Wiki143:Featured article candidates/Ellis Paul

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted 03:44, 23 February 2007.

Ellis Paul

Self-nominated. Have gone through Peer Review. In the time since the article achieved GA status prose has been reviewed and improved. I have also added content and references to better substantiate the lead paragraph. Have used other musician FAs (Alison Krauss, Elliot Smith)as models and feel that the Ellis Paul article meets all FA criteria in strong fashion. Kmzundel 15:06, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Can someone explain why this nomination is seemingly being overlooked? I'm new at this and am hoping I haven't made some kind of blunder. Kmzundel 02:43, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Very nice work Kmzundel, the article is close to FA standard, but needs some work to bring it over the line. Just a few suggestions:
  • You might consider splitting the References section into "Sources" (which would list the full details of books you have used, and "notes" (for inline cites). Example here
Will consider this change, but all the references are inline cites. Kmzundel 17:59, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
This would need to be implemented. I can make the change in the next few days, see what you think then. + Ceoil 18:42, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Fine with me. Kmzundel 19:16, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
For my own edification - why would this have to be implemented? I looked at the example provided and it seems to be splitting hairs. Also - not to beat a dead horse - but I went to great pains to model the article after what I thought would lead me down the correct path: Here Kmzundel 12:34, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Fine. + Ceoil 20:50, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Ref 16 states that the cite is "brought to you by Happenstance and Doug Coppock" (!)
That's actually the cited website's sub-title and thought it should be included.Kmzundel 17:59, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Jeepers. Sound like it was written in 1932, but thats ok. + Ceoil 18:42, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Detailed fair use rationale need to be added to the ogg files. You can use this template - Image:1979.ogg.
I modeled the fair use rationale after FA Alison Krauss.Kmzundel 17:59, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
That's not to say that they are sufficent. Look at the Smashing Pumpkins review, and tremble.+ Ceoil 18:42, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Will take a look and comment. May not be until tomorrow.
Looks like the Smashing Pumpkins issue was more with images. I should be OK with images since I only used images that I own. I looked at several other FA musicians re: sound samples and the Fair Use rationale seems to be fine (when compared to Alison Krauss and Elliot Smith) but beefed it up per Celine Dion. Kmzundel 03:59, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Loose the flags in the infobox (see here)
Another editor added the flags to the infobox, but I will happily remove them. Kmzundel 17:59, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Oh! You beat me to it! Great! :-) Kmzundel 18:02, 12 February 2007 (UTC) Kmzundel 17:59, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Opening sentence should read "Paul Plissey (born January 14, 1965) (better known as Ellis Paul). This isn't policy, but is more usual, and I think, more logical.
Another editor made that edit and I like it. Two sets of parentheses doesn't seem right. Kmzundel 17:59, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
No problem, its a subjective call. + Ceoil 18:42, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
  • "his father was Executive Director" - maybe mention his fathers name.
Done. Kmzundel 17:59, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
  • "He also played trumpet" - 'also' is redundant.
Removed "also". Kmzundel 17:59, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
  • "It was then that he realized folk music was nothing to make fun of." - The 'make fun of' statement is out of context and reads strangely.
An unusual quote, perhaps, but it supports the previous sentence and nicely describes his surprise at finding folk music. Kmzundel
But the article doesn't mention that he 'made fun' of folk before this. I know what you are getting at, you just need to be more explicit. + Ceoil 18:42, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Let me think about how I can paraphrase that quote and still get it across.
Removed the quote and got the thought across nicely, I think. Kmzundel 19:32, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
  • "and continued to participate in track" - where he continued to participate in track?
Made the change. Kmzundel 17:59, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
  • "He earned his first award in 1989 when he won the Nameless Coffeehouse’s New Songwriter Award" - 'Award' appears twice in one sentence.
Edited the sentence. Kmzundel 17:59, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

These are just from a very brief scan of the article, I'll read it properly over the next few days and post other comments. + Ceoil 16:52, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you so much! Kmzundel 17:59, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
No problem. I'll be back. + Ceoil 18:42, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

The sound file would benefit from better descriptions, good eg's here. + Ceoil 17:54, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Listening to the sound files, he's great! + Ceoil 18:52, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
I'll be back too - when work quits getting in the way.  ;-) Kmzundel 19:16, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Added sentence (description) to the two song sound sample boxes. (And YES, he's great!)  :-) Kmzundel 03:54, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
  • The lead claims that the Boston Music Awards "are considered a pinnacle of contemporary acoustic music success". However, these awards seem to be open to artists from the greater Boston area only.
The awards have been won by artists outside the Bonston area. I will think of a way to re-state that. The quote I had used originally was nixed by another editor. Kmzundel 21:07, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
The source I cite for that statement refers to the Boston Awards at the "New Hampshire primary" of acoustic awards which is the statement I had originally used. Another editor thought that term (New Hampshire Primary)was confusing - see my UserTalk page for his comments - so I re-wrote the statement to what it currently says. Can you help me re-state that? Also, the BMA website says the awards are given to showcase artists "with strong ties to Boston". Kmzundel 22:05, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Ceoil, I revised the "pinnacle of acoustic music" statement a bit when I re-wrote the lead. Kmzundel 15:00, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
  • "Paul went to high school in Presque Isle, Maine, listening to Top-40 radio and participating in track." - Mixed tenses: 'went', 'listening'.
Corrected. Kmzundel 21:07, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
  • "He played trumpet in the stage band" - either 'a' stage band, or 'the school' stage band.
Edited. Kmzundel 21:07, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
  • "..on February 19-21, 1993" - between February...
Re-written as two sentences. Kmzundel 21:07, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
  • "..egos got in the way and End Construction disbanded" - When did this happen, how long were they together as a collective?
Need to find source to cite. Kmzundel 21:07, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Re-wrote that sentence per the cited source. No date (year) was mentioned. Only that they broke up. Kmzundel 22:14, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Ceoil, found another source that I was able to cite saying that they disbanded after 3 years. Kmzundel 05:16, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
  • "The following year in November Paul once again was successful in having a song in a movie when "Sweet Mistakes" was featured in Shallow Hal starring Gwyneth Paltrow and Jack Black." - The following November; "once again was successful" - could be better worded.
Reworded. Kmzundel 21:07, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
  • "Nora Guthrie stated that there was a job description that her father left behind (writing music for the lyrics) that Ellis took on" - meaning is unclear; to me at least.
I had originally used a Nora Guthrie quote "my father left a job description that Ellis took on" but another editor didn't like it. Have to think about how to re-state her quote to make it more clear. Kmzundel 21:07, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Re-wrote those 2-3 sentences. See if you understand the meaning of Nora Guthrie's statement now. Kmzundel 22:27, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
  • "The Nov. 5th episode of the TV series Ed featuring Paul's “If You Break Down”." - not a complete sentence.
Corrected. Kmzundel 21:07, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
  • "was asked to participate in the Ribbon of Highway, Endless Skyway tribute show to honor Woody Guthrie, the brainchild of Texas singer-songwriter Jimmy LaFave." - dangling modifier.
Corrected. Kmzundel 21:07, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

These are examples of prose issues remaining in the text, can you run through to resolve others. Good work so far, however.

  • "The show toured around the country, selling-out auditoriums from coast to coast." - would need to be cited.
Removed that statement until I can cite source. Re-wrote 2 or 3 sentences there. Kmzundel 21:07, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
  • As a general comment the lead is not a concise overview of the article per WP:LEAD; at present it mostly details career achievments, rather than provides a biographical summary. + Ceoil 19:38, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Will need to think about this before making edits. Kmzundel 21:07, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Ceoil, I re-wrote the lead, adding some content and rearranging. Kmzundel 15:00, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks again! Kmzundel 21:07, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Conditional Support The lead still needs a little work; at present bio details take us to his high school knee injury. I've reorganised sightly - and you are allowed to disagree with my edit of course ;) -, my suggestion is that adding a few more bio sentences in the second para would greatly improve the opening.

One final point: would it be possible to split the "Current career" section into two smaller headings; at present it is over long and out of proportion to the other sections. + Ceoil 20:50, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I can do that. Kmzundel 21:14, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Support Meets the criteria. + Ceoil 21:35, 16 February 2007 (UTC)


Comments

  • that had not yet found a home on any recording, - 'found a home' is not a good term
Edited. Kmzundel 10:58, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
  • The beginning of the poem can be heard in the sound sample box. - remove this sentence (we can see the sample box and shouldn't be said anyway)
Removed sentence. Kmzundel 10:58, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Nora is executive director of the Woody Guthrie Foundation - When referring to her use her second name Guthrie
I was attempting to distinguish between the two Guthries. Have edited it to read 'Nora Guthrie".
  • writings to choose one set of lyrics to put to music. - 'to put to' can be better worded
Edited. Kmzundel 10:58, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Nora Guthrie stated that there was a job description that her father left behind that Ellis took on. - I don't understand this sentence, what job? what description? why is this randomly put in? - refer to Nora as Guthrie
Added explanation to make clearer. Kmzundel 10:58, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
  • a popular hymn of the day - POV
Removed 'popular'. Kmzundel 10:58, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
  • The year 2002 closed out - 'closed out' poorly worded
Edited. Kmzundel 10:58, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Done. Kmzundel 10:58, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
  • October 3, 2001 - wikilink
Can't seem to find this date. Will look again later. Kmzundel 10:58, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
  • 13th Boston Music Award, this one in the category - remove 'this one'
Your suggestion is how I had that sentence originally written, but another editor said it sounded like he won 13 awards in that particular category which is why I added "this one" - but I have removed it again per your suggestion. Readers can see the individual BMA categories in the list under Awards. Kmzundel 10:58, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
  • The first two external links link to the same site, remove the 'discussion board' one as there shouldn't be blogs - forum type things.
Can you direct me to policy on this one? I specifically read the MoS re: External Links and did not find anything and forums are linked on both FAs Alison Krauss and Elliot Smith.

Once these are dealt with I'll have another look. M3tal H3ad 08:07, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you! I appreciate your assistance! Kmzundel 10:58, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Just noticed a copy edit you made re: the wording of the Kerrville New Folk Award. You actually reverted back to what I had originally written. MrFizyk felt the statement was misleading - see his Jan. 17, 2007 edit. See also the Kerrville Folk Festival section on my UserTalk page. Kmzundel 12:13, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
  • WP:EL # 10 discussion boards add nothing to the article anyway. M3tal H3ad 07:27, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Thank you! Removed external links to MySpace and Discussion Board.Kmzundel 11:08, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Support M3tal H3ad 08:43, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you again! Kmzundel 10:41, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Comment Hello chaps. To be honest I haven't read the entire article because I am completely unfamiliar with the artist, I'll maybe get round to reading and casting a vote later. However, I did do some small edits to help the article, and I've got some suggestions. The lead is fine, but beef up the middle paragraph with a concise summary of how he got into music and perhaps say how and when he gained fame as a musician. I also feel that the review quote in the lead feels a bit out of place and could perhaps be placed later on in the article, historically closer to that album's release. My last point is to do with the media: Good job with all the free photos, and a nice selection of samples, but they need better descriptions/captions to explain to the reader why they are there or why they are significant. Use the descriptions to highlight the aspects of his music/career they exemplify, or any other significance they hold. Just spell out for the reader how these photos/samples add to the text. I hope this is a help. =) - Phorque 22:50, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Agree with Phorque's point that a direct quote in the lead contravenes 2a. + Ceoil 00:24, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Thank you both. I moved the quote from the lead paragraph to the "songwriting" section where songwriting style is discussed. Kmzundel 05:16, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Have beefed up the 2nd paragraph of the lead. Kmzundel 05:16, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
*Not sure (kinda brain-dead right now) about the song sample captions. Re-read what's there and combined with the article's content (which you admitted not reading) I think they're OK. May re-visit tomorrow. Kmzundel 05:16, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
OK! It's a new day! Just added a bit of description to the sound samples and the first (Maine) image. Let me know if that beefs things up enough. Kmzundel 12:08, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Thanks Phorque for the awesome Discography table.  :-) Kmzundel 05:16, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
No problem, wiki tables are fun. =P Good work with the lead! - Phorque 16:02, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Support In the spirit of lighting a candle rather than cursing the darkness, I went in and edited the captions to my liking. It was an easy task as this is a well-written, interesting and informative article that, with the final touches that are being done through this nomination, will be more than worthy of the Featured status. The images and samples are a nice addition to the article. My final suggestions for improving the article are:

  • Providing some kind of external link and/or reference(s?) for the "Awards" section, even if you re-use sources used in the prose.
  • The best I could do was link to his website biography. Is that OK? Sadly, the Boston Music Awards website stinks and does not provide any historical information, nor have I ever been able to find a compiled listing of winners anywhere else. I do have a list that *I* have compiled that I could link (it's on a website that I maintain), but I'm not sure that would be appropriate. Kmzundel 17:20, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Explaining either in words or with a wiki-link what "the Mount" is in one of Ellis' quotes regarding the Guthrie festival.

I'm assuming he was talking about some kind of holy or significant mount that one would make a pilgrimage to or something? (couldn't find anything else giving it away in the external link either... am I being uncultured not knowing what he's on about?)

  • Well, that's a trick question.  ;-) I'm certain he was referring to the same mount (The Mount of Olives) that Jesus went to as told in the Bible. "Going to the mount" means being close (or attempting to be close) to one's God or communicating with same God. Have wiki-linked it. Kmzundel 17:20, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

That's all. Good work! - Phorque 16:02, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

  • Thank you for lighting the candle. This is my first Wiki experience and you, Ceoil and M3tal H3ad have helped me learn alot from your support, patience and encouragement. Kmzundel 17:20, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.
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