Wiki143:Featured article candidates/Ayyavazhi/archive2

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted 02:51, 6 February 2008.

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Ayyavazhi

previous FAC (03:19, 20 December 2007)

Nominator - PAUL RAJ 13:25, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

• Support This article is previously nominated here by User:Lalu Hrishikesh; The article is currently a Good article and now all suggestions made during the previous nomination are done, Thanks. - PAUL RAJ 13:31, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

• Object per last time. Are there ISBNs for those books? Who are the publishers? Are these people qualified religious experts. Also the refs need to follow MOS, "pp" for multiple pages and "p" for single page and not caps. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 01:14, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Regarding citation in Ayyavazhi article, all contents other than beliefs (related to facts) and certain statements interacts with outside-ayyavazhi matters (history, sociology, impacts of it's teachings in the society) are all cited with Historian books, University papers, Government publications, mostly online (From that of two states, Tamil Nadu & Kerala) etc. Note that the sections, "History" (almost every lines of this section is cited with University papers) "Teachings and Impact", "Worship centers" ect carries large number of citations from Creadible third party sources. And the rest, (i.e) belief related things are only cited with Ayyavazh based publications. And for even that the publications are listed over there. And these books are from creadible authors (inside Ayyavazhi belief) and their works are the largest selling ones among Ayyavazh community. Regarding ISBN, Many books in India doesn't carry ISBN status. One example, note that even a reserch Paper (Religion and Subaltern agency) from one of the three oldest and Creadible Universities in India lack ISBN.

And the MOS corrections for "pp and p" will be done today. And thanks very much for your valuable suggestions - PAUL RAJ 13:12, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

DONE. - PAUL RAJ 17:48, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

• Comment: there is no such word as "censeii", perhaps "censuses" is meant.--Grahame (talk) 05:14, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Comment: This was addressed in GAN as per my comment. On further research (Plûrâlitâs Latîna and Latin Fourth Declension Nouns ) the Latin plural of census is census as the word census is a masculine noun of the fourth declension. The word census is not pluralized similar to these words platypus - platypi; octopus - octopi; syllabus - syllabi. There is usage amongst English speech of the word censuses, and so the purist plural of census to census has now become censuses in dictionaries of common terminology. So it does seem that the plural can be census or censuses.SriMesh | talk 15:22, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

DONE. - PAUL RAJ 13:12, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

• Support The article had gone through a vast and overall improvement since the last time. - White Dot...!!!_® 12:48, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• Support This article gives an excellent overview of the subject. It has only gotten better, and with the editors prompt and patient attention to all concerns it will continue to improve. SriMesh | talk 15:10, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose:

• This article is difficult to understand for a person who is not conversant in Tamil. Here are some sentences which are difficult to comprehend:

... "to worship Vaikundar (historically known as 'Mudisoodum Perumal' and 'Vaikunta Swami')[28] (1809 C.E – 1851 C.E)[29] at Swamithoppe, the then poovandanthoppe." What is meant by poovandanthoppe??

• Reply: Poovandanthope is the then name of Swamithope. - PAUL RAJ 08:07, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

• Can you mention that in the article..

• Have alredy mentioned in the article as "Swamithoppe, the then Poovandanthope". - PAUL RAJ 19:00, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

One change could be: Ayyavazhi began to be noticed initially by the large number of people gathering to worship Vaikundar (birth name 'Mudisoodum Perumal' ) (1809 C.E – 1851 C.E) at Poovandanthoppe. Presently Poovandanthoppe is known as the town of Swamithoppe. SriMesh | talk 05:22, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Done. - PAUL RAJ 14:10, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

... "Nizhal Thangals under guidance from Akilattirattu Ammanai arose across the country to also recognise Ayyavazhi." What does this mean?

• Reply: It means that, As per the instructions of Akilathirattu (Akilam) the Nizhal Thangals are established across the country. In that way they regognised their belief and scriptures. - PAUL RAJ 08:07, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

• Nizham Thangal is a Tamil word. If it means a temple, please mention that in the article..

• It was told in the very first sentence of the section Worship centers. (If needed please re-word it. - PAUL RAJ 19:00, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

The other sentence of the article was...Nizhal Thangals, compared with Pathis generally, were simple small structures built for the purpose of worship and for learning the teachings of Vaikundar.

so a reword of the quotation in question... Nizhal Thangals under guidance from Akilattirattu Ammanai arose across the country to also recognise Ayyavazhi. could be

As per the instructions of Akilathirattu (Akilam) the Nizhal Thangals (small pagodas) are established across the country for worship and study of scripture. SriMesh | talk 05:22, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Done. - PAUL RAJ 14:10, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

... "The mythical narration of akilam about the eight yugas is often viewed philosophically as eight chakras." What does this mean?

• Reply: It means that, the narrations about the 8 yugas as in Akilam is viewed by certain theologians as Eight Chakras, where the path of one's (human being) atman is divided as eight yugas, each yuga are suggested to be achieved by oneself. The 'for and against' forces in each stages (of his path) is Devas and asuras and their leading powers, and on - PAUL RAJ 08:07, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

• Incomprehensible. Can the language be simplified and made devoid of non-English words as much as possible.

• Please do. My english may not be up to the level. - PAUL RAJ 19:27, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

For more information about each individual yuga see the template Ayyavazhi. For chakras there is more information at Chakra. Theologians have interpreted the 8 yugas mentioned in the Akilam as correspondences to the eight Chakras. SriMesh | talk 16:17, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

... "The reigning power in the final Dharma Yukam (Sahasrara) is Ekam or the supreme absolute." What is reigning power?

• Reply: Ayyavazhi's believe Akilam and Akilam says that one's foremost achievement is Dharma Yukam and the supreme self is the reigning power(ruling authority) over there. This is a belief of Ayyavazhi and it was noted in the appropriate section there in the article. - PAUL RAJ 08:07, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

This statement also relates to the yugas or chakras which was not understood. Will comment more.

The highest spiritual center of enlightenment is the Sahasrara. (which would also be a re-word

Done. - PAUL RAJ 14:10, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

of the same statement. This would explain reigning power in other words. 70.64.182.182 (talk) 04:19, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes rightly told; Dharma Yukam was compared to the Sahasrara. - PAUL RAJ 12:43, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

... "1008 M.E", what is M.E.?

• Reply: M.E notes Malayalam Era. - PAUL RAJ 08:07, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
• Done. - PAUL RAJ 08:07, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

... "This spirit (regarded as evil) has been destroyed by Vaikundar, who will transform the world to Dharma Yukam, the 'world of righteousness'[80]". We are not proselytising this religion through Wikipedia, are we? There are more like these. The above ones are just examples...

• Reply: This is the belief related article and so it was noted like wise. I don't believe this is proselytising something, because only the sections which are based on the belief of the people (Ayyavazhi's) carries such statements. Also, in that case any thing like, 'Akilam states that' 'said to be'(by akilam) (or) 'As per the Ayyavazhi belief' will be noted at the entrance of the section. Note that the sections, History, Etymology, Scriptures and Holy places, Worship centers doesn't carry any such statements. But in case something related to the 'belief' is needed to be noted, then every such sentence begins with 'as per Ayyavazhi belief' or 'Akilam states etc. - PAUL RAJ 08:42, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

This spirit (regarded as evil) has been destroyed by Vaikundar, who will transform the world to Dharma Yukam, the 'world of righteousness

This statement could also be re-worded to...

Kali Yuga, a mundane world separated from spirituality will give rise to a time known as Dharma Yukam, a spiritual world. SriMesh | talk 05:22, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

• Can the authors comment on the reliability of citations from websites like cinesouth.com, tsi.org.in, kheper.net, poongaa.com, nadar.org, nairs.org, tamilstar.com?

• Reply: tsi .org: is a website noting Tourism in Chennai(Tamil Nadu) noted Swamithope among other Important temples. It calls Swamithope as the headquarters of Ayyavazhi. This is infact not a major issue. There is also another citation for that in the article.

• That does not answer its reliability. Needs to be removed...

Okey, if needed. - PAUL RAJ 19:00, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

• kheper.net: is just cited for the Hindu view of the Sahasrara. The same website is cited in the Hindu article Sahasrara.

• Hindu view? Is kheper.net an authority on Hinduism?

• The view on Sahasrara is made on the basis of the teachigs of a Hindu Guru. Also the Sahasrara article(Hindu) crries this as citation. - PAUL RAJ 19:27, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

• poongaa.com: There is no such website there in the article. Possibly removed.

• Citation 76 is poongaa.com.

• Sorry, I don't find it. And, this is purely belief related and a POV based on belief. I(an Ayyavazhi) believe Akilam, and it states that "God is within you". And it was mentioned there. This need not be weighed from a reliability scale. - PAUL RAJ 19:00, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

• nadar.org: This is just a POV. And it was noted in the sentence as "is believed that".

• Does nadar.org represent the community and is a reliable source?

• The site includes that message from the works of Herodotus. - PAUL RAJ 19:00, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

• nairs.org: This is just an outside view over Vaikundar. Note that they don't believe Vaikundar as a God but instead as a saint. It was independent to Ayyavazhi. It was cited just to say the outside view about Vaikundar.

• Whose outside view? What authority does nairs.org have in this context?

• Chattambi swamikal hails from Nair community, and he is considered as the guru of them, also in the website (see the image). Chattambi swamikal is a Hindu(an Adavaithic) (Also noted in the other wiki articles. That site itself calls Chattambi swamigal as a successor of Vaikundar. - PAUL RAJ 19:27, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Nairs.org home page also states. Run by Udayor, in association with Sree Vidyadhiraja Vikasa Kendram (regd.), Thiruvananthapuram, India SriMesh | talk 05:22, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

• tamilstar.com, cinesouth.com: These are leading cine websites from Tamil Nadu. A movie was recently launched based on the life of Vaikundar. This cinema websites made reviews about the subject of the film. And they had also noted the impact of the subject (Vaikundar and Ayyavazhi) in the society. This sources are cited here because they are the leading sites from Tamil Nadu and also independent to Ayyavazhi. They are reliable. - PAUL RAJ 08:38, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

• Leading sites dont make them reliable. Example, orkut is a leading site but its hardly reliable. -- ¿Amar៛^{Talk to me/My edits} 16:52, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

• Leading sites are reliable. But orkut is not since it is a forum where any one can pass a comment. But the sources cited in the article are from authentic reviews from experts in the subjects, and hence become a lead. These sources are similar to leading news papers. Compare News papers vs Forum!!! - PAUL RAJ 19:00, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

• Articles needs a thorough copy-edit for grammatical errors and MoS issues. More later

• Reply: If there is any such Copy edit faullts still as per Mos, it will be cleared soon. - Thanks for your valuable suggestions. - PAUL RAJ 08:38, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

• More comments: I will restate that this article is incomprehensible. Can someone tell me what this means: "One because Kaliyan bought all the Vedas and the powers of all God-heads as boons from Siva, the then supreme of all Devas.[167] So all Gods and the scriptures have to obey him. Secondly, Kaliyan performed several additions to the true scriptures for his comforts and so it could not be identified that, which parts of them are genuine. So for this time, all true scriptures had gone awry and the god-heads get bounded to Kaliyan and remain unhelpful." and this "The Santror are given a historical background in Ayyavazhi mythology as seven boys who were made to born in Ayodha Amirtha Vanam by using the seven seeds from seven upper worlds, by Thirumal, to the Seven virgins through their instrumentality. There is also a view that these seven boys are the ancestors of the whole human race, and hence the term 'Santror' refers to the whole Human race.[159]" and this "Many of the deep-thinkable philosophical concepts are merely mentioned with their names in Akilam and the description is left to be found from somewhere so, it is unavoidable to refer Hindu scriptures for undergoing a religious study on Ayyavazhi theology.[125] For example the 96 properties of Human body, Tatvas is just mentioned in Akilam while saying about the qualities and features of Kaliyan.[126] It is essential to understand each one of the 96 tatvas to understand about Kaliyan." This article needs a complete rewrite -- ¿Amar៛^{Talk to me/My edits} 02:31, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

• These are all based on the belief of Ayyavazhi. And these are the reasons stated by Akilam for the existing (Hindu) scriptures. And was mentioned in that section. But the last sentence ("Many of the deep-thinkable...") states that why Hindu scriptures are needed to be refered to Understand Ayyavazhi and Akilam. And was stated so in the article. That too is an Ayyavazhi view and was cited with Ayyavazhi based book. And if it was needed to be re-worded(copy-edit) to make it more clear I accept it to be done. In such case pls do it since Iam not well-versed in English and any my further edits will make further clean-up. Thanks - PAUL RAJ 19:00, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Quotation 1: "One because Kaliyan bought all the Vedas and the powers of all God-heads as boons from Siva, the then supreme of all Devas.[167] So all Gods and the scriptures have to obey him. Secondly, Kaliyan performed several additions to the true scriptures for his comforts and so it could not be identified that, which parts of them are genuine. So for this time, all true scriptures had gone awry and the god-heads get bounded to Kaliyan and remain unhelpful."

Could be re-worded as ...

Kaliyan was a part of the mundane primordial manifestation who spread maya or illusion upon the scriptures. In Kali Yuga, all true scriptures are bound to maya and are unhelpful.

Done. - PAUL RAJ 14:10, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

'The other Quotation 2...The Santror are given a historical background in Ayyavazhi mythology as seven boys who were made to born in Ayodha Amirtha Vanam by using the seven seeds from seven upper worlds, by Thirumal, to the Seven virgins through their instrumentality. There is also a view that these seven boys are the ancestors of the whole human race, and hence the term 'Santror' refers to the whole Human race.

Could be reworded possibly as...

Santror, (Chanars) are those who have the ability to see 'the invisible' constantly. The Santror are given a historical background in Ayyavazhi mythology as seven boys who were made to born in the mythical river Ayodha Amirtha Vanam by using the seven seeds from seven upper worlds, by Thirumal, to the Seven virgins. Their lineage started at the end phase of Dvapara Yukam and continued through the Kali Yukam into the Dharma Yukam.

Done. - PAUL RAJ 14:10, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

And Quotation 3...Many of the deep-thinkable philosophical concepts are merely mentioned with their names in Akilam and the description is left to be found from somewhere so, it is unavoidable to refer Hindu scriptures for undergoing a religious study on Ayyavazhi theology. For example the 96 properties of Human body, Tatvas is just mentioned in Akilam while saying about the qualities and features of Kaliyan. It is essential to understand each one of the 96 tatvas to understand about Kaliyan.

Could be reworded possibly as...

As Joseph Campbell said,

myth is the secret opening through which the inexhaustible energies of the cosmos pour into human manifestation.

The philosophy and myth of the Akilam scriptures and terms are the basis of religious study on Ayyavazhi theology. For example, if the 96 tatvas are understood, then the Kaliyan is understood. Therefore theologians and philosophers in the day of Kali Yuga turn to Hindu scriptures to further their understanding of the tatvas as properties of Human body. SriMesh | talk 05:22, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Done. - PAUL RAJ 14:10, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose - Several problems with this article. Also several editors in the past have raised concerns about original research, POV, notability, RSness of the sources and many more such basic and overwhelming concerns. All these concerns still remain and little or nothing has been done to address them. Grammar and prose, inadequate as they certainly are, are infact, the least of the concerns. Sarvagnya 06:10, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Reply:Actually from these 3 links ( original research, POV, notability, RSness of the sources) provided by you above, I don't understand anything.

• This comment (original research) was made some 20 months ago when the article was like this. The contents heavily varries. Please compare to the present version. Not even that section is there in the article presently.

• This comment (Tagged_as_NPOV) was made some 11 months ago when the article was like this. Here too the article varries considerably (i.e) Religion vs sect. Many Newspaper reports are added afterwards as citations for that. If needed I'll revert to this version which carry vast referencing.

• This comment (POV) may be the greatest comedy ever in the wikipedian history. Calling such a cited article(from including government reports and university papers) a hoax. I've nothing more to tell about that.

But still I sense a uniformity between them regarding the issues raised on the availability of the Book, "Religion and Subaltern Agency" and relaibility of it's author and publisher for which I've replied many many times.

Once more here, Publisher of the book: Department of Christian Studies, University of Madras. One of the leading and oldest Universities in India, and hence the source is reliabile. For availability, the book is even cited online in one of the link you provided here(But not found now; that's pity) when the same issue was raised by them, then. And if needed I'll scan the book for proving it's availability.

Overall Idon't understand one thing;

Once it was told that Ayyavazhi is a long hoax saying no citations for the article at all. When I add third party citations from several leading University papers, Kerala Government reports (School syllabus), Tamil Nadu State Council(Education), All the leading news papers from Tamil Nadu, independent websites etc, it was commented that "The article was over referenced" See this link." And so, I removed all citations(almost 50 % of them out of 50 citations in the lead section alone) from leading news papers from Tamil Nadu which all proves Ayyavazhi's existence from the lead section. Please see the vast number of citations in the lead, then. When all those were removed for the readers comfort, now the same, very old, near useless issue that no citation, Original reserch, and POV are raised up.

And the remaining citations are all belief related matters. And they are all cited from top selling(Among Ayyavazhi readers) Ayyavazhi books. Note that thses books are not considered as citation for society related matters which tells the impact of Ayyavazhi or Vaikundar outside Ayyavazhi universe. I've told that Iam ready to scan each and every book I used as citations; I've told this too to many users many times. Once again Iam telling, If needed I am ready to do that.

And you are telling that "All these concerns still remain and little or nothing has been done to address them." I've replied to every one's every comments, cited with appropriate sources and made several changes to the article. What more? - PAUL RAJ 13:00, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

You dont get the point. Or you dont want to get the point. The point is not that the author or the book is a figment of your imagination. The point is -- "Who is this Pastor G Patrick? What are his credentials? He's a 'pastor' (a Christian, I presume).. so what is it that qualifies him to write a whole book about Ayyavazhi and how is it that you expect us to take a non-expert's words at face value? If Pastor G Patrick is indeed a subject matter expert, then prove it to us from third party reliable sources. Writing and publishing books doesnt make anybody an expert on anything.

And then, the question of notability. The Hindu, based as it is, in Tamil Nadu, is the only newspaper that can plausibly afford any coverage for this religion/sect/cult. And all that a google search on The Hindu turns up is a measly single hit -- and that too, on a closer reading has nothing to do with the subject of this article. There is nothing, not so much as even a passing mention of this religion/sect/cult in any leading newspaper or magazine from anywhere in India or the world.

Now, we ought not grudge an article about an obscure subject becoming FA... but it has to, at the very least be sourced from reliable sources. These are things that editors like Blacksun, Parthi, Sundar, Indianstar, Balajivishwanathan, myself and others have tried to impress on you over and over and over again and you have only stonewalled. Please stop taking this discussion around in circles. Sarvagnya 18:23, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Considering as my fate Iam repeating my replies once more which I've told 99999... times earlier.

• G. Patrick is a proffessor in the department of Christian studies, University of Madras. And the book, Religion and Subaltern Agency is his theisis (academic reserch) for his 'PH.D.' Do any body here, feel that every Tom and Dick may become a Proffessor is a creadible University in India.
• Then, leave Patrick, Mind that the book is directly published and recognised from a leading and one among the Oldest Universities in India. So are you telling that a reserch work from such an University is increadible?

• And regarding notability, If you think that The Hindu, is the only reliable source in India then sorry friend, I don't believe so. For me there are several Leading News Papers in Tamil Nadu(including a daily, one among the largest circulated in India). I proffesionally is a News Agent for Newspapers in Tamil, English and Malayalam languages. I very well know which newspapers will cover (news coverage) news from deep interior regions and which of them will not even hear any such news.

• Even Tamil Nadu as well as Kerala govt publications and several Universities noted Vaikundar as a reformer and the impact of his movement in the society. If none of these sources are reliable for you and other editors (you noted) ... Friend, I am not here to tell anything to you. - PAUL RAJ 20:02, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

As the main member of the assessment team of WikiProject India, I'm curious at how this article was even passed as a GA with the references it uses (the quantity is impressive, the quality is what is in question). So, I may reassess the article in terms of GA assessment, and although this will not directly interrupt the FA process, it may influence the result in the FA process. Ncmvocalist (talk) 09:56, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Will you let me know what was the fault with the 'quality' of the references? Note that all the citations (including those related to Ayyavazhi belief and other social related) are discussed many times earlier including here. If needed I'll explain all of them once again in detail, Thanks. - PAUL RAJ 00:45, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose. Um ... where do I start? Let's look at the opening. First, newspapers are not admissible as proper sources, since their objectives are different from research-based ones that we are used to seeing as supporting evidence for information in WP articles. Even if they did survive in the second sentence, the fact that they appear before "academic research" is odd. Which Indian census? Year? Why say "a majority of" when you could furnish us with the actual percentage? "Therefore" isn't quite the basis of the logical inference you're assuming here. And then you tell us that it has been considered a Hindu sect since the 19th century ... why do we need the (modern) census as proof, then? Jumbled. And the claim is repeated more vaguely at the end of the lead. Remove "its" before "mythology". No comma after "followers". You don't "surprise" a system. "Although" is better than "Though" in formal writing. You "present" to the doctor, not throughout a country. I can see lots of MOS breaches and generally faulty prose, just flicking through the rest of the article. Not only linguistic glitches, but issues of logic and flow pervade the article. This is definitely way below the required standard. Tony (talk) 05:51, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

"First, newspapers are not admissible as proper sources, since their objectives are different from research-based ones that we are used to seeing as supporting evidence for information in WP articles. Even if they did survive in the second sentence, the fact that they appear before "academic research" is odd."

Reply: Ayyavazhi is cited as a religion from both several leading newspapers and Academeic reserch (a book cited there from Madras University.

"Which Indian census? Year? Why say "a majority of" when you could furnish us with the actual percentage?"

Reply: Indian census does not collect datas on subsects and hence lack of the actual precentage. On the other hand still there are references presented from both leading Newspapers and Academic reserch for the large number of followers.

"And then you tell us that it has been considered a Hindu sect since the 19th century ... why do we need the (modern) census as proof, then?"

Reply:It was not noted that Ayyavazhi is considered as a Hindu sect since 19th century and provided with a citation. But that, Ayyavazhi began to be considered as a Hindu sect and cited there and seperately mentioned that now there is a view that Ayyavazhi as a sect apart from that of a religion and cited eith different source. Again here I am telling, that Indian census doesnot collect datas on Subsects.

"And the claim is repeated more vaguely at the end of the lead. Remove "its" before "mythology". No comma after "followers". You don't "surprise" a system. "Although" is better than "Though" in formal writing. You "present" to the doctor, not throughout a country."

Reply: Actually I don't understand the above comment. But what I understand is what you told, then see that all of them are cited over there with University papers, Leading news papers etc. If any MOS correction needed please comment on. - PAUL RAJ 09:20, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

The article is definitely well below any standard, even without references, which is why it failed the GA reassessment. Ncmvocalist (talk) 07:35, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Reply: If the article still lack any MOS corrections, standards written prose and appropriate Image licencing ect, it will be done soon. All other than that including the relaiability of sources are very much answered many times over here. Thanks - PAUL RAJ 09:20, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear somewhere in the review, so I will make myself plain: clearly, despite having 'answered many times over here', there is still no consensus between editors on the reliability/verifiability of the references used. The doubts are very logical, reasonable and valid, and I don't think the answers eliminate these doubts. Until consensus is reached on this issue, this article will not achieve a grade that is higher than a 'B'. In other areas, the article certainly is no where near FA quality, and will need a lot of work to even come up to a GA standard. Ncmvocalist (talk) 10:07, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Leave the reliability of citations. Regarding the other reasons for which you feel the article does not fits the FA status, can you help on those issues (MOS, prose etc), Thanks. - PAUL RAJ 14:45, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

• Object:

• Earlier today, this article failed as a GA during the GA reassessment (reasons cited on the articles talk page). In terms of FA criteria (which are the more narrow GA criteria anyway!), the article has not been professionally written and fails to comply with the Manual of Style guidelines. In addition to this, there is a reasonable and significant doubt as to the credibility/reliability/verifiability of the sources used to reference this article. This article is clearly no where near the required standard of a FA. Ncmvocalist (talk) 11:39, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Reply:Overall, All issues including the MOS and the Image licencing (if there is any) will be solved soon. But when the credibility, reliability etc.. is raised as an issue, then I respectfully disagree with those who consider even citations from publications from two state governments, Leading Universities, and leading News papers etc as not reliable or creadible. - PAUL RAJ 14:40, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I cannot help in fixing the other issues with the article due to other committments. In any case, these issues cannot be fixed 'soon' as it will require a lot of time, effort, and hard work as the article(s) needs to be improved drastically in some areas.

Unfortunately, I cannot "leave" reliability as it is a major issue when trying for FA or GA. Without consensus on the references issue, like I mentioned earlier, this article has no chance of achieving a grade higher than a 'B' either now, or in the future. So on behalf of the WikiProject India Assessment Team, I wish you the best in attempting to achieve consensus so this article has a chance. Ncmvocalist (talk) 01:08, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Reply: Iam not telling that "reliability isn't a major issue". But that IMHO I've cited authentic sources for every things with including Leading University papers, Leading News papers, and from publications of two State Governments, except belief related statements. And those 'belief related statements are cited from leading theological publications from Ayyavazhi. And so, by now I don't feel that i need to convince somebody for who even these University, News paper and govt sorces are unreliable.

And regarding the Tamil terms there in the article, those are names. Names should be names; what ever the language. Then several terms which are mentioned in Tamil in the aritcle are called so in scriptures and by the people. So it should be mentioned so. For example "Chakra" is not a English word; But it was mentioned as so. May be, if needed its appropriate to describe a bit.

And Regarding Vaikundar, no need for any confusion. Vaikundar is mentioned throughout the article as if the view point of the article Ayya Vaikundar. Apart from these if any MOS correction needed please specify and will be done soon. - PAUL RAJ 07:27, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.