Wiki143:Featured list removal candidates/List of The Batman episodes
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List of The Batman episodes
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured list removal nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page. No further edits should be made to this page. The closing editor's comments were: 4 Support 1 Oppose. The opposition has been explained thoroughly. No activity since the explanation was given. Four days past deadline.
Result: No longer a featured list. --Crzycheetah 20:17, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Nominate for de-listing. Violates WP:WIAFL 1(c). The lead for this article contains unsourced factual information and description of the series that does not summarize source information contained elsewhere in the article, and is therefore not properly sourced. Geraldk 18:14, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
- De-list Comparing with the Desperate Housewifes FL, The Batman is missing the episode summaries; therefore, it is possibly failing 1(b), too. (not as comprehensive as other FLs) --Crzycheetah 18:24, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
- Delist per 1c. LuciferMorgan 23:55, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
- Delist per lack of much needed episode summaries. Circeus 02:26, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
- Oppose delisting I agree, 1c must be satisfied, but it seems all the sources are there in the bottom, this page just chooses to not use the citation template format. Click the sources at the bottom Lucifer, they give all the information that is the lead. This seems to be a personal formatting issue. But Cryzycheetah's, and CIrceus's idea that an FL has to have episode summaries is incorrect. This is an encyclopedia, and plots are only used to provide context to the OOU information. We may allow them in a brief format for these pages, but in all intents-and-purposes, there is nothing here for them to add context to. Since this particular series has episode pages, the plots are already there. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 11:18, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- Smallville list had links to the seasons at least, where one could find summaries, I don't see such here. The level of FLs is getting higher and this list is staying behind.--Crzycheetah 20:52, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- Smallville and Simpsons have their summary in season pages. As does Bleach (which is why we have a single arc as a FL right now.) Circeus 21:19, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- This list has the summaries on the individual pages. Just click the episode and you'll get a summary. Wiki isn't a list of plot summaries. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 22:51, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- In the link you provided, I saw that "A brief plot summary may be appropriate as an aspect of a larger topic.". So, where are the brief plot summaries here?--Crzycheetah 23:27, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- Yeah, one where the plot summary provides context for the larger topic. A list is not a "larger topic". Larger topic doesn't mean "how long you can make your list". It's talking about production information, reception information. Something that covers more than the basic "he wrote it, he directed it" stuff. Pilot (Smallville) is a larger topic than the LOE page for those series. The LOE page does even compare actual article size wise to this one article. If you removed all the coding from the LOE page, that article would probably be something like 5-10kb long, whereas the pilot article is much larger because it contains a broader amount of information. It isn't limited to just writers and directors. There's nothing on an LOE page that needs contextual information for a plot summary to be able to understand it better. Knowing the events of a plot might help you understand better what they did in production, or why it was nominated for an award (depending on the category of the award), but a plot summary doesn't help you understand a name. You could have the largest plot in the world, but that isn't going to get you understand anything about it in the real world. There's confusion over the terminology because "larger topic" is used in other places for a different meaning. Like in notability, you would merge a small article into a larger article. The topic could be larger, or the topic could be more specific. It's all about context. Plots have no relevance without context, because Wikipedia is not a substitution for watching a television show. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 23:34, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- By that logic, all plot summaries from the film articles have to be removed because there is no context there either and they are used as a substitute for watching those films.--Crzycheetah 23:54, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- If the film article doesn't have any real world content, then you're right. It isn't that we must remove a synopsis from a FL, or an episode article, or a film article, it's that they are tolerated in instances where they really are not necessary. You are trying to delist a LOE page because it doesn't provide you with something that isn't necessary since there is nothing on the page that needs contextual information. Plot summaries are allowed, not mandated, in the case of LOE pages, so long as they are very brief. If an LOE chooses not to have them, and does not have any episode pages, then there is still no problem. I'm not sure where it says on Wikipedia that we have to have plots for television shows. The plot situation is not an issue. It has nothing to do with comprehensiveness, because this is a list of episodes, and not a list of plot summaries, or an article about an overview for a season. If someone wants to create those things, they are more than welcome so long as they comply with the style and notability guidelines and all the relevant policies. But, if someone does not, any article that doesn't link to such a thing is not hindered by that either. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 00:08, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
- I understand and I mostly agree with you. What makes me uncomfortable here is that some LOEs take one additional step than what is required to get their stars while some just meet the minimum requirement and still get their stars. Which list is better, the one with the brief summaries or the one without? The recently passed FLs set the bar higher and higher and others have to follow it.--Crzycheetah 00:51, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
- If the film article doesn't have any real world content, then you're right. It isn't that we must remove a synopsis from a FL, or an episode article, or a film article, it's that they are tolerated in instances where they really are not necessary. You are trying to delist a LOE page because it doesn't provide you with something that isn't necessary since there is nothing on the page that needs contextual information. Plot summaries are allowed, not mandated, in the case of LOE pages, so long as they are very brief. If an LOE chooses not to have them, and does not have any episode pages, then there is still no problem. I'm not sure where it says on Wikipedia that we have to have plots for television shows. The plot situation is not an issue. It has nothing to do with comprehensiveness, because this is a list of episodes, and not a list of plot summaries, or an article about an overview for a season. If someone wants to create those things, they are more than welcome so long as they comply with the style and notability guidelines and all the relevant policies. But, if someone does not, any article that doesn't link to such a thing is not hindered by that either. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 00:08, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
- By that logic, all plot summaries from the film articles have to be removed because there is no context there either and they are used as a substitute for watching those films.--Crzycheetah 23:54, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- Yeah, one where the plot summary provides context for the larger topic. A list is not a "larger topic". Larger topic doesn't mean "how long you can make your list". It's talking about production information, reception information. Something that covers more than the basic "he wrote it, he directed it" stuff. Pilot (Smallville) is a larger topic than the LOE page for those series. The LOE page does even compare actual article size wise to this one article. If you removed all the coding from the LOE page, that article would probably be something like 5-10kb long, whereas the pilot article is much larger because it contains a broader amount of information. It isn't limited to just writers and directors. There's nothing on an LOE page that needs contextual information for a plot summary to be able to understand it better. Knowing the events of a plot might help you understand better what they did in production, or why it was nominated for an award (depending on the category of the award), but a plot summary doesn't help you understand a name. You could have the largest plot in the world, but that isn't going to get you understand anything about it in the real world. There's confusion over the terminology because "larger topic" is used in other places for a different meaning. Like in notability, you would merge a small article into a larger article. The topic could be larger, or the topic could be more specific. It's all about context. Plots have no relevance without context, because Wikipedia is not a substitution for watching a television show. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 23:34, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- In the link you provided, I saw that "A brief plot summary may be appropriate as an aspect of a larger topic.". So, where are the brief plot summaries here?--Crzycheetah 23:27, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, but their step doesn't mean anything extra. No two articles are alike. The FL criteria are not "LOE's must have plots", but they certainly are not "FL's better not have plots". If they do, great, if they don't, great. Having a synopsis does not make it better, or set a bar higher. It depends on your perspective. Mine, if you see my contributions and discussions for fictional articles, is one that is firmly against excessive use of in-universe information. If it does not need to be there, then it should go. LOEs used to have images, and so did their FL counterparts. That has since been removed. Having synopses in LOEs is a compromise, because many editors feel that we have to have a plot for everthing and it has to be detailed. Well, if you don't have anything that needs context, then the plot becomes irrelevant. But it's allowed for FLs as a compromise. It's an aesthetic, it's eye candy, like the images that were onces there before. It holds no encyclopedic value. Regardless, as far as this FL is concerned, the plots are definitely not a problem since it has an article for every episode already linked. The only real concern is the one Lucifer brought up, and it isn't even a real sourcing issue. The article is sourced, it's just not footnoted. Lucifer wants footnotes, while the contributing editors decided to just provide all the sources as an external link at the bottom of the page. Anyway and easily change the format and put them in citation templates. So, it's a formatting issue, not a verifiability problem. So, no reason why it should be delisted, but maybe someone should bring this up on the talk page of the list and inform those editors that it will be best for the article to have all sources footnoted. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 01:33, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
- Then why do lists have directors, writers, or airdates? People can just click on episodes and read. It's not an excessive use of in-universe information to have brief summaries. Brief summaries enhance lists. You just need to have something extra to better the quality of lists. The Batman list is the only FL that doesn't have brief summaries in any way. Smallville and Simpsons have their summaries in the season articles, but Batman doesn't have any season article whatsoever.
In the WP:WIAFL under number two, it says that a FL "complies with the standards set out in the manual of style and relevant WikiProjects." The most relevant WikiProject for this list is WP:LOE, correct me if I'm wrong. I just wanted to see whether WP:LOE had list guidelines and guess what, it says "simply follow the example of other Featured lists". I clicked on the very first one and it was List of Avatar: The Last Airbender episodes with brief summaries. It's safe to assume that having brief summaries is a standard set out by WP:LOE. Since Batman doesn't have any brief summaries, I admit I was wrong, it doesn't fail 1(b), it just fails #2.--Crzycheetah 08:23, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
- Then why do lists have directors, writers, or airdates? People can just click on episodes and read. It's not an excessive use of in-universe information to have brief summaries. Brief summaries enhance lists. You just need to have something extra to better the quality of lists. The Batman list is the only FL that doesn't have brief summaries in any way. Smallville and Simpsons have their summaries in the season articles, but Batman doesn't have any season article whatsoever.