Wiki143:Featured list candidates/List of Oxford United F.C. managers

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted 16:14, 8 May 2008.

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List of Oxford United F.C. managers

I have improved the article since the peer review and am now nominating it for FL. Any comments will be much apreciated. Cheers. Eddie6705 (talk) 00:12, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Resolved comments from Gonzo fan2007

• Comments by Gonzo fan2007
  • The first paragraph should either be expanded or merged into the second paragraph as the first paragraph is too short to stand alone as a paragraph.
    • Done
  • Please explain what a caretaker manager is, as most Americans or people who dont know a heck of a lot about football won't know what it is.
    • Done
  • "The first manager Headington United (the original name of Oxford United) appointed after turning professional was Harry Thompson in July 1949." This sentence is missing a word, maybe "The first manager of Headington United..."
    • Done
  • "He was sacked..." is a little too colloquial for me, maybe "fired," "relieved of his duties," etc. would be better.
    • Done
  • Link the first instance of "silverware" to Silverware (sport).
    • Done
  • Link "English football" to Football in England.
    • Done
  • Link the first instance of "Promoted" and "Relegated" to Promotion and relegation.
    • Done
  • "As of March 29, 2008" As of what? Statistics correct "as of March 29, 2008?" I think it would be better to clarify.
    • Done
  • Why is the "From" column sortable, and the "To" column not?
    • Not Done The "To" column is not sortable because it links directly to the "From" column. If you sort the from column from earliest ot recent for example, then the to column will be sorted in the same way.
  • Can you capitalize "present" in the last row (I know, picky :)
    • Done
  • Could you use Template:Tl instead of Template:Tl, it looks cleaner.
    • Done
  • I think it would look nice and be beneficial to the list to have a Total row appended to the bottom, such as: Done

{| class="wikitable sortable" style="text-align: left" |- !Name!!From!!class="unsortable"|To!!class="unsortable"|Achievements!!Games!!Won!!Lost!!Drawn!!Win %!!class="unsortable"|Notes |- !align=center|Total (32 Managers) !align=center|[[July 1]][[1949]] !align=center|Present !align=center| !align=center|2652 !align=center|967 !align=center|988 !align=center|697 !align=center|36.46% | |- |}

• • I have concerns that Rage Online isn't a reliable source. It seems to have been created and is maintained by independent supporters and isn't an official site (If I'm mistaken please correct me).
    • I don't think it is an official site. I am trying to replace this source with the 'Complete Record of Oxford Untied 1893-1989' book. However, as the title suggests, this only goes up to 1989. All but one have been removed. This is because Horton's reign is not fully covered in the book as it goes up to 1989.
      • Done all now removed. Eddie6705 (talk) 23:45, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
• So for now I am going to have to say weak oppose. Most of my issues are minor and can be easily fixed but 17 of your references are to "Rage Online," and like I said, this site concerns me about WP:RS issues. Cheers, « Gonzo fan2007 (talk ♦ contribs) @ 07:40, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Support, All my comments have been addressed, good work! « Gonzo fan2007 (talk ♦ contribs) @ 00:13, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

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Resolved stuff from The Rambling Man (talk) 06:29, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Comments from

• A few "5"s in the lead should really be five.
  • Done
• I'd centrally align the notes column.
  • Done
• Don't overwikilink in individual cells of the table (e.g. Southern League is linked twice for both Thompson and Turner...)
  • Done
• "six year " - should be hyphenated - six-year.
  • Done
• You've linked the second silverware, not the first one!
  • Done
• "Apart from Denis Smith gaining promotion from the Second Division in 1996. No other manager has guided United to further promotions or silverware. This period included manager Ramón Díaz, who was the club's first non-British manager. " some work needed here. First sentence is incomplete, third sentence is out of context - which period?
  • Done
• "Despite Jim Smith returning as manager..." - elements of POV here.
  • Done
• You have to make the Total row unsortable, it should always be at the bottom.
  • Done
• Total 32 Managers - managers.
  • Done
• I also have concerns of the reliability of Rage Online.
  • I am in the process of replacing the sources from Rage Online and hopefully this will be done by the end of the day. All but one has been removed, see above.
    • Done
• Bullet the references.
  • Done

That's it from me. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:36, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

• Support - all my major issues addressed. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:29, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

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Resolved comments from Peanut4

• Oppose for the time being, mostly because of the unknown manager in 1958 - without it the list is incomplete. But some other points that need to be addressed:
  • The first line ought to say Oxford United F.C.
    • Done
  • "twenty three" should be 23 or twenty-three.
    • Done
  • I would explain the significance of 1949 in the first line.
    • Done
  • "The first manager of Headington United (the original name of Oxford United) appointed after turning professional was Harry Thompson in July 1949." This sentence doesn't make much sense to me.
    • Done
  • "thirteen" probably ought to be 13.
    • Done
  • Why is "third division" not capped?
    • Done
  • "the club's only silverware" is not strictly true, since the club has won various non-league cups and other titles.
    • Done
  • "forty four" Again 44 preferably or at least "forty-four".
    • Done
  • "After an unsuccessful first season," I think this needs referencing and further explaining. First season in what? What was unsuccessful? Who says it was unsuccessful?
    • Done
  • The references need sorting out. Some have quote marks, others don't. And those that do are in different places. The page breaks also should be endashes not hyphens. The book should also have an ISBN number.
    • Done
• That's it for now. Peanut4 (talk) 22:28, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
  • The lead sentence now doesn't make sense "The following is a list of Oxford United F.C. managers from turning professional in 1949, to the present day." I'd suggest something along the lines "... in 1949, when the club turned professional, to the present day."
    • Done
  • This sentence: "The first manager appointed after turning professional" also suffers from a similar problem. Overall the prose needs tightening up.
    • Done
  • You've changed thirteen to 13 but left the other two numbers above 10 to all words rather than numerals. Check out WP:MOSNUM.
    • Done
  • "major silverware" is a bit POV. I agree with you but others might not. Have you a reference to say as much?
    • Done
  • The lead flips between Third Division and Division One. Should either be Division Three or First Division. Make sure they're all the same.
    • Done

Peanut4 (talk) 23:46, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

• Comments
  • "Turner, the longest-serving manager in the club's history with more than a decade in charge, led United to back-to-back Southern League titles, of which the second, in 1962, led to their election to the Football League." I would change the second "led" to another verb.
    • Done
  • "Turner left the club nine months after the victory. Over the next 13 years, five managers took charge, including Mick Brown, Bill Asprey and Ian Greaves." Any reason for mentioning just these three of the five? It's seem entirely random to be these three. What would stop someone else coming along and changing it to another combination of the five?
    • Have included all 5
  • "However, he moved to Queens Park Rangers during pre-season so never managed Oxford in the First Division." It says 1985 before this, but I think it might read easier if this said "However, he moved to Queens Park Rangers before the 1984–85 season kicked off so never ..."
    • Done
  • Any reason the stats are only complete to March 29? We're now the end of the season, so there's no reason, they can't be updated again.
    • Updated
  • "committee of board members". Is there a reason for this? Secondly I would capitalise the c to "Committee of board members"
    • Myself and Struway2 have looked in the complete record book, contacted the club, and spoke to the author of the book. The only information they could give us was that there was a commitee of board members managing in the said period. They could not find out why this was the case (see below). Capitalised the 'c'.
  • Ref 22 needs an endash.
    • Done
• Otherwise, this has been a great improvement. Well done. Peanut4 (talk) 21:28, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Resolved stuff from Struway2

• Says in the lead that Thompson was fired on New Years Eve 1958, but in the table he left in the November.
  • Corrected
• As to sacked/fired, as mentioned by Gonzo fan2007 above, remember this is a British-English article. In Brit-Eng "sacked" is the standard informal word for being dismissed; "fired" is at least as colloquial in Brit-Eng but less often used (though The Apprentice catchphrase is giving it currency). I'd have said that "sacked" wasn't too informal to use in an encyclopedia article as an occasional variant, but as there's only one occurrence in the lead section, perhaps "dismissed" would be preferable.
  • Hehe, sorry, I forgot about the whole Brit-Eng, I would agree dismissed would be best. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk ♦ contribs) @ 16:52, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Changed to dismissed
• Date on totals row should be in the same format as that of all the other dates.
  • Done
• What is your source for Lewis being joint caretaker with Evans? If he was, then he needs an article, even a little stubby stub article, to comply with current FL criterion 1.a.1 "brings together a group of existing articles related by well-defined entry criteria".
  • Done
    • If you've removed Evans as joint caretaker, you need to subtract 1 from the number of caretakers and the totals row as well. But please see further comment below.
• While I understand reviewers' concerns about the accuracy of Rage Online as an unofficial source which doesn't state where its figures come from, removing it to replace with Soccerbase is a frying-pan into fire job if you're unaware of Soccerbase's limitations. For instance, Soccerbase didn't start including the Football League Trophy and predecessors until the late 1990s, so your early-2000s managers' stats will be counting this but Brian Horton's won't. In addition, Soccerbase has never included things like the Anglo-Italian or the Simod/ZDS/whatever cup, though I believe Oxford did compete in these.
  • Done following discussions at nominator's talk page.
• Some of your references could do with a bit more detail. For instance, the Abingdon Herald manager profiles have an author who should be credited.
  • Done
    • I've done several more.
• Per your Oxford Mail ref, Malcolm Crosby had 5 games from 24 Dec, which takes him until after 17 Jan but before 24 Jan; per Soccerbase (and RageOnline), Shotton's first game was 24 Jan, yet you have 25 Jan. Soccerbase has Shotton finishing on 25 Oct 1999, RageOnline has his last game as 23 Oct (which is consistent with SB), you have 3 Oct 1999 (perhaps that's a typo for 23 Oct?). Perhaps you should check through your dates to see if there are any more inconsistencies?
  • Done
    • No, it isn't. The table still has Crosby finishing and Shotton starting on 25 Jan, contrary to your cited source. It also has Shotton finishing on 23 Oct where your cited source has 25 Oct.
      • Changed
• Your footnote 26 (soccerbase 1997-98 results) doesn't go anywhere. Should be http://www.soccerbase.com/results2.sd?teamid=1964&seasonid=127
  • Done
    • Except you've added the same link for Soccerbase 1999-2000 results.
      • Corrected
• I'm not really comfortable with the wording of "During this time there have been 23 full time managers and nine caretaker managers. Five managers have had two or more stints at the club." Technically, there have been 20 different full-time managers, of which three have had more than one spell in the full-time job, and six different named caretaker managers, one of which (Ford) had two spells as caretaker but was never full-time manager, one (Patterson) has twice been full-time manager, and one (Evans) has once been full-time manager. That's ignoring the gap between Thompson and Turner. If it were me, I'd say something like "During this time the club has had 20 full-time managers, of whom three – possibly name them? – have had more than one spell in the post, and eight periods of caretaker-management." and ignore the odds and ends. Similarly, I think having the number of managers at the bottom of the column is misleading. What do you think? cheers, Struway2 (talk) 14:55, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

• Well done for finding out there was a committee between Thompson and Turner. Could you add a source for that (the only note on that line is the one that's always been there, presumably referencing the dates, seeing as you told me the only paragraph between Thompson and Turner in the book didn't mention who took over). cheers, Struway2 (talk) 07:24, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
  • The source already there is to show the dates. I don't know if i will be able to get a source mentioning the committee. I contacted the administrator of Rage Online, who was able to tell me from memory it was a committee decision. Eddie6705 (talk) 18:15, 6 May 2008 (UTC) reply copied from my talk page by Struway2 (talk)
    • I contacted the club who in turn contacted Andy Howland (author of Complete Record book), between them they said that if it wasn't in the book the only thing they could suggest was the club handbook for the season in question, which they didn't have prior to 1960-61. So I think between Eddie6705 and myself we've done as much as humanly possible to source the gap. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 09:16, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Support The list follows an established standard for football club manager lists. It satisfies WP:WIAFL criterion 1.a.1 (existing articles), the lead introduces the list adequately and is referenced, the list itself is well referenced, uses reliable sources and complies with the MoS, and it is illustrated using an appropriate free-use image. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 09:16, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.