Wiki143:Featured article review/Half-Life 2/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was kept by User:Marskell 11:06, 9 October 2008 [1].

Half-Life 2

Notified: Nufy8, WP Video games, Tom Edwards (top 2 of 3 contributors no longer active)

Fails current FA criteria in several ways. First and foremost, 1c; there are many unsourced, potentially contentious statements not sourced, and worse there are entire paragraphs not sourced. Another issue is the excessive use of nonfree images (crit 3), as well as unnecessary detail (such as weapons info, and a ridiculously long synopsis section.) --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 02:12, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

I corrected your notifications. When notifying, please use the subst FAR message (in this case, {{subst:FARMessage|Half-Life 2}}) so that editors who come straight to this page without seeing the FAR instructions will understand the process. Also, I corrected your links at the top of this FAR; giving a complete link to the notification page makes it easier for others to check that notifications are done correctly. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:01, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
I completely disagree that this is an undue amount of synopsis for a full-length video game. Many film featured articles have comparable length summaries, and are for two hours, not the 40 hours a full-length game usually takes up. Phil Sandifer (talk) 02:35, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
  • Somewhat of a side issue, but Content cut from Half-Life 2 doesn't strike me as a valid article topic. We might consider merging that into this article. I also question the structuring. It seems to me that some of the "Technical" section should be combined with "Source code leak" into "Development". Possibly "Cuts" as well. Pagrashtak 04:20, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
    I will agree with merging it back in, as the information could be considered plagiarism for the fact it only has one source. A severe trimming should be had on merging, also. It should make the article stronger overall, as I'm sure the citations in the book could be valuable for sourcing other sections, such as Development.
    Also agree with merging Cuts into Development; perhaps Source code leak should be merged into the article on the Source engine, or at the least up into the section on it, as I'm willing to bet that that is largely duplicated in the target of such a merge. The contract dispute can probably be merged into the section on Distribution. Also agree with trimming #Synopsis; the setting should be inherent from the plot description alone, and so I think that section could probably be axed completely.
    I also agree that order is poor: Reception should be moved to being near the bottom, at the least.
    All those issues, aside from the citations and other issues. However, with the remerge of the "cut" information, I think that will alone substantially improve the text. --Izno (talk) 04:38, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
  • Sourced summary is not plagiarism. Phil Sandifer (talk) 04:46, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
  • For one it is not sourced (a single reference is not "sourced"), and two, depends on who you talk to. Looking at the article with my eyes, I'd say you'd be able to get away with not reading the book, which is the purpose of copyright - to protect the user's work. And hence, it is plagiarism to me. Rules may vary depending on who you ask, of course. --Izno (talk) 05:08, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
  • Plagiarism and copyright are different issues. But given that the book is, well, a book, and we are a short summary, I would guess there's plenty in the book beyond our summary. Certainly it is valid under any standard of copyright we have used regularly, been told to use by Mike, or that has been tested in court. As for plagiarism, plagiarism is a completely different concept with a firm definition, and this has nothing whatsoever to do with it. And a single reference is indeed sourced. More sources would be lovely, but that article is not unsourced. Phil Sandifer (talk) 06:14, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Ok, here's my concerns with the article:
  • The gameplay section needs some substantial copyeditting, and some of those subheadings could be merged into the main bulk of prose. It also needs more references.
  • The synopsis section is too long, and needs to be brought down a bit. A restructure could be in order, with three headings: "setting" (approx 1 paragraph, summarising backstory and location), "characters" (approx 1 paragraph, introducing key characters and their roles) and "plot" (approx 3-4 paragraphs, concisely summarising the plot).
  • Cuts, technical, soundtrack, source code leak, and contract dispute could all be put under the title of development, and they need copyeditting and perhaps a bit of reorganisation. Some more references are also needed. Content cut from Half-Life 2 is simply unnecessary, it is not an appropriate, verifiable and notable topic, and should be summarised very concisely in this article rather than spun out, reliant on a single primary source and reading like a fansite.
  • The reception section needs to be expanded significantly. The critical response section is painfully underdeveloped for a game of this importance, and there's absolutely nothing on the game's impact on the gaming industry and its influence on the genre (beyond a brief mention in the intro), which significantly affects this article's comprehensiveness. The merchandise section could also use padding out.
  • The expansions and modifications section could use copyediting and more references as to keep down the possible self-promotion of mods in the mod section's prose. The "subsequent releases" stuff should go under this heading, which should be modified to reflect this.
  • A total of ten non-free images (including box art) is really pushing the idea of minimal usage. For obvious reasons, the box art can stay, although I'd like to see a little bit of commentary on the different box arts available (I believe they sold the game with Alyx and G-Man on the front as well), the infobox caption could be a good place to briefly mention that if it can be referenced. Six gameplay images aren't needed, I'd recommend two at most, one for demonstrating normal gameplay (preferably with some design commentary if possible), and another that shows off some Source effects. The image of Steam isn't 100% needed, although could be justified as Steam was a major factor in the game's release and ran into problems for it. The Orange Box image certainly isn't, and should be ditched. The Lost Coast image is also probably best left to the Lost Coast article.
Sabre (talk) 10:13, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Regarding the content cut article, I am fairly sure that "there's another article on the topic that is poorly written" is not a valid criteria for de-listing an article. Phil Sandifer (talk) 17:16, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
The other reasons are, but we're not talking about delisting yet. This is just in the review stage, we haven't got to removal candidates and with luck we won't need to. Besides, there is no harm in mentioning that a related article is an utter pile of [insert expletive] and should be done away with in some form, when the only significant link on Wikipedia is from the article under review. What happens to the content cut article isn't going to affect the review, it just seems as good a time as any to clean it out. -- Sabre (talk) 17:58, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Considering how intensive Half-Life 2's development was, a future Development of Half-Life 2 article is not unrealistic. The Content cut from Half-Life 2 would find a suitable home in such an article. About this FAR, should we each grab a chunk of the text (e.g. a section), copy-edit it, and then proof read each other's work. I'm eager to dive in and help save the article (considering its my second favorite game and my FAC seems stalled), but I don't want to get too carried away. Thoughts? -- Noj r (talk) 06:19, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

I have given a first stab at cutting down the plot (down to 3 paragraphs, I think that is a pretty fair size). Should still have a setting section, but make sure that this doesn't overlap with City 17 (or Sabre's List of locations in Half-Life that I know he has floating around...) --MASEM 16:05, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I have organized the article. It should look better now. Gary King (talk) 00:05, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
  • It seems a major issue is that the plot and gameplay are screwed up for anyone who hasn't played the game. I've condensed the synopsis more, but I think the characters section should be refactored and shunted into synopsis, and the gameplay rewritten (and sourced this time) so it doesnt start talking about 'Ravenholm' and such until the reader gets to those story elements. Similarly, the plot specific details (such as riding a bugger during X part of the game) can be entirely excised. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 04:02, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
Agreed. I have straightened out the references in the lead and am going to work on the gameplay prose and references next. The plot references need to be supported by a reliable source, e.g. Half-Life Fallout appears to be a fan site. This IGN walkthrough should do the job nicely for the plot section and perhaps most of the gameplay section. EDIT: Finished copy-editing the gameplay section. I cut out a lot of cruft and added references. Feel free to improve on the language and add any significant gameplay features I might have missed. Thanks, -- Noj r (talk) 02:08, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
Excellent, it's looking a lot better now. The article has already improved a lot in the past few days. Gary King (talk) 02:20, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
Pshaw, I know you're just after another FTC star :P Looking further at the development section, I can't help but think that it might be better to merge together some of the headers and go through a more focused, historical view of the development. The Steam section and Soundtrack would remain seperate, but the rest of the information might be better served reformatted and with some additional content focusing on the inception. I know there's Raising the Bar out there at the very least, along with primary sources, so it shouldn't be that hard to bolster the section. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 02:35, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
Off topic moved to talk. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:36, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

I've made some major changes to the article. Could we please start back at the beginning and people list what the article still needs? Preferably in bullet points. Gary King (talk) 16:30, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

There's still absolutely nothing on the cultural impact and influence on the industry, which I would imagine is rather substantial, save for a brief mention in the intro. That puts a hole in the side of the article as far as comprehensiveness goes. -- Sabre (talk) 17:14, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
Got specific sources for that? I wouldn't know where to begin, and I don't really keep up-to-date with Half-Life 2 news. Gary King (talk) 17:29, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Sort of forgot about this little gathering. :-p I've never been a huge fan of the article myself (I don't even remember being that big a contributor!), but I think its problem is that the game was important almost solely because it was so very, very good; not something on which you can really go into great depth in an encyclopaedia article. We might want to talk about its impact on the rest of the industry (physics, character animation and digital distribution off the top of my head) as just mentioned, but that's all a bit wooly and hard to be objective about. --Tom Edwards (talk) 17:53, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

I imagine the fact that the source engine, which was developed primarily for Half-Life 2, has been used by other non-Valve games, is probably worth a mention - rst20xx (talk) 21:50, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
It already says "Several other games use the Source engine developed by Valve including the popular Day of Defeat: Source and Counter-Strike: Source, both of which were also developed by Valve." Gary King (talk) 23:44, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
That covers Valve's Source powered games, but not the few dozen non-Valve games that use Source -- Sabre (talk) 10:27, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
How's this? Gary King (talk) 14:47, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, that should do. -- Sabre (talk) 16:31, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

I have to say, I absolutely hate the idea of breaking off the development information. The length of the prose wasn't that long that it needed to be broken off, and seems to needlessly sidestep dealing with the development section, which in my view was reasonable anyway. I'm going to restore the two sections put into the article, that approach simply isn't needed, especially when you condensed the other sections into one so well. Other than on the issue of spinning out the development section, I'm rather content with the article now, and support its continuation as an FA.

And whilst we're on the subject of spinoff content, might I recommend that some point in the future (could be now, could be after this FAR concludes) that we merge Half-Life 2: Deathmatch into the multiplayer section of this article. There's very little information in it, and due to the fact its just the single-player game with a couple of added weapons, its highly unlikely that it can be expanded on substantially. Most of its content is game guide stuff anyway. HL2DM does have some independent reviews from places like GameSpot and IGN, but it shouldn't be too hard to incorporate them into the article. -- Sabre (talk) 16:17, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

I killed Development of Half-Life 2. I've also organized Half-Life 2#Production. Gary King (talk) 17:22, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
Hmmm not entirely happy with that, there was a lot of (okay, unsourced, but sourceable?) information lost in that "merge" - rst20xx (talk) 22:54, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
Sourcing isn't the problem (well, it was, as most of it is only sourcable to a primary source, but that's besides the point). WP:IINFO comes into play there, the information in that article generally required players knowledge of Half-Life 2 and to a lesser extent Counter-Strike Source. The average reader who hasn't played the game would have trouble following it, or would wonder why a good amount of it is significant. -- Sabre (talk) 23:02, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
I killed off HL2:DM (redirected to #Multiplayer). There was basically nothing to transfer. The only suggestion I might add is that that section have a copyedit, and the specific month of release of HL2:DM added, rather than "3 months later". --Izno (talk) 00:22, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
  • "Doctor Breen’s office at the top of the Citadel, showing the advanced lighting abilities of the Source engine" (image caption) - I haven't played this game and can't remember the last time I played a Source game. As such this caption does very little for me. It looks like a normal light (to me), the caption is basically saying "nah, it's a special light!" without saying why, or without the image making it clear why. The unfamiliar reader (like, um, me) would be a bit confused. IMO. Giggy (talk) 23:07, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
    • Ok, I think the problem here is with the image, rather than the caption. It is in-game, just a light emitter, there's nothing that special about it. I could go for a shot from the beginning of the game, showing the G-man up close, which incorporates effects like color correction, advanced facial animation, lighting and various other effects. -- Sabre (talk) 23:10, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
    • The opening sequence didn't give as good images as I thought. I can't think of where-else in the game to get good shots of the Source engine in practice without going to the Episodes, and their technology is not representative of HL2. That image should be replaced though. -- Sabre (talk) 23:29, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
      • I no longer have the game installed, but if I recall, after the start sequence, when you go out the back following meeting Barney, the sun is such in the sky that you should be able to get some good Sun-related effects there - rst20xx (talk) 21:16, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
        • Do you mean this area? We seem to have a good too many HL2 images uploaded around WP, might as well see if any of them are suitable before cleaning them out under WP:NFCC. -- Sabre (talk) 10:26, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
          • Yes, I think that's it! But you can get the lighting effects much better than that - rst20xx (talk) 01:16, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
            • Very well, I will see what I can get out of my supercomputer with the game on highest later. -- Sabre (talk) 07:36, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
  • So aside from the image, are there any outstanding concerns? Overall it's dramatically better, and though I haven't done a thorough look I think it meets summary style in all aspects now. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 04:31, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
    I haven't done anything new recently as it's gotten a lot better in my opinion. Gary King (talk) 04:48, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
    • Distribution could use citing, as well as the 2nd paragraph of #Contract_dispute. And probably #Third-party_mods. Other than that, it looks much improved! --Izno (talk) 06:18, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
Alright it should be better now. Gary King (talk) 15:43, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
  • I've updated the image I referred to earlier, with a different angle incorporating some lighting effects. The image is here, is that any better for in the article? Its got a nice bit of sun coming across the rooftops, clear soft shadows on the ground, a metrocop with some alpha shading (not very visible at this resolution though) and the Citadel in the background. -- Sabre (talk) 19:27, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
Status. What's up folks? Does this need to go to FARC? Marskell (talk) 08:44, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
I shouldn't think so, I think editor concerns have been addressed. Practically all of mine certainly have been. -- Sabre (talk) 10:26, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
I haven't taken another look at the prose, but I'm assuming it's still in good shape. All my actionable concerns above have been addressed. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 11:53, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
I think we could probably include a little more about the reception of it, but other than that, I should say HL2 is safe from FARC. --Izno (talk) 16:40, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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