Wiki143:Featured article candidates/Ring-tailed Lemur

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 19:34, 28 October 2008 [1].

Ring-tailed Lemur

Nominator(s): Visionholder (talk)

Recently listed as a good article and put through a peer review, the article has seen significant improvement since June, and has been stable (no edit wars) during that time. The Ring-tailed Lemur is a very popular zoo animal and the most widely recognized lemur. Visionholder (talk) 07:52, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Well done here. My first thought is that some of the technical vocabulary should be unpacked. Rather than the monotypic genus, why not dab it [[monotypic|single-member]] genus. Similarly, you could try [[diurnal|active through the day]].
As a reader, I admit that I prefer to see new terms so I can expand my vocabulary. I realize that few readers share that view. I have made changes per your recommendation, including parturition in the Breeding and reproduction section. I opted (pending approval) to maintain the technical terms, but put a very brief definition in parentheses immediately after. To my eyes, this does not add clutter, although I realize some may disagree. I would value your feedback and will consider removing the technical terms per a FA review recommendation. - Visionholder (talk) 19:35, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Will comment at bottom. Marskell (talk) 12:34, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
BTW, this task was completed, hopefully to everyone's satisfaction. Sorry for not noting it earlier. - Visionholder (talk) 20:53, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Don't be afraid of a somewhat larger lead. You might have a sentence on troop sizes, for instance and a bit more on social behaviour.
I have added more social information per your request. Please let me know what you think. If you approve, I will mark this as done.
Good size now. Generally, you should let reviewers make their own strike outs. Marskell (talk) 12:34, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
Good to know. Sorry, it's my first review. I always assumed people struck out text when they finished a task. - Visionholder (talk) 08:23, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
This is close to support, but I'll try and read through it more closely. Marskell (talk) 10:50, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm basically supporting, pending an MoS look over from the specialists and a few minor items.
  • Agonistic behaviour needs to be defined at its first mention. Readers will not be familiar with the term. Ditto sympatric; people can probably deduce the meaning from the context of the section, but it doesn't hurt to define it.
  • In general, numbers below ten should be spelled out. I took care of this in a couple of places but you might check for others. Don't do this with sentences that mix numbers above and below ten (e.g. "from 6 to 25...").
  • This is a little tricky because all of the numbers below 10 that I found are in sentences with a mix of numbers above 10, include decimals, or are running through the Template:Convert. I will need further guidance before I can make any changes you suggest. - Visionholder (talk) 19:35, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
I think I may gotten to the only non-mixed examples myself. Marskell (talk) 12:34, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
In that case, can this be considered done? - Visionholder (talk) 08:23, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Rejig the "suggest...further suggests..." sentence in Evolutionary history. It's odd phrasing.
  • There's some really large paragraphs (I broke up one in Conservation status) which creates a "wall of text" effect on the eyes. Consider splitting a couple more.
  • I'm sorry, but I may also need more suggestions here as well. There might be two in Social systems (first and third paragraphs), but everything else looks fairly small to me. Due to the extra line spacing created by footnotes and the similarity that has with the extra line space between paragraphs, what may appear to be a paragraph on one size screen may be three or four on another... at least on my screen. I'm sure you saw past that. But like I said, I think I'll need a couple specific suggestions. - Visionholder (talk) 19:35, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Not a big deal. Marskell (talk) 12:34, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Mention of predators should probably be moved into Ecology and, if possible, expanded somewhat.
  • The material has been moved, but I do not have additional material to expand it. All of my sources just list the predators and share no additional details. - Visionholder (talk) 19:35, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
  • When mentioning the predators and other animals both the common name and the binomial are bluelinked. Again, the eyes strain. Just link the former.
  • Can nothing be said about cultural references in Madagascar, rather than just the West? Marskell (talk) 13:33, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
  • I have no material that mentions Malagasy cultural references, nor have I even heard of any. I have an opportunity to do some volunteer work in Madagascar next year (October 2009), assuming I am able to raise the money needed to go. Hopefully I'll be able to bring some information back from that trip, if I can find sources to confirm. - Visionholder (talk) 19:35, 19 October 2008 (UTC
  • I didn't find anything in any of my primate or lemur books to indicate any special significance of the ring-tailed lemur in Malagsy culture. I also tried a Google search and checked some of the books listed as references for the Malagasy mythology article. I've found references to the aye-aye and indri, and one even to the black lemur on a particular island off Madagascar, but nothing for the ring-tailed lemur. And I think this actually makes sense. To a westerner, the ring-tailed lemur is a charasmatic animal, but to a pre-Western introduction Malagasy, it would probably be just one of many lemur species that could be seen regularly (and possibly hunted), with no particular significance to that particular species of lemur. That is especially the case since it has a fairly restricted range within Madagascar. Rlendog (talk) 22:57, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
  • I know of only one other source for such information: the library at the Lemur Conservation Foundation. I met the librarian this past spring, so I sent that person an email asking if they knew of any Malagasy cultural references to the Ring-tailed Lemur. It's been more than a week, and I have not heard back. At this point, unless I hear otherwise, I think it's safe to assume that there are no published sources that report such cultural references. - Visionholder (talk) 18:17, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Uh oh. Just realized you're mixing upper and lower case for species names. There has been enormous debate on Wiki in this regard. My own opinion is to do one or the other consistently although some insist on lower case. Either way, it's not consistent here. Ruffed Lemur, Brown Lemur etc. need to be made upper case to match Ring-Tailed Lemur or else the latter needs be rendered ring-tailed lemur throughout. Marskell (talk) 13:47, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Thanks to your note, I did catch one error: the Greater Bamboo Lemur (since it is monotypic) under Taxonomic classification. However, all other mentions of "bamboo lemurs," "brown lemurs," "ruffed lemurs," etc. refer to general types, not specific species. I'm going off of what I read at: WP:BIRD#Bird names and article titles. Please let me know if I'm missing anything. - Visionholder (talk) 19:35, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Yes. My mistake, as they're genera. I did catch the Domestic Cat in Etymology. This now has the capitilization that I prefer. But be warned that this is not a universal opinion... Marskell (talk) 12:34, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for catching the Domestic Cat. Yes, I've seen the debate and have been tempted to chime in on it. However, for this article I'm following the general concensus and the recommedations given in this review. Otherwise, can this task be considered done? - Visionholder (talk) 08:23, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
Oh, and you've really upped the ante on mammal articles by including audio. Good work! Marskell (talk) 13:36, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Thanks!! - Visionholder (talk) 19:35, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Comments -

  • Please spell out lesser known abbreviations such as CITES in the references.
    • Done. I also removed CITES from the author, leaving it only as the publisher. Please let me know if this is acceptable.
  • What makes http://www.dailyllama.com/news/2002/llama143.html a reliable source?
    • The reference was for his passion for lemurs. (Admittedly, I should reference IMDB or a more credible source that notes his role in Fierce Creatures.) Honestly, I'm not sure how to reference this otherwise. Cleese himself says it in the video In the Wild: Operation Lemur with John Cleese and the Santa Barbara Zoo has acknowledged it to me (he's on the board of directors). To be honest, I'm not the type to normally care about entertainment, nor am I likely to ever work extensively on an article under that category. What kind of references are acceptable for non-scientific claims? - Visionholder (talk) 16:48, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
      • On this one, the video would be an acceptable source, since it's basically him stating his opinion. I believe we have Template:Tl or Template:Tl which would format it for you. Better in this case to go straight to the person for the statement, which his own dvd would be. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:09, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:43, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Weak Support - Patience is a virtue. I think it would've been nice if you had waited for the FAT to help. —Ceran(Sing) 21:29, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
    • My apologies to the FA-Team. I guess I misunderstood the deadline as a completion date, not a deadline to start. We were approaching the deadline, and I hadn't seen any activity for the proposal on the FA-Team proposal page. I also had a host of other reasons pushing me on. In the future, I will not make that mistake. Again, I'm sorry. Please don't take offense. - Visionholder (talk) 22:10, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Hehe. No need to apologize, but our copy editing help probably would've helped this article. Btw, I'm going to look over this, prose-wise. —Ceran(Sing) 22:43, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Additional comments - by Script error: No such module "user".
  • The Ring-tailed Lemur (Lemur catta) is a large Strepsirhine primate, and the most recognized of all lemurs due to its long, black and white ringed tail. - Uh oh, first sentence is faulty, try fixing the second half of it. —Ceran(Sing) 22:44, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
    • Yes, while adding more to the lead about their social behavior, I created a dangling, solitary sentence about their anatomy. Since the tail is a distinguishing feature of the species, I was hoping I could tie it into the introductory sentence. I had a feeling I was making a mistake. I will fix it, along with the other problems, tomorrow evening when I get home from my volunteer work at the Santa Barbara Zoo. - Visionholder (talk) 04:26, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
      • General fixes have been made to the opening paragraph, and I believe the first sentence has been properly repaired. Please review at your convenience. - Visionholder (talk) 08:23, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
        I think that this is a great article, don't get me wrong, however I think it can be one of the best with a bit of prose help from some specialists. I'm always up for grabs, if you need me. —Ceran♦(Sing) 22:28, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
        • Help from you or any other prose specialist is always welcome. Just let me know if there's anything I can do to help. - Visionholder (talk) 09:46, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Comments - I have a few observations. Nit picks if you will, and I love to pick nits.
  • Firstly, and I realise you did this to placate another reviewer, I hate the monotypic (single-member) genus Lemur, it is diurnal (active throughout the day). If only cause it sets a precendent of dumbing down that might be applied to my writing.
  • So which way should I go with this? I'll be honest: I favor technical terms. I feel this is a scientific article, and scientific topics should not be "dumbed down", as you put it. (I provide wikilinks whenever possible, and have even created new pages if no information exists about a term.) However, Wiki is a community, so I would like a concensus or a previous ruling on this topic so I know how to proceed. I will delete one of these options, but I need to know which one. - Visionholder (talk) 04:26, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Personally I would follow your instincts. I am not going to object if you do not, it was a comment. I think the case for explaining monotypic is stronger than diurnal - if you don't know what that means it is high time you clicked the link and found out. Sabine's Sunbird talk 04:48, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Changes have been made. Please see my note below. - Visionholder (talk) 08:23, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
  • You have a wealth of nice images, but they are all zoo animals (some obviously so, but this is okay as they clearly demonstate behaviour). But it would be nice to have at least one image of one in the wild - perhaps in the ecology/range section?
  • I realize this, and I am trying to legally obtain images of wild lemurs (this species and others). Most of what I have found have copyrights. A photographer at the Duke Lemur Center and another contact at the Lemur Conservation Foundation said they will provide these photos, but they have not been as forthcoming as my sources for the audio files. Until I go to Madagascar, I'm not sure where to obtain these images. - Visionholder (talk) 04:26, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
  • The following flickr images are on a suitable licence. [2], [3] (actually that guy has a lot), [4]. Some of these photographers have lots of other species and pictures of the environment they live in. Sabine's Sunbird talk 04:48, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Thank you for finding these options. I have selected my favorite and posted it per your request. (I think it was a wonderful addition and greatly appreciate the suggestion.) - Visionholder (talk) 08:23, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
  • No mammalian fossil record has existed in Madagascar until recent times. is confusing. Does it mean that some fossils were discovered last week, or (as I suspect) that all fossil lemurs are from recent time periods.
  • I agree that this was confusing. It has been re-worded per your suggestion. - Visionholder (talk) 08:23, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
  • On the whole I ike this and I will probably support when I have had time to give it a proper read through. Sabine's Sunbird talk 00:28, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Comment on the technical terms issue. I actually prefer them myself—but generally not in the lead and only when unpacked in the body. On Giant Otter I used [[diurnal|active through the day]] in the lead—I think somebody requested it—and then defined it in the body. Note the comment at WP:LEAD "In general, specialized terminology should be avoided in an introduction. Where uncommon terms are essential to describing the subject, they should be placed in context, briefly defined, and linked." Perhaps in this case we can reword to avoid the brackets? The second sentence of the lead is a bit clunky anyway, and should probably be broken up. Marskell (talk) 12:34, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

  • After much debate, I opted to follow your suggestion (and the guidelines in WP:LEAD) and re-word the second sentence while dropping the terms monotypic, diurnal and omnivorous from the lead. To all those interested, please let me know if it looks alright. - Visionholder (talk) 08:23, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
I am a little sorry I brought it up. I don't want the lead to lose info. How about:
"The Ring-tailed Lemur (Lemur catta) is a large Strepsirhine primate and the most recognized of all lemurs due to its long, black and white ringed tail. It belongs to Lemuridae, one of four lemur families. It is the only member of the Lemur genus, which is thus monotypic...It is omnivorous and the most terrestrial of lemurs. The animal is diurnal, being active exclusively in daylight hours.
Here the terms are still included but without brackets and too much cumbersome phrasing. I don't see omnivorous as an esoteric term—no need to remove it. Marskell (talk) 09:12, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
I've made the changes with a few of my own. Since monotypic is used and defined in the body of the article, I did not use "which is thus monotypic." I also compacted "the most recognized of all lemurs" by removing the slighly redundant "all." I did favor your suggestion for the last two sentences in the paragraph. The note about the tail has consequently moved back to the opening sentence. Granted the tail is its more distinguished feature, but I'm worried that it makes the critical opening sentence too long. Or does that first paragraph look fine to everyone now? - Visionholder (talk) 21:33, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm quite happy with it. I don't have a problem with the first sentence. Perhaps Ceran or one of the other copyeditors has an opinion, however. Marskell (talk) 14:41, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Support. I've read the entire article and found it comprehensive, well-referenced, well-illustrated and interesting. - Mgm|(talk) 11:49, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Strong Support. This is probably the single best article I've ever read on Ring-tailed Lemurs. Well-done!--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 16:55, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
  • There are image layout issues throughout, a bit tricky to fix. See WP:ACCESS and WP:MOS#Images. Images go in sections, not above them, but no images under third-level section headings, and if possible, no images facing off the text (but that's the last priority, the other two are accessibility items and more important). Several images need to be juggled. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:41, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
    • I have removed the least important picture, showing a Ring-tailed Lemur eating a tamarind, in order to make room for more important photos and proper alignment/spacing. Images are staggered left-to-right, except for the picture of the mother with twins to avoid placing a left-aligned image under a level 3 heading. All images have been moved into their respective sections. One lemur in the Isalo National Park is facing away from the text, but the lemur nearer the foreground is not, and this placement maintains a left-to-right staggering of images. The only thing that might be questionable is the use of the gallery. However, no one has had objections up to this point, and I feel that it is relatively small and adds quality illustrations to the article... moreso than a {{Commons}} links would. If anything, I could re-word some of the captions to help abbreviate them. Thoughts? - Visionholder (talk) 04:55, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
      • The reproduction picture has been moved back to the left, one paragraph down from the level 3 header. The lemur now faces the text, and images are once again properly staggered. The section grew slightly in length due to the break-up of a large paragraph and the addition of an extra sentence of information about staggered female receptivity. - Visionholder (talk) 19:59, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Support - I gave the prose a massage as I went and feel free to revert any meaning lost. Could explain pelage as I had never encountered the word before but no biggie. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:27, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Thank you very much for the copyedit! The changes looked great. I did reinstate the technical term "multi-male/multi-female" since it is a classification term used in numerous texts on primates. (Sadly, no Wiki page exists for it, but I don't have good defining references or the time to figure out whether it should just be mentioned on the Social network page.) When changing back, I maintained the new sentence structure. - Visionholder (talk) 20:49, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Just to be clear, what cleanup do you want? On the page, I changed "carrying" to "nursing", but the problems with the image's GFDL permissions sound like something the image's owner should fix... but that person is not using their Wiki account any more. Could you please be more specific? - Visionholder (talk) 15:09, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Well, it should be fixed either way, as the current license is outdated and invalid. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 17:01, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Ok, then, images check out. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 19:52, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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