Wiki143:Featured list candidates/List of Key games/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Scorpion0422 22:12, 2 June 2009 [1].

---

List of Key games

Nominator(s): 十八 03:55, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

{{Wikipedia:Featured list tools|1=List of Key games}}

Even though I just created the list, I believe it already satisfies the criterion described at WP:FL?. At this date, the list is comprehensive, though as stated at the end of the lead, Key's latest game has yet to be released or even given much details on (such as release date, and its rating). I didn't think any images were appropriate for inclusion. I attempted to follow a similar structure laid out on List of Nintendo 64 games and List of Virtual Boy games (initially basing the idea for the list on List of Square Enix games and its structure).--十八 03:55, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Not happy yet

• "all-ages": why the hyphen? There are two instances.
• "and is described as a "kinetic novel" by the development team due to having a completely linear storyline."—not a pretty sentence. "... team, because of its completely ..."?
• Most readers would expect commas to be used in the running text. (There's one lonely comma.) Tony (talk) 15:25, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

I updated the lead, changing all-ages to 'everyone', rewrote a couple sentences, and added commas where appropriate.--十八 19:32, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Comments and questions...

• Can't find any images that help illustrate the topic? I know there would be fair use issues with a lot of potential images but the page seems pretty bare as is...
• In the lead or after the sub-heading that starts the list, you should explain what eroge and availability mean. The former is less obvious (and more tehchnical) than the latter, but both aren't fully clear to the lay reader. I know you semi-explain them in the notes, but that requires an extra and unnecessary step by the reader.
• Why don't all the entries in the table have kanji translations?
• Certainly not required, but it would be interesting to see sales data for these. Is there any place such information would be available? Geraldk (talk) 22:41, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
  • It's not that I can't find suitable images, it's that none exist. I imagine a group image of at least the 7 current different game cases would suffice, but beyond that, I can't think of anything.
  • I'll transfer what is explained in the notes to the lead, in a second paragraph. This'll also give me the chance to explain the box set to be released in more detail, as I was worried it was kind of vague.
  • The titles that don't have kanji equivalents were not manufactured with such equivalents. For example, as given at Kanon's official website, two versions were titled Kanon Standard Edition in plain English.
  • Sales data for visual novels is generally hard to come by, but some have been able to be found for these games, which is viewable on their articles. Certainly, I could add in all the data already available, but by no means is it possible that all the versions would have such data, so having some with and some without probably wouldn't make sense for an FL.--十八 23:13, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Support as is, satisfied with responses though I still think the list could be better if there were an image available. Geraldk (talk) 23:34, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

• Support, it is detailed and comprehensive. The only thing that it needs right now is an image, which I guess the Memorial Box's cover art would do, when it is released, that is. -- クラウド６６８ 23:51, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Comments from Twas Now

Support, looks good. Remember to move the article to List of video games developed by Key. Initiate a discussion through Wikipedia:Requested moves if you think another title might be more suitable. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 22:49, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

• I have reservations about the article's name. First, it should probably say "video games", not just "games". Second, as someone who's never heard of the company, I find the article name rather ambiguous. "Key" can mean a number of things. Is this a list of important ("key") games? Is "Key" a type of game, or genre, like List of puzzle video games? I propose List of video games developed by Key. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 16:04, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
  • I'm fine with renaming the article, but I was just going by the previous examples set out in Category:Video game lists by company, where the majority of the articles are "List of COMPANY games". Not to mention that since "Key" is capitalized in the article title, shouldn't that be enough to say that it's a proper name? And this would thus exclude the examples you gave where 'key' would have to be lowercased. Of course, we could make this article an example article if it passes FL, since there are no other current FLs of video game lists by company.--十八 23:41, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

The capitalized "Key" is what clued me in that this was not meant as a "list of important video games". However, people less familiar with Wikipedia and its conventions might not know that. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 02:27, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

That's not a good argument since it's not something unique to Wikipedia. The English language capitalizes proper names, therefore anyone who knows English will know it's a proper name.--十八 02:31, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

I've seen enough articles with improper capitalization to know that is not the case. (Not to mention all the wild capitalization that exists across the rest of the internet). My point is that I didn't know what this article was about when I saw the name. Homocysteine methyltransferase offers more clues about its subject matter. I initially thought "Key" was the name of a video game series. That's a close guess, but only because I first noticed it listed at WikiProject Video games, so there was some context to suggest it was about video games. What about people who see the article name without such context? — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 03:21, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Alright, I understand your argument now. I'll agree with the proposed rename, but can it be held off until this FLC closes (so as to remove the need of moving other pages for the time being)?--十八 05:31, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, I think the "video games" part is crucial, but I won't press the issue. If others think it should moved first, then let's move it. (Although it would only take roughly one minute with AutoWikiBrowser to fix all the links, which I could do tomorrow). — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 05:49, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

• The fair use rationale for the image used in the article needs to be improved. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 22:29, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Improve how? Is it not following the guidelines already?--十八 23:41, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

The rationale could be strengthened. Read Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria and make sure all points are covered, particularly "Respect for commercial opportunities". — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 00:17, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

• The date format in the references (currently 2009-05-16) should match the date format in the article (e.g. May 16, 2009).
  • Actually, the date formats of the references are independent of those of the article, but I made everything consistent anyway. Dabomb87 (talk) 18:46, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
• "As of September 2008" — Could this be updated? Not a showstopper, but it would be good to have it up-to-date, if possible. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 18:26, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
  • That is the last month/year Key released a version of their games (meaning they haven't released anything since then). Instead of having to update it every month, having the last time a game was released makes more sense to me.--十八 20:35, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Sounds good. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 21:02, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

• What's the reason for having these tables sortable? The tables are each short enough that this information can be easily discerned at a glance. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 22:38, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
  • As stated above, I used three example articles, all of which used sorted tables (meaning, I stole the base code for use in this article). I suppose you're right though, and I could easily remove the sorting.--十八 22:44, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, those are all long tables (with more columns, too). — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 23:13, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Support, all issues resolved. Dabomb87 (talk) 22:16, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Resolved issues, Dabomb87 (talk)

Comments from "with a rating for everyone." This needs to be clarified; sounds like everyone "gets" a rating rather than that the game was approved for all ages. "and is described as a "kinetic novel" by the development team, because of its completely linear storyline." No comma. "Key's fifth game Tomoyo After: It's a Wonderful Life was released in 2005 as an adult game, and sequel of sorts to Clannad, which expanded on the scenario of the heroine Tomoyo Sakagami from Clannad." -->Key's fifth game Tomoyo After: It's a Wonderful Life was released in 2005 as an adult game and sequel of sorts to Clannad; it expanded on the scenario of the heroine Tomoyo Sakagami from Clannad. "nineteen versions of Key's"-->19 versions of Key's "Overtime" Remove this word. Dabomb87 (talk) 14:36, 23 May 2009 (UTC) All done.--十八 20:35, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Sources look good. Dabomb87 (talk) 14:36, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Comments from

• Is there any real reason we can't have the section titles bluelinked instead of using "Main article:"?
  • WP:ACCESS. Dabomb87 (talk) 20:11, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
• I'm uncomfortable with the wording on the "Availability" column. I'd prefer something more along the lines of "In print/Out of print".
  • Changed, and also changed the Eroge columns to Rating, thus removing all the Yes/No templates.--十八 20:35, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
• Perhaps have another column for the extras that come with the various versions? And maybe get rid of the Japanese titles (having translations for things such as "limited edition" isn't really all that helpful IMO).
  • I think the Japanese titles should stay for the reason that these were the original titles, and then translations like "limited" and "regular" aren't exactly word-for-word translated; they are just general concepts of what these games were manufactured as. For example, all of the limited editions carry the kanji 初回 which would translate as "first time", but this isn't included since it's not standard, and is unnecessary in understanding what these versions are. Not to mention that from Tomoyo After, all the games carry were printed originally with Japanese names, unlike from Kanon to Planetarian. As for the extras, only the limited editions ever came with extra stuff, and adding them in would mess up how the table looks, especially when the majority of the versions released didn't come with extras.--十八 20:35, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
• List seems to imply that the games were only released on PC, with no mention of DC, PS2, and PSP ports.--Remurmur (talk) 20:05, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
  • This list was created to list all the titles actually released by Key, not affiliates that released the ports: Interchannel and Prototype. Would an addition akin to this example suffice?--十八 20:35, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

• Support -- Amazingly I found no issues, thus it meets WP:WIAFL. Great job.--Truco 16:05, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 06:51, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

*Oppose with comments I'd prefer a more useful intro sentence telling me exactly what these games are about before you tell me who develops & publishes them and what platforms they are "originally" released for. "sequel of sorts to Clannad" what do you mean by "of sorts"? Is it your opinion? "As of September 2008" - it's now nearly June 2009 - can we have an update please? Are "Out of print" and "In print" conventional terms for software availability? Not sure why "Little Busters! Ecstasy" is a sub-section of Little Busters! when you discuss it in the lead as a 7th release. Not one single English reference. I think that's a problem. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:10, 30 May 2009 (UTC) I'm not sure what you mean by "what these games are about". Do you mean describe the gameplay or something? If this list is supposed to be a "list of video games developed by Key", then shouldn't the first sentence be telling you these are video games developed by Key? Perhaps it's just an odd topic or odd choice of title, but I think we need to engage our readers and just telling them who develops, publishes, ports games doesn't really do that. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:40, 30 May 2009 (UTC) I rewrote the first sentence, introducing what Key is first, and then getting into the development/publisher info.--十八 21:15, 30 May 2009 (UTC) Tomoyo After isn't a direct sequel, but more of a spin-off work; I'll clarify that. September 2008 was the last month/year in which Visual Art's published one of Key's titles, in this case, it was the Little Busters! Ecstasy Regular Edition. Instead of having to update it every month, the last instance of a release date is given. And besides, it'll be updated to "As of July 2009" once the box set Key 10th Memorial Box gets released. Well, the point is that it currently reads as if it's out of date - who knows what could have happened in the intervening 9 months? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:40, 30 May 2009 (UTC) Updated.--十八 21:15, 30 May 2009 (UTC) I'm unsure about the conventionality of the terms, but "out of print" and "in print" are the simplest ways of describing the availability. I accept this is convention for the printed word, but for software, I'd like clarification that these terms are accurate. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:40, 30 May 2009 (UTC) How about changing the column heading to "Status" and changing the terms to "Discontinued" and "Available"?--十八 21:15, 30 May 2009 (UTC) Little Busters! Ecstasy was an updated, adult version of Little Busters!, and since it's even given a separate page on Key's website, it's clear they regard it as a separate work, plus Ecstasy has no article of it's own as it's covered in Little Busters!, so having it as a subsection will make it clear where the main article info is; if it was in it's own section, it might look strange for all the other games to have main article links, but not Ecstasy. I don't agree. Not all sections need main links. You've asserted it's clearly a separate work, so it ought to be a separate section. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:40, 30 May 2009 (UTC) Updated.--十八 21:15, 30 May 2009 (UTC) For release info, GameFAQs is considered a reliable source. Therefore, I could add in some refs, like this or this. Sounds good to me. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:40, 30 May 2009 (UTC) Updated.--十八 21:15, 30 May 2009 (UTC) --十八 20:28, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.