Wiki143:Featured article candidates/Macau/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted 01:11, 7 July 2007.

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Macau

Self-nom. I think this is a very good article along with the topic of Hong Kong. This article has improved significantly recently. Guia Hill 19:36, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

• Comment - just started looking, wil try to give heads-up as I go:

Following the Opium War in 1841, Hong Kong was occupied by Britain and most of the foreign merchants left Macau and it became a quiet place. is ungainly and needs rephrasing.

. However it has continued to enjoy a leisurely multicultural existence and make daily, practical use of its historical buildings, in the process becoming a favourite stop-off for tourists. sounds like a travel brochure and is probaly unnecessary. mention tourism in lead somewhere thoughcheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 00:03, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

More later. cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 23:58, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Can I rephrase in this way: Most of the foreign merchants in Macau left for Hong Kong after the Opium War in 1841. Macau then became a quiet place. Please give me more opinions. For the sentense of However it has continued to enjoy a leisurely multicultural existence and make daily, practical use of its historical buildings, in the process becoming a favourite stop-off for tourists. will be erased right away according to your opinion. Thanks a lot! 70.54.9.155 01:48, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

::Getting there but Macau then became a quiet place. is such a vague sentence as to be meaningless. Better would be a statement about economic activity falling or something I guess..cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 11:57, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

The business and economic activities in Macau declined. is that OK? 70.54.9.155 14:44, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

yep. better.cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 01:08, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

a world class tourist industry... better replace with "significant tourist industry" as teh former sounds like an ad.cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 01:36, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Every one on board was about to give up all hope of surviving this.. "Everyone" (typo) and can be phrased better. "had given up hope.."cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 01:38, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Since at least the 5th century, merchant.. - drop the "at least"cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 01:40, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

All Done!70.54.9.155 02:11, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

: Hong Kong, Japan and Singapore as well joined Macau as.. - lose the "as well"

I wonder whether the second part of this para where this sentence came from is veering into POV territory.cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 02:18, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Citation was added.70.54.9.155 02:38, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Good, though I will see what others thin on this bit.cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 03:34, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

the most well-known... - "one of the best known"

:Over than 150 sea crossings every day between the route of Macau... "There are over 150.."

:Residents of Macau mostly speak Cantonese natively - rewrite

:The coalescent of Chinese and Portuguese cultures and religious traditions for more than 4 centuries has left Macau.. - 4 --> four; coalescent?? umm..blending, mixing, or something else would be better. cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 02:18, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

:The biggest tournament of the year in Macau is the Macau Formula Three Grand Prix in November, when the main streets in the Peninsula of Macau basically and temporarily become a racecourse. - losethe first "in Macau" as self-explaantory, and ractrack instead of racecouse which sounds like its for horses. Also drop the basically and temproarily as also self expamnatory.cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 02:20, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

:osculation.. - oscillation, and incessant means never stopping. Would 'regualr be better adjective here?cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 02:22, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

All Done.70.54.9.155 02:38, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

• Update - much better, those were all the bits that stuck out most and have been dealt with well. It's nearly there. Scanning over it I still feel a bit funny about the prose but I will try and ideentify what it is that stops it flowing nicely.cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 03:34, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

• Comment. The lead basically says: "Macau is a special administrative region. Most of the foreign merchants in Macau left for Hong Kong after the Opium War in 1841." Jumping into the middle leaves too much unanswered. I've restructured some for context, but you're welcome to change it. Might want to explain what "little tiger" is. I jumped down to the Culture section. "Macanese cuisine is unique to Macau, China and which consists of a blend of southern Chinese and Portuguese cuisines, with significant influences from Southeast Asia and the Lusophone world." This seems like an incomplete sentence, and the rest of the paragraph is a bit vague on what makes the cuisine unique. Compare how Indonesia, a recently-promoted FAC, lists enough ingredients to convey the flavour of the cuisine. Gimmetrow 18:20, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your opinions. I added the wiki link of East Asian Tigers at "little tiger" so that readers can figure out what it is in detail. Actually this can be skipped if you mind. The sentense that you above mentioned was changed as: With significant influences from Southeast Asia and the Lusophone world, local cooking in Macau consists of a blend of southern Chinese and Portuguese cuisines. And I also added: Common cooking techniques include baking, grilling and roasting. It is renowned for its flavour-blending culture. Typically, Macanese food is seasoned with various spices and flavours including turmeric, coconut milk, cinnamon and bacalhau, giving special aromas and tastes. Famous dishes include Galinha à Portuguesa, Galinha à Africana (African chicken), Bacalhau, Macanese Chili Shrimps and stir-fry curry crab. The most popular snack is pork chop bun. The most popular dessert is ginger milk and Portuguese-style egg tart. with references in order to list enough ingredients to convey the flavour of the cuisine. 70.54.9.155 19:21, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

• Comment here are the left over issues from my GA review as well as a few new ones:

• A general comment: the article reads too much like a travel guide rather than an encyclopedia article in quite a few places.
• The International rankings section should be removed and any notable information merged into the other sections of the article.checkY Done
• The Culture section contains nothing about sport, film, tv, radio, music, etc.

• You should know that Macau is not a country (I know you compare Macau to countries) and is a very small place that it has very limited products under this section. For radio and TV, I personally believe that these are not culture; and these already mentioned in the topic of communication of Macau. Grand Prix is a kind of sport and is already mentioned in this section.

• International Music festival is mentioned twice in culture. (?)
• The Transportation section still contains too much detail - prices, rickshaw tips, the legal age for driving and airline destinations, etc should not be included. checkY Done
• The Legal system and judiciary section contains too much detail and should be merged into Government and politics. Names of people in specific positions are not required. checkY Done
• The Name section should be renamed Etymology and moved before History. checkY Done
• The Economy section is loaded with far too many Main article links - one or two links relating directly to the section is generally enough. checkY Done
• Quite a few paragraphs are uncited. (which paragraphs?)

(Caniago 22:24, 7 June 2007 (UTC))

• Oppose, various issues. I will point out some in the Demographics section:
• Considered as a special administrative region or dependency, Macau is one of the most densely populated regions and is among the cities with the highest level of population congestion in the world.

Do we really need to know that Macau is densely populated both as a city and a region?

If you asked me this question, it makes no difference for you to ask why "Forbes" told us these things actually.

Forbes just says it's one of the world's most congested cities, it doesn't say anything about regions. It'd be better to go with just 'Macau is one of the most densely populated cities in the world', possibly adding the number of people per square kilometre for more context.--Nydas^(Talk) 19:01, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

• Macau's population is 95% Chinese, primarily Cantonese, Fujianese as well as some Hakka, Shanghainese and overseas Chinese immigrants from Southeast Asia and elsewhere.

'Overseas Chinese immigrants' is awkward, as is 'Southeast Asia and elsewhere'. Suggest changing to 'Macau's population is 95% Chinese, mainly Cantonese and Fujianese with some Hakka, Shanghainese and Overseas Chinese. checkY Done

• The remainder are of Portuguese or mixed Chinese-Portuguese ancestry, the so-called Macanese, as well as several thousand Filipino and Thai nationals.

'So-called' is POV language, maybe describe the differences in usage of Macanese in more detail here, rather than later. 'Mixed' is redundant. checkY Done

• With over 503,000 people (2006 second quarter estimate) living in that region, Macau is now classified and upgraded as a large city.

'Classified and upgraded' is redundant, use 'classified' alone. This sentence could easily be dropped completely.checkY Done

• The gap between poor and rich is relatively large. The government is making an in-depth investigation in mapping out policies and measures to make a rational distribution of resources gained from the economic growth. In order to assist the urban poor, the government has cut its administrative cost, exempted and reduced taxation to boost an overall development of the local economy and upgrading people's living standard.

Reads too much like a political speech. It's filled with nonsense words like 'overall' and 'in-depth'. How does reducing administrative costs help the urban poor? Who are the urban poor in Macau?

"urban poor" was changed to " people from low income group." checkY Done

• Although dual nationality is not recognized by the government of Macau SAR, foreign passports (including Portuguese passports) can be freely used as travel documentation without restrictions, regardless of one's nationality.

Could be shortened to 'Dual nationality is not recognized by the government of Macau, although foreign passports can be freely used as travel documentation.' checkY Done

• The work force in Macau SAR is mainly composed of manufacturing 16.4%; construction 8.3%; wholesale and retail trade, repair, hotels and restaurants 27.1%; financial services, real estate, and other business activities 8.6%; public administration, other communities, social and personal services, including gaming 31.8%; transport, storage and communications 6.8%.

We don't need to know exact percentages; they're probably out of date anyway. checkY Done

But don't you think the figure from late 2006 is up-to-date? don't you think other figures from CIA 2007 is up-to-date?

In a fast growing city like Macau, it is likely the size of economy sectors will change on a monthly basis. I'd try to describe the composition of the workforce in prose format, rather than statistically.--Nydas^(Talk) 19:01, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

• According to recent census figures, of the more than 355,000 persons surveyed, 16.8 percent had no religious affiliation/other, 79.3 percent were Buddhist, 6 percent were Roman Catholic, and 1.7 percent were Protestant. The number of active Falun Gong practitioners declined from approximately 100 persons to approximately 20 after the movement was banned in mainland China in July 1999. There are about 150 Muslims in Macau.

I personally don't think it's necessary to hedge large, rough figures with collaries like 'more than'. 'no religious affiliation/other' is poor phrasing. We don't need to know there are a tiny number of Muslims or Falun Gong members.--Nydas^(Talk) 13:09, 11 June 2007 (UTC) checkY Done

Why we don't need to know there are a tiny number of Muslims or Falun Gong members in Macau? I personally think that it provides a good index to know the diversity of religion and the basic human right in Macau. Falun Gong is completely banned in Mainland China. 70.54.10.204 14:59, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Only twenty people in a city of half a million isn't important (and is unlikely to be accurate). What about Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, Mormons, Jains, etc?--Nydas^(Talk) 19:01, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment. But I personally don't understand what do you want to know actually (it seems to me you don't need to know many things). However, most opinions above mentioned are not very constructive and give no improvement for the article in general.70.54.10.204 14:35, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

The article's prose contains too many unneeded words and phrases. Featured articles on Wikipedia need clear writing.--Nydas^(Talk) 19:01, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

• Fixes needed Some dates need wikilinking, including some full dates in the footnotes. The footnotes don't need to state when a source is in English. The footnotes need to state the publication date of sources when available. See Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dashes) for correct dash usage. Epbr123 01:16, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

  Thanks for pointing out the problem. For the part of the footnotes don't need to state when a source is in English checkY Fixed

• Oppose: This article is too long, much like the Hong Kong article; it feels like the editors have been trying to cramp every available information into it. However, the article should serve only as an introduction. Consider moving some of the detailed discussions to one of the many "main" articles linked from this article, like Economy of Macau. There are also various style problems:

Intro: Most of the foreign merchants in Macau left for Hong Kong after the Opium War in 1841. The business and economic activities in Macau declined. - seems to pop out of nowhere. Leave it in the History section.

why this sentence should leave in the history section? what do you mean by "pop out of nowhere", you didn't explain anyway.74.12.181.96 03:08, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Okay, maybe you just need to integrate it better. The problem is you didn't mention its economy before the "decline" (leaving people wonder what it declined from), and you shifted suddenly from "Portuguese traders" to "foreign merchants". Try something like: "The economy of Macau depends on her interaction with the rest of the world (To mark that you're going to provide an intro about the economy and history). Portuguese traders began settling in Macau in the 16th century, developing Macau into an important trading post for foreign countries(Give a purpose for the Portuguese settling). However, after the Opium War in 1841, most of the foreign merchants in Macau left for Hong Kong (Maybe put a reason here, and also add something about 1841-1999)." A shorter alternative will be to just describe the characteristics of Macau's economy/history, like so: "The economy of Macau depends on her interaction with the rest of the world, most notably her neighbour Hong Kong and Portugal."Feathered serpent 02:56, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Etymology: a fisherboat sailing across the sea one day found itself in an unexpected rainstorm. [. . .] On the specific locale where she set foot on, a temple was built. - more like story-telling, i.e., not encyclopedic. Consider summarizing the myth with fewer sentences and omit the details like "boarding at the eleventh hour", "walk ashore in a glowing aura of light and fragrance", etc. Feathered serpent 02:35, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Etymology always consist the origin of words, and it is quite common to depict it with myth and story. 74.12.181.96 03:08, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

True but it may not be appropriate for this article which is supposed to be factual. In articles like Athens, the only myth-relating sentence is: "In ancient Greek, the name of Athens was the Attic and Ionic names of the goddess Athena." And in Rome, the only myth reference is: "According to legend, the city of Rome was founded by the twins Romulus and Remus on April 21, 753 BC". Similarly this article can simply state the "The name 'Macau' is thought to be derived from the Templo de A-Má, a still-existing landmark built in 1448 dedicated to the goddess Matsu - the goddess of seafarers and fishermen", and put the mythlogy part in the Macau section of the Matsu article. You may give a summary of the story here, but it should not go beyond 2-3 sentences, something like this: "Matsu was said to have boarded a fishing boat and allowed the boat to safely arrive at the port of Hoi Keang. On the specific locale where she set foot on, a temple was built. When Portuguese sailors landed several hundred years later and asked for the name of the place, the natives replied with the name of the temple, A-Ma-Gao (i.e. Bay of A-Ma). 'Macao' or 'Macau' hence came to be used to refer to the whole region "Feathered serpent 02:56, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

This article is not too long indeed, it is only 68 kilobytes, for the article of Hong Kong, it is 79kb and it is an FA article, so your reason is not rational. For the part of your opinion in intro and etymology, I didn't see any problem for these.74.12.181.96 02:45, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

When the article of Hong Kong received FA status it was 45kb only (7th Sept 2005). Many other FA articles are also only around 50kb. Ann Arbor-53kb, Sarajevo-41kb, Canberra-49kb, etc. Of course there are some FAs that are longer, but what I am trying to illustrate is that FA doesn't mean long--we need quality. It is totally fine if it is long and readable at the same time. Here, I am sorry to say it is difficult to extract information from the article. The History section is nice, with the headers and indicators, but for example, the Politics section is so tightly packed together. It is enough, as an intro, to know that Macau is one of the least corrupt, but do we need to know how Hong Kong ranks, how Japan ranks, or even that some guy is 163th? Wouldn't one "4th out of 163 in the Asia sector" be well enough for the job? Feathered serpent 02:56, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

• Support Informative and pretty well written.Avis12 18:36, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Comment: this editor has made only 8 edits, after their account was created on the 20th June 2007. 70.187.183.120 07:30, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

• Support nice article with good photos! nothing objectionable for the time being. UTislander 16:36, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Comment: this editor has made only 4 edits, after their account was created on the 21th June 2007. 70.187.183.120 07:30, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't think you would give me this comment if I vote "oppose". This is my IP which is the same as my account UTislander. 66.46.192.218 15:34, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

:::Comment: so? 74.12.182.133 14:51, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Oppose pending cleanup:

• "Miscellaneous topics" isn't an encyclopedic section heading, and it appears to be only Sister cities.
• See also should be minimized (see WP:GTL) by including articles in the text where possible. Articles already in the text need not be listed in See also. Many of those links, if not already in the text, should be.
• References need a lot of formatting work. Publishers and last access dates are not given on all References and some are unformatted links (see WP:CITE/ES), example—refer to International organization participation; the section of Government, CIA [2] Also, publication dates should be given whenever available, for example, on news sources like http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/24/business/worldbusiness/24macao.html?ex=1327294800&en=150850fd9370148a&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
• Is there any reason all that Further reading can't be alphabetical by author last name?
• External links could be pruned; no need for foreign language sources when English language are available.
• Landmarks is a list which could be converted to compelling prose.
• Full dates (month day, year) are supposed to be linked, example in Landmarks section, see WP:MOSNUM
• Judging by the Landmarks section, the prose could use a serious audit.
  • Macau preserves China's largest group of historical properties in the urban area, as it had almost five centuries of regular oscillation between West and East, after the Portuguese seafarers settled in Macau in the mid-sixteenth century.
• Why is urban area linked, why is sixteenth century linked (see WP:CONTEXT and WP:MOSNUM), and I'm not sure what this sentence is trying to say.
• Incorrect use of dashes and hyphens, see WP:DASH, and
  • Macau International Music Festival - MIMF is basically conducted by the Cultural Affairs Bureau of the Macau SAR Government every year.[66]
• why "basically"? Looking at the next line after that:
  • The 20th anniversary of the MIMF is celebrated with a touch of romanticism. Jazz, Classical music, electronica, Chinese folk-pop, rock and fado will fill Macau's autumn nights with magic. The eclectic programme of 28 performances promises to delight Macau audiences, accustomed to the festival's annual offering of some of the best music from all over the world.[67]
• Unencylopedic prose, tourist-brochure sounding. why are Jazz and Classical music capped, others note? And you can't cite a festival's own website as claiming the best music in the world.
• WP:LEAD is not a compelling, stand-alone summary of the article.

Much work needed to polish this article to FA standards; the above list is samples only. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:29, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

• Thanks for your comment. I am not going to edit this article anymore.74.12.182.133 00:12, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose as per Sandy. Tony 09:33, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
• oppose

1. would like to see more than just one image of the casinos in Macau.
2. would like to see an image in the infobox.
3. intorduction lacks sources
4. Twentieth century section, Government and politics section, Transportation section Demographics section, and Culture section needs more sources.--Sefringle^Talk 05:58, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.