Xbox 360), products, and exclusive games so I'm pretty sure that there are more than 30 stubs in that range of articles. Thingg⊕⊗ 01:05, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Basically, the template should have been proposed here for debate prior to being made (in the same way as you've just done with the category). Stub templates, when made, always have a stub category linked to them - which this one currently doesn't have (though one is commented out). Without a category, they can't perform their function of putting stub articles where they can be found by editors. Stub templates can either link to their own distinct categories (such as the one you've proposed) or - if there are only a few stubs - can be upmerged, that is, linked to a more general category until it's obvious there are enough stub articles for a separate category (e.g., Cat:Microsoft stubs or Cat:Videogame stubs). I'm a little concerned that you're suggesting using this stub type for both games and hardware - usually those sort of things get separate stubs types - but a stub-sorter more familiar with the way videogame-realted subjects have been split will be able to weigh in with some thoughts on that. Grutness...wha? 01:31, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Ok, thanks for explaining it to me. Assuming we got enough stubs to make it worth it, would making a sub-category of Category:Microsoft stubs called "Category:Xbox stubs" be ok? Also, the reason I commented out the category thing was because I found this page and I wanted to make sure I do stuff correctly when making a stub (before I made that stub, I wasn't even aware this page existed.) and I didn't think there'd be a problem with making the stub in advance if I didn't put it on any pages (which I haven't). I can just db-author the template if this proposal fails. Thingg⊕⊗ 02:10, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
If the category is created, it should have both Template:Cl and Template:Cl as its parents. Depends on how many of the 75-odd Xbox exclusive games have stub articles. This stub should not be applied to multi-platform games. If you want to gather stub articles for the multi-platform games as well, getting the Xbox Wikiproject talk page template Template:Tl to do assessment in the same manner as a number of other Wikiproject talk page templates would be the appropriate way to go. Caerwine Caer’s whines 03:24, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Great idea, thanks. Also, I am aware that this should only go on games that are exclusive to Xbox consoles. Btw, this stub would go on both Xbox and Xbox 360 related stubs. (like Template:Tl goes on stubs relating to the PS1, PS2 and PS3) Thingg⊕⊗ 19:25, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Yup, that makes sense. The only thing now is to see whether there are enough stubs for a category - which, as I said, is 30 stubs, given that there's a WikiProject. Grutness...wha? 01:27, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
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Template:Cl

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The result of the debate was create.
I propose templates for the three territories

Waacstats (talk) 14:15, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

  • Speedy on pattern, and harmlessness of templatizing. Alai (talk) 16:55, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
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Template:Tl and Template:Cl

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The result of the debate was create.
Category:Polish people stubs is as usual too big (~1000 entries?). I think we could use a Polish version of Template:Tl. Well populated Template:Tl, Template:Tl and Template:Tl could become its subcategories; there are many painters, sculptors and other artists that merit a larger category (Template:Tl probably merits creation, too).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 21:04, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

  • Plausible, at least -- have a size estimate? Alai (talk) 21:57, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
That's strange. If we're following the permanent categories as we should, then Artist is used in categorization for just the visual arts, and this would include the above mentioned painters and scupltors, but not actors, singers, or writers. Caerwine Caer’s whines 23:16, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Concur. Template:Cl, btw. Alai (talk) 23:18, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I note that we have already had Template:Cl for a year now, but for some reason Template:Cl was not added as one of its parents, but has now been fixed. Support adding Template:Tl as at least an upmerged template, and since it already has an existing subcat, support lowering the threshold for category creation to 45 or 50 in this case instead of the usual 60 suspects. Caerwine Caer’s whines 17:39, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Reconcur. Alai (talk) 02:56, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
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Template:Cl

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The result of the debate was create.
After this, only one more Midwest US radio station stub cat to go. (South Dakota, you're on notice!) There are currently 63 articles that link to Template:Tl, which I believe to be sufficient to warrant these particular stubs getting their own category, a sub-category of Category:Midwestern United States radio station stubs. - Dravecky (talk) 11:34, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

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Template:Tl

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The result of the debate was redirected.
Currently the template for the software engineer stubs is Template:Tl whilst the template for the software stubs is Template:Tl. Clearly there is a need for a Template:Tl, but should it be a simple redirect or should it be taken to SFD so that the Template:Tl can be renamed, either with or without keeping the original as a redirect? Caerwine Caer’s whines 00:46, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

  • The article Soft engineering seems to be a good case for SFDing it. Grutness...wha? 01:06, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
  • I've moved it, on the same reasoning as above. If you feel the need, the redirect can be hauled off to SFD, or else left to languish in legacy glory. Alai (talk) 01:38, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
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Template:Cl

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The result of the debate was create.
It's the last of the speediable NE US radio station stub cats! (Delaware and Rhode Island are too small to ever speedy but we'll discuss them in the future.) There are currently 64 articles that link to Template:Tl, which I believe to be sufficient to warrant these particular stubs getting their own category, a sub-category of Category:Northeastern United States radio station stubs. - Dravecky (talk) 00:23, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

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Template:Cl

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The result of the debate was create.
2 templates have passed 60. Speedy propose

and renanme Template:Cl to Template:Cl. Waacstats (talk) 17:28, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Make it so! Alai (talk) 23:36, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
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Template:Cl

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The result of the debate was create.
Another day, another state full of radio stations. I am, perhaps unsurprisingly, almost done with these United States. (Whew!) There are currently 76 articles that link to Template:Tl, which I believe to be sufficient to warrant these particular stubs getting their own category, a sub-category of Category:Northeastern United States radio station stubs. Dravecky (talk) 03:20, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

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Template:Cl

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The result of the debate was create.
The Europeans are the wrong side of 800 anad the rest are getting there. I propose the following

I don't have counts but believe these are the most likely to reach 60 (i hope Catscan is back online soon}. I realise that we rarely split by USSR and South Korea but I feel these will be useful and they do match the perm cats. Waacstats (talk) 13:37, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

  • Haven't we used Soviet- as the template name element for the former, previously? Alai (talk) 16:45, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
    • According to the categories we have Soviet-stub but USSR-bio-stub, -footy-bio-stub, -athletics-bio-stub and figureskating-bio-stub so I went with USSR.Waacstats (talk) 17:19, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
      • Oh. Maybe standardise on one, and redirect the other, then. I don't much mind which. I suppose USSR- would be more noun-form conventional. Alai (talk) 20:52, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
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Template:Cl

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The result of the debate was create.
...and another nation is nursed up to the speediable 60 stub mark. Grutness...wha? 09:58, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

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Template:Cl

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The result of the debate was create.
There are currently 60 articles that link to Template:Tl, which I believe to be sufficient to warrant these particular stubs getting their own category, a sub-category of Category:Western United States radio station stubs. - Dravecky (talk) 00:43, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

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Template:Cl

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The result of the debate was create.
Template has 60+ articles speedy? Waacstats (talk) 13:56, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

  • make that 137 articles. Waacstats (talk) 15:20, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
    • Make that double-speedy :) Grutness...wha? 22:33, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
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Template:Cl

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The result of the debate was create.
Another speediable - the penultimate Asian country to get to 60 geo-stubs. Only Qatar to go. Grutness...wha? 05:54, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

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Split of Template:Cl and Template:Cl

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The result of the debate was create.
Most of the subcategories of Template:Cl are already subdivided by decade. Placekicker (149), Punter (141), Quarterback (420), and Tight end (419) are not. Punter and placekicker are sufficiently small already, but I would like to split quarterback and tight end. Using the structure in Category:Running back stubs, I would like to create Template:Tl, Template:Tl, Template:Tl, etc and Template:Tl, Template:Tl, Template:Tl, etc. If we have an even distribution across the 12 new categories, that's something on the order of 70 articles/category, which brings them down to a manageable size. Thank you. --B (talk) 03:47, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Quarterback and tight end are still fairly small by stub standards (usual size for worrying about a split is 800 stubs), but certainly upmerged templates would be a good idea, with categories split out for any reaching the standard 60 stub threshold. Grutness...wha? 05:05, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Even if we only had separate categories for 1980s, 1970s, and pre-1970s, that would be very much useful from a patrolling standpoint - it groups the college and current NFL players together so that vandalism targets can be more easily checked and hoax/non-notable articles can be removed. --B (talk) 05:18, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
If the average number of stubs per template is around 70, then there should be no problem since several - possibly most - of them are bound to reach the 60-stub threshold. Grutness...wha? 05:54, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Support but don't expect even distribution (just look at other such cats). also support cats over 60 and a catch all for pre-19x0s. Waacstats (talk) 13:44, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
    • Catch-all category, certainly, but please, not a catch-all template. Alai (talk) 23:29, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
      • That is what i meant. Waacstats (talk) 08:59, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
        • I assumed so, just trying to remove scope for third-party confusion. Alai (talk) 18:53, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
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Template:Cl

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The result of the debate was create.
There are currently 70 articles that link to Template:Tl, which I believe to be sufficient to warrant these particular stubs getting their own category, a sub-category of Category:Western United States radio station stubs. - Dravecky (talk) 02:54, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

  • You'll be shocked and stunned to hear me say "speedy", per numerous precedents. :) Alai (talk) 06:01, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
    • Not shocked but definitely thankful for all your hard work. - Dravecky (talk) 10:14, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
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Template:Tl

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The result of the debate was create.
I was surprised to note while sorting just now that we have a Template:Tl but no generic Template:Tl, not even as an upmerged template. Uncertain how many would go in there and I'm not planning on going a hunt for them just now myself, but an upmerged template for now would seem to make at least minimal sense. Caerwine Caer’s whines 22:43, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

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Yet another template upto 60

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The result of the debate was create.
Template:Tl is over 60 articles, propose Template:Cl. Waacstats (talk) 11:10, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

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more football templates and categories

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The result of the debate was create.
I know that a discussion has been taking place re footy/football etc and I will modify this if necessary but Germany, Spain and the Netherlands footballers are all large and Argentina footballers is over sized I propose the following templates with categories if size allows.

Waacstats (talk) 10:32, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

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Another speedy sport cat

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The result of the debate was create.
Template:Tl has reached 68 articles propose Template:Cl. Waacstats (talk) 10:18, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

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South American Roman Catholic diocese stub

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The result of the debate was create as revised.
Template:Tl

South America has hundered of Roman Catholic diocese. Most stubs are currently being classified as Template:Tl. Instead, they should follow the pattern established in other regions.

  • Support stubsense gives 60+ stubs so category should also be created, nb that templates for south america use SouthAm- so the template name should be Template:Tl. Waacstats (talk) 13:14, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
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Template:Cl

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The result of the debate was create.

Within the Wikiproject, we currently have about 23 articles that are marked "stub-class" and some that are marked "start-class" that probably need downgraded. In addition, there are a number of articles that need to be created and I am finding more articles everyday that need to be included in Template:Cl. Ursasapien (talk) 08:38, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

What category should the template be linked to? Is Template:Cl good? Ursasapien (talk) 07:28, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Sounds fine to me - but a separate category is only used if you can get 30 stubs. If you can't, it'll need upmerging. Somewhere. Any ideas where? Grutness...wha? 23:56, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
I think I have indentified about 33. Some of these are articles about social workers, social work organizations, and maybe even a few schools of social work. Am I on the right track? Ursasapien (talk) 05:42, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Sounds reasonable, though I'm less certain about articles on actual social workers (they'd normally get some form of bio-stub). In a lot of the cases this wouuld probably be a supplementary stub type rather than a replacement (if something's already marked, say, with a US-org-stub, you'd add the new stub to the old one rather than removing the old one), so it's probably less of a problem. If you've got over 30, then given it's the main stub type of a wikiproject, you can add the category :) Grutness...wha? 00:33, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
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Template:Cl

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The result of the debate was create.
Create the following category and template:

Create the following upmerged templates:

SeveroTC 22:19, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

  • Support since we have a Yugoslavian Olympic medalist stubs I see no problem with a czechoslovakia template, nb that it should only be used on those who won medals for the country not people from the successor states. Likewise I would supoprt a Ukraine template only to be used on people who won medals while representing Ukraine not Ukrainians who won medals while representing anyone else. Waacstats (talk) 12:57, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Update
  • Template:Cl/Template:Tl (now 92 articles). SeveroTC 18:12, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
  • support cat and any other cats for these templates if the reach 60 at creation. Waacstats (talk) 00:04, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Switzerland (93) and Bulgaria (63) also now. SeveroTC 14:50, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
  • If anyone would like to create the images for these you are more than welcome :) SeveroTC 21:35, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
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Template:Cl

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The result of the debate was create.
Template:Tl has 65 articels Template:Cl has over 1200 this would make a start on reducing it. Waacstats (talk) 12:00, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

It would make an even better start if "model" had a lower case "m" :) Grutness...wha? 13:07, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Corrected. Waacstats (talk) 13:15, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
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Template:Cl

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The result of the debate was create.
Propose:

This should cut Template:Cl down a fair bit, currently about 500 articles plus numerous articles not tagged that fit in this category. SeveroTC 16:23, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

  • Support between us we'll kick the sport stubs into shape. Turkish templates are normally upmerged to both Europe and Asia. Waacstats (talk) 23:33, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
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2 more templates reach 60

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The result of the debate was create.
Speedy propose

Waacstats (talk) 15:30, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

  • Support, speedy create. SeveroTC 15:39, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
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Sports teams

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The result of the debate was create.
Propose the following

Waacstats (talk) 23:26, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

  • Support SeveroTC 16:48, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
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Kosovo stubs

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The result of the debate was create templates for all, cats for all exc footy.
With the forth coming independence, it is high time for Kosovo-related stubs. Propose the following templates until they reach the standard 60 mark, though i'd assume the biography and geo-stubs will reach them easily. Template:Tl (remove redirect), Template:Tl, Template:Tl (remove redirect to euro-geo-stub), Template:Tl.--Thomas.macmillan (talk) 08:41, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

And just a TP for Template:Tl. Matthew_hk tc 11:30, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

See my comments on the talk page - we usually allow these things once a country has a degree of international recognition. In Kosovo's case, that will probably only be a few days, so I'd support this then. UDIs can be messy businesses, though - in the unlikely chance that no-one recognises the new country, I'd hold off. Either way we should know before the end of the week. Grutness...wha? 00:37, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

In the case of Template:Tl, I suggest we wait until Kosovo is recognized by either FIFA or the IOC as fielding a team. For the rest, at least Kosovo has picked a flag that is as uncontroversial as possible under the circumstances. Caerwine Caer’s whines 01:10, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
...i.e., one that everyone hates equally :) FOTW has predicted that it's only a few months before it's replaced. Grutness...wha? 01:25, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Just came across the absence of a Template:Tl when cleaning up short pages. It's obviously needed. And regardless of independence or not unless we are to assume by existence of Template:Tl that a certain piece of real estate has flown the coop (again). Carlossuarez46 (talk) 18:15, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

There's a reason the Texas tourism slogan is, "It's like a whole other country!" In all seriousness, if the article count is sufficient I would easily back creation of a general stub for Kosovo no matter how the independence movement settles out. - Dravecky (talk) 18:45, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
OK , since for 7 days no comment has been made I guess I can start creating these --Cradel 13:31, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Cradel, this discussion is only about templates, not categories! There are nowhere near enough articles yet for separate categories, so leave these upmerged for now. Also, the comments on the footy stub were "wait", not "make a redirect"! Grutness...wha? 23:28, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
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Template:Cl over 1200!!

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The result of the debate was create by year of first appointment.
We seem to have picked up one or teo college football coaches! Any one have any ideas on a likely split. Nationality is out as I'm guessing 99% are US, we don't split by teams but even if we did no college appears to have enough for a category, dob does not seem to be considered important as 1000 articles don't have a dob category and the majority of those don't have the information in the article. So any one any ideas. Waacstats (talk) 14:35, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorting by division doesn't seem useful as almost all of them appear to be from Division I-A NCAA schools. A split by school is too fine a split to be useful. I'm hesitant to suggest by conference, since not only do coaches move around, so do the schools and the articles are likely to have only school not conference info. The only other split I can think of is by date of first college head coaching job, which while not our usual practice, will be well documented and an objective criteria to use. Caerwine Caer’s whines 20:45, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Good idea, So templates along the lines of Template:Tl and categories ??, Template:Cl seems a bit ambigous while anything else seems long winded. Waacstats (talk) 12:05, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
We have done similar splits by date of birth in the past, but if that's not given on very many articles, date of first appointment does make a certain amount of sense. Grutness...wha? 12:55, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
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Template:Cl

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The result of the debate was create.
Create upmerged:

SeveroTC 22:28, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

  • Support these will probably need categories by the end of the year! Waacstats (talk) 23:31, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
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Template:Cl

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The result of the debate was create.
Oversized propose following

Waacstats (talk) 23:26, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

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Template:Cl

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The result of the debate was create.
Propose the following

to match permcat Template:Cl. Waacstats (talk) 23:26, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

  • Support SeveroTC 16:48, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
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Template:Cl

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The result of the debate was create.
The following are all viable

Waacstats (talk) 23:26, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

  • Support SeveroTC 16:48, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
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Template:Cl

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The result of the debate was create.
Propose we finiish off the split of this category based on templates for level 9 leagues upmerged to categories for level 7, and also one additional template & category

Waacstats (talk) 23:26, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

  • Support SeveroTC 16:48, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
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Template:Tl/Template:Cl

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The result of the debate was create.
There is a Project page for this subject, and there are a great many stub articles in it.

This would be a sister category to Ancient Egypt stubs, Ancient Greece stubs, etc.

Sumerophile (talk) 21:40, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I must admit I'm in two minds about this, though the presence of a Wikiproject does sway me a little towards support. It certainly looks like a fertile area (or perhaps fertile crescent :) for stub sorting...
I can foresee a few problems, though, given that much of this ground is already covered by a variety of different stub types (subtypes of stubs from archaeology-stub to myth-stub to hist-stub, as well as the potentially fractious Jewish history stub types). Most specifically, we already have a Template:Tl, which covers much of the same ground. As you say, similar types work well enough for Ancient Egypt and Ancient Greece, though in each of those cases it's one distinct culture at the base of it all. This is more of a "catch-all" type which might if anything be better split into Ancient-Mesopotamia-stub, Ancient-Persia-stub and the like.
The other minor concern (very minor) is the template name - I suspect that Ancient-NearEast-stub would probably be more in keeping with our standard naming. Grutness...wha? 00:10, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't know the standard naming procedures, so whatever you propose is fine as far as I'm concerned. MEast history covers a lot of ground, just like Egyptian and Greek history. Ancient Mesopotamia and Ancient Persia might work too; there are some areas that would fall under both, such as Elam. Add to that Ancient Levant and Ancient Anatolia as well?

And yes, different articles fall under Archaeology, Mythology, Nobility etc. One thing I notice that's missing is a category for ancient persons. Ancient Sumerian kings are classified as Middle Eastern Royal House stubs, and I don't think that's what most people would think of them as. Sumerophile (talk) 01:36, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Template:Tl or Template:Tl

Another suggestion for notable persons (kings, queens, visiers, priests) in the ancient world. Sumerophile (talk) 22:46, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

This one is probably best dealt with concurrently with the one above it, since whatever is done with one naming wise would affect the other. An Ancient-NearEast-bio-stub (or equivalent for Ancient Mesopotamia, Ancient Persia, etc) would probably make sense at least as an upmerged template type.
I'm not keen on a blanket "Ancient-bio-stub", though, for several reasons: first, "ancient" eras vary from culture to culture (where I live anything over 250 years old would qualify!), and there is no guarantee that the stubs using it would have the same group of editors (would the same editors know about Three Kingdoms Chinese emperors and Welsh tribal chieftains, for instance?). In most cases, there is far more likelihood of editors having knowledge about historical figures from one particular country or region, so lumping them in with national bio-stubs would make more sense. Grutness...wha? 23:38, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with preferring to break them up by region. The thing is that in some areas in world (such as the Near East or Mesopotamia and Persia) ancient history is a very different topic, and has a different set of editors than recent or national histories. Sumerophile (talk) 23:51, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

After giving it some thought, I'd like to suggest that the AncientNearEast bio and hist(?) stubs not be broken down into smaller groups (such as Mesopotamia and Persia) for this reason: that there are so many groups, and there are overlaps in languages and territories that would cause confusion.

Summarizing

I'd like to summarize to get the ball rolling.

There is a need for a separate stub category for an Template:Tl and an Template:Tl, because these articles are getting lumped into modern history which for the most part has a different set of editors than ancient history in this area. This would parallel the AncientGreek and AncientEgypt categories.

Sumerophile (talk) 17:51, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

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Template:Cl

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The result of the debate was create.
Continuation of Template:Cl, the next high school class of seniors is graduating and will begin to attend college next fall. Majority of them are born in the 1990's.—Preceding unsigned comment added by DP08 (talk • contribs)

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Template:Cl

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The result of the debate was do not create.
To cover "pirate"-related subjects by "official pirates".—Preceding unsigned comment added by Trekphiler (talk • contribs)

As noted, "pirate" does not equal "privateer". A subtle distinction, perhaps, but valid. Trekphiler (talk) 07:53, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Template:Cl is populated by three stub templates: Template:Tl, Template:Tl, and Template:Tl but the entire category doesn't hold more than 50-odd articles. It seems that you already have the relevant template, but stub categories aren't normally split before reaching a much higher number of articles.
Privateer=pirate with an alleged, assumed, or affected air of respectability. Splitting would be numerically infeasible, and have significant POV issues. Alai (talk) 03:07, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Only seven articles transclude Template:Tl. I will support this when the number of articles reaches 60. SeveroTC 16:31, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
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Another Euro Olympic

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The result of the debate was create.
Create upmerged Template:Tl (over 35 articles). Template:Tl will transclude in around 125 articles I think with this and the impending Turkey template. SeveroTC 01:13, 29 February 2008 (UTC) (Edited 02:19, 29 February 2008 (UTC))

  • Support and any other countries that are worthwhile. Waacstats (talk) 16:42, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
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Template:Cl

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The result of the debate was create.
Some ones been busy as the following templates have passed 60, propose the relevent cats

Waacstats (talk) 23:43, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

  • Support speedy S2. SeveroTC 23:55, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
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Template:Cl

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The result of the debate was create.
This should mostly complete recent work on this category. Propose:

SeveroTC 22:29, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

  • support all but not to sure about the Oceania template, there appears to be only one medalist from Oceania not from NZ/Aus, but like you said it would comlete the set so I'm not opposed to it. Waacstats (talk) 16:41, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
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Winter Olympics

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The result of the debate was create.
Create:

At over 400 articles in Template:Cl, I may be coming back with some more :) SeveroTC 12:46, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

  • Support and categories if they are needed. Waacstats (talk) 16:30, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
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Template:Cl

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The result of the debate was create as United Kingdom foo stubs and United States foo stubs.
Current category is over 450 articles, so propose:

SeveroTC 16:47, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

  • The templates sound good - ISTR we use Template:Cl and Template:Cl rather than American/British, to remove any ambiguities. Grutness...wha? 23:50, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
    • We've never managed to rach any consensus on that issue, but for biographies, we really ought to follow the perm cats which are Template:Cl and Template:Cl. Caerwine Caer’s whines 20:53, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
      • Template:Cl and Template:Cl are still far less ambiguous, and are used for the majority of bio stub categories (United Kingdom vs British = 18-12; United States vs American 19-10). For those reasons, I support Template:Cl and Template:Cl more than I would the "British" (plus Northern Ireland) and "American" (excluding South and Central America, Mexico, Canada, the Caribbean, Bermuda, St Pierre and Miquelon, and Greenland, but including Hawaii) ones. Grutness...wha? 00:38, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
        • I still don't see why stub categories should not follow the naming conventions that apply to all categories. For biography categories that have a nationality component they call for using form Adjective ... not Noun ...'. The adjective forms are American and British. If you think the general naming convention is wrong, the stub sorting categories are not the place where attempting to change that for what you think is a clearer form should be undertaken. Caerwine Caer’s whines 01:03, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
          • Well, as I pointed out, both of those names are controversial or ambiguous. I know of several people born in Northern Ireland who refuse, for good reason, to call themselves British (Northern Ireland is not in Great Britain - but it is in the United Kingdom)> I can also cite books that I own (e.g., Essential American Art) which clearly indicates that Mexicans and Canadians are American, every bit as much as citizens of the United States. Both United Kingdom and pespecially United States can be used as adjectival forms (e.g., the United States Air Force, cf. the Royal Australian Air Force). I personally do think the general categories are wrong, but I don't wish to get into a debate on changing them (such debates happen repeatedly at CFD, where generally a majority favour the current names. Not an overwhelming majority, mind, but a majority). Stub categories, however, while following permcat types and largely following permcat names, do not always entirely do so. In general, however, stub categories do tend more towards using the acceptable adjectival terms "United Kingdom" and "United States", and asit is for this reason that it makes sense for this proposal and the one below to follow this largely established naming style. Grutness...wha? 01:17, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
            • I agree we should use the established naming style. Of the 162 subcategories of Template:Cl the only four that don't use British are the four national subcats of Template:Cl, etc. Of the 181 subcategories of Template:Cl, the only one not to use American is Template:Cl which is for officials of the United States government only and not the State or local governments. I repeat, why should stub categories not follow the practice of the permcats. If these weren't stub categories, I could take them all to CFD for a speedy rename. Caerwine Caer’s whines 01:31, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
              • It's okay to claim that you'd have taken them to CFD if they weren't stub categories, but nothin has stopped you taking them to SFD. As to why shouldn't stub categories follow the practice of permcats, as I've explained, there's no reason why the naming should be identical, and in this instance the stub cats actually have the more precise names. As it happens, some of these categories do crop up occasionally at SFD - late last year Template:Cl was sent to SFD and renamed to Template:Cl. You could easily have brought up your perceived problems with the name of that one then. You've also not objected to the non-bio types which have turned up repeatedly for various reasons at SFD (it's worth looking at the lack of interest at renaming United Kingdom pop musical group stubs, for instance. If you wanted any of these changed or a pattern formalised, it's a wonder you haven't done so before. BTW, those 18 to 12 and 19 to 11 figures didn't include sub-subcats, which increases the bias towards using "United Kingdom" by a very considerable amount - to 44-13; in the case of US vs American, things even out considerably or even swing slightly the other way, possibly because the issue of what is an American is less divisive than the issue of what is a Briton. Grutness...wha? 06:00, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
                • I'm not always ever present here. Indeed for the two nominations you joint pointed out I was off Wiki and indeed offline because I was then too ill to compute. So to argue that because I haven't chimed in on every discussion, my point is somehow invalid is bogus. Be assured that I'm strongly considering doing a mass renomination, but when I do, I will be doing it in a manner that assures that the discussion is made well known on the Wiki at large so that it will not be decided because a few Stub sorting regulars feel that the stub categories should not follow the naming conventions established for the perm cats. It takes time to do mass nominations right, time I don't have at present. Caerwine Caer’s whines 18:14, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
  • The one thing I'd not accuse CW of is not chiming in on this issue often enough: I think his views on the topic are fairly well-known, and certainly long-standing. Personally I feel that essentially all "British" and "American" categories are undesirable on ambiguity grounds, as amply demonstrated by the articles at those titles. (The exceptions would be anything simply preserving a source usage.) They make even less sense in the case of stub categories, as it yields either an ad hoc and ugly mixture of "United States X stubs" and "American Y stubs", or the direly sloppy prospect of "Zs <preposition> the United States" permcats with "American Z stubs" stub children (as I've pointed out similarly often). However, I increasingly despair of Wikipedia either arriving at sensible conventions in the first place, or where it does, actually implementing them, so feel free to go agigate for a mass rename with the non-stub-sorting masses. We either get deadlock straight out, or local 'consensus' to ignore the broad rule in favour of exceptionalism or personal preference. Past experience is that there's plenty of linguistic jingoists out there who'll favour slight local familiarity over any thought of precision. Pro temps, support "United Kingdom" and "United States" stub categories (in this instance and across the board). Alai (talk) 04:02, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
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Return of the living plant stubs

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The result of the debate was create.
These are all speedy creations that follow the established pattern of segregating new plant stubs. All have more than 60 stubs waiting to be shifted from the parent category as stated. --EncycloPetey (talk) 19:35, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Under Template:Cl:

Under Template:Cl:

Under Template:Cl:

Under Template:Cl:

Under Template:Cl:

    • Have at it, and just a little reminder to anyone who likes to sort plant stubs that there are several types waiting to be created on the To do page. Her Pegship (tis herself) 02:32, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
      • Except that some of those stubs aren't viable, and some that are would render the parent category non-viable if created. Also, the proposed Flacourtiaceae stub is a bad idea, since no such family exists anymore; the stub cannot be used on any articles. --EncycloPetey (talk) 03:07, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
        • Please feel free to delete from the list any that aren't viable or correct -- I was hoping someone with more botanical savvy than myself would check them out. Cheers, Her Pegship (tis herself) 03:52, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
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Template:Cl

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The result of the debate was create.
{{England-musician-stub}}, to match the Scottish musicians sub-cat-stub in the British musicians category - plus the British musicians stub is very big.

Borntolose5948 (talk) 23:46, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

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Template:Cl

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The result of the debate was no consensus.
Propose:

  • Create Template:Tl and/or {{tl|plant-genetics-stub}, for articles like Doubled haploidy. Also, Template:Tl or {{tl|plant-geneticist-stub}, ditto. Trekphiler (talk) 08:55, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Well, we already seem to have the latter, though it feeds into a slightly "lumped" category. What sort of population is there for the former? Alai (talk) 05:20, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
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Template:Cl

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The result of the debate was create.
I propose two new sub-categories:

I have made numbered lists of potential candidates here. --Paul A (talk) 08:44, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

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Template:Cl

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The result of the debate was create as revised.
Current category has over 800 articles, so I propose two sub-categories:

I acknowledge the existence of Template:Cl and Template:Cl, but submit that these are vaguely-defined, and that the numbers exist to justify clearly-named bass-guitar-specific categories. --Paul A (talk) 06:08, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I suspect this whole area needs to be looked at, given the numbers. if separate categories are to be set up, then some change to the templates is neede (certainly the X-bassist-stub types will need to be changed since the term bassist applies to both bass guitarist and double bass player. That need a more thorough proposal than simply suggesting new categories. Until that is done, please don't empty categories that are in use! Grutness...wha? 00:42, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
I think given this and the above proposal A set up similar to the following would seem reasonable

Waacstats (talk) 16:54, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

  • You acknowledge the existence of those categories largely by emptying them, it would seem. So far as I can see, they're not defined at all "vaguely", but rather, "inclusively". Unless there's some compelling reason this is unsatisfactory, I suggest reverting to said earlier state. Alai (talk) 03:04, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
  • First up, I apologise for pre-emptively emptying the bassist-stub categories; it was the wrong thing to do, but by the time I realised that it was done, and it didn't seem worth the effort to go and put them all back again. (I can and will if you want me to, though.) Second, I don't agree about "inclusively", which implies that some purpose is served or some useful information encapsulated by lumping all-things-called-"bassist" together; it seems to me, rather, that it muddies and confuses things without offering any advantage except that it saves the writer the bother of being unambiguous. I might also note that what got me started on this in the first place was noticing that, over in the non-stub categories, Template:Cl and Template:Cl are held separate, and Template:Cl exists only as a disambiguation category. --Paul A (talk) 05:35, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
    • It's only two edits to restore them, it seems, unless you've also been changing over the usages to something else. By inclusively I simply mean "(well-)defined in an inclusive manner", not (necessarily) that it's useful, or the most useful. The template follows exactly the scope of the article bassist, so I think that much is pretty much beyond question. On the utility question: I could see that both ways. In musical genre terms, one might argue that the more marked split is between the "bowers" and the "pluckers" (or non-bowers, somewhat more precisely), for example. Unless there's a clear-cut case for change, the current set-up does at least have the merit of finessing the naming issue. Alai (talk) 05:29, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
      • No, when I get stupidly enthusiastic, I don't mess around with half-measures. Obviously it wouldn't have made sense to put the double-bassist stubs in Template:Cl, so I re-stub-noticed all of them before I redirected the bassist-stub notices. (I did keep a list of them, at least: see above, in the double-bassist-stub proposal.) --Paul A (talk) 07:06, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
        • Ah, right, I see. Since reverting the template edits would therefore just give us duplicate "bass guitarist" and "bassist" types with in effect exactly the same scope, I'll take the latter to SFD, and if there's tacit or otherwise acceptance of this, then go ahead with the by-country split (which is now edging into "urgent" territory, since the merger has shoved it over 800). Alai (talk) 19:06, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Support all per nom. Her Pegship (tis herself) 21:17, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
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Template:Cl

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The result of the debate was create motorcycle-company-stub; do not create defunct type.
{{motorcycle-company-stub}}, to cover Harley Davidson & others... Also {{defunct-motorcycle-company-stub}}, to cover Rikuo & others...—Preceding unsigned comment added by Trekphiler (talk • contribs)

  • No problem with the Template:Tl (but please don't use it on Harley Davidson, I think that might not be classed as a stub). I don't think we need to differentiate the defunct companies, we normally split by country first. Waacstats (talk) 21:50, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Couldn't think of a moto maker stubbish enough offhand... For "defunct", I'm thinking of the Template:Tl (whatever its exact format) I seem to recall seeing, which doesn't seem country-specific. (If it doesn't exist, add it, too?) Trekphiler (talk) 07:56, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
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Brazil Roman Catholic diocese stub

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The result of the debate was create.
Template:Tl

Brazil has the most Roman Catholic dioceses in all of South America (212 diocese + 41 archdioceses). We may want to consider separating them out as a grouping all their own.

  • No problem with a template upmerged to the above south american category and brazil stubs but unless a large number of articles are created/tagged as stubs then hold off on category as I can only find about 6 currently existing stubs. Waacstats (talk) 13:14, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
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Scholar-stub types

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The result of the debate was create as foo-studies-bio-stub, upmerged templates only.
The following idea emerged during the recent SFD for CAsia-studies-stub.

We have numerous stub types for experts in various fields of study, such as astronomer-stub, mathematician-stub, and the like. Where an academic or other expert's field of study is one country or region, however, there often isn't a specific name that can be used (there are rare exceptions like Sinologists, but these are, as I said, rare exceptions). As such, it might be worth considering a series of stub types for experts on places, in the form Template:Tl. I've used the term "scholar", as it includes both academics and non-academic experts (such as political advisers, military experts, etc). It also makes it clear that it is different from the country-academic-stub types, which is for academics from or working in a particular country, rather than those that are experts on that country.

I haven't done a count-up, but the following seem reasonable as upmerged templates at least, and (given the original SFD) in the case of Central Asia - which has a WP Central Asian studies - a category may well be worthwhile:

Thoughts are welcome on any of the above, as are suggestions for further possible templates. Grutness...wha? 23:52, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

  • I'm not certain that *-scholar-stub is an obvious term. An alternative would be *-areastudies-bio-stub. It's verbose but more specific and makes it clear that these are not just synonyms for *-academic-bio-stub. OTOH, area studies implies a multi-disciplinary approach, while I think we could use something that would incorporate mono-disciplinarians. Caerwine Caer’s whines 01:25, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
    • The reason I used the term scholar is that it does separate it from academic, and also it's quite natural to talk of an expert in a subject being a scholar of it. The definition given at Scholar#Scholars perfectly describes the types of people for whom these stub types would be used. The only alternative name I could think of was X-expert-stub, but that sounded worse, to my mind. X-areastudies-bio-stub sounds far less natural to my ears that X-scholar-stub. Grutness...wha? 05:13, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
  • I'm supportive of the idea. I would recommend also Japan, Southeast Asia, and Middle East, if they don't already exist. Otebig (talk) 01:58, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
    • Good suggestions both (I've added them to the list) - and no, as yet none of these types exist, which is why naming of them needs a bit of discussion first. Grutness...wha? 05:13, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
  • I'd much prefer -scholar- as less verbose, as long as the scope is made clear on the category page. Her Pegship (tis herself) 20:51, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
  • I'd prefer -studies-bio-, for consistency with the existing types, parsimony with name elements, and avoidance of the "academic" overtones of "scholar". Alai (talk) 04:06, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Mmmm. I'd deliberately picked the word "scholar" because it didn't have an academic tone - you quite frequently hear of someone being a scholar of this sort of subject when they have no connection to academia (as is made clear at Scholar#Scholars. Could be yet another "separated by a common language" problem. I'd like to propose a possible compromise, though - main templates at Template:Tl, with redirects at Template:Tl. Problems then remain with the names for the category and where to upmerge any upmerged templates, although again, the permcats seem to be at Template:Cl (e.g., Template:Cl). Note too the use of "Foo" rather than "Fooian", which avoids confusion with the nationality of the scholars. To add a further confusion to things, there is talk of merging the permcats for scholars and academics into a new Template:Cl, which would at least help out with the potential category naming, but again made X-studies-bio-stub less likely as a template name. It's be good to get some sort of resolution on this one soon... any suggestions? Grutness...wha? 08:19, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
    • In my experience, it's overwhelmingly used of academic types, though not exclusively, and I do agree that's not what it "officially" means. If some talking head from some think-tank shows up on the likes of Newsnight, for example, they're usually "Foo Expert" or "Expert in Foo Studies", rather than "Foo Scholar". While there are indeed categories in a Template:Cl hierarchy, the scoping text for same says "The main article for this category is Academia." Admittedly this seems a little wonky, since there's a separate subcategory specially for Template:Cl. If we can clarify the scope of the permcat, I'm not opposed to following that naming for the stub category, but I'd still prefer -studies-bio- for the template names, for the above reasons. No objection to redirects the other way around (which would save users some typing, without inviting confusion by 'advertising' a -scholar- type). Alai (talk) 01:52, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Upon reflection, I think I'd prefer -studies- as well. Too easy to get -academic- and -scholar- mixed up, while -studies-bio- is clear. Support foo-studies-stub & foo-studies-bio-stub per Grutness. Her Pegship (tis herself) 22:15, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment - I have never supported a foo-studies-stub type - this whole debate started after I nominated the one existing foo-studies-stub for deletion! If the consensus is for a foo-studies-bio-stub type, though, I'm fine with that, despite my personal preference for the foo-scholar-stub type. What about the category names? Grutness...wha? 00:12, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
  • *-studies-bio-stub is something I can live with much better than *-scholar-stub. Caerwine Caer’s whines 22:48, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.

Template:Tl/Template:Cl

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed creation of the stub template and/or category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was create as revised.
Template:Cl has nearly 550 stubs in it. Many of these (including 4 of the first 10) belong to the family Pteropodidae, members of which are commonly known by a number of names, including fruit bat. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 06:30, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

If the other subcats are anything to go by, that would be Template:Tl and Template:Cl. Yes to the template, and yes to the category if it can be shown there are 60 stubs (soulds like there should be). Grutness...wha? 09:26, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.
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