Wiki143:Articles for deletion/Tivo Hacking
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This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record.
The result of the debate was delete. – ABCD 20:51, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Tivo Hacking
- Wikipedia is not a how-to. Either Delete or transwiki to somewhere more appropriate. Slac speak up! 01:23, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Comment. Is this even legal to post on here? Zscout370 01:36, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Yes it is perfectly legal. Agree that Wikipedia is not a how-to, but some of this can be merged to Tivo#Tivo_hacking. Merge and redirect as appropriate, then transwiki the most explicit details to Wikisource and allow for further organic growth there. --GRider\talk 18:44, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Ok, it might be sold on Amazon, but since this is a new technology, we are treding on new legal territory. To err on the side of legality, we shold not post this. There are numerous other sites that post this content, so it is not like we are the only ones to talk about it. People sell things alot online, but many of it is not legal. Zscout370 19:27, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- See my comment below to DaveTheRed. Irrational fear is not a valid reason for deletion. --GRider\talk 19:51, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- What we can do is say the concept exist, but not place the whole process, since that is the sticking point me and others on here have about this page. If the article turns out to be a stub after the editing, then we could send to the Tivo page. Until then, my vote for Delete still stands. Zscout370 20:45, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- See my comment below to DaveTheRed. Irrational fear is not a valid reason for deletion. --GRider\talk 19:51, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Ok, it might be sold on Amazon, but since this is a new technology, we are treding on new legal territory. To err on the side of legality, we shold not post this. There are numerous other sites that post this content, so it is not like we are the only ones to talk about it. People sell things alot online, but many of it is not legal. Zscout370 19:27, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Yes it is perfectly legal. Agree that Wikipedia is not a how-to, but some of this can be merged to Tivo#Tivo_hacking. Merge and redirect as appropriate, then transwiki the most explicit details to Wikisource and allow for further organic growth there. --GRider\talk 18:44, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Comment. Is this even legal to post on here? Zscout370 01:36, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Delete because wikipedia is not a how-to, and because we could probably get into serious legal trouble. DaveTheRed 02:48, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Are you an attorney at law? If so, on what grounds could Wikipedia "probably" get into serious legal trouble for the publication of text, so long as it is not a copyvio? --GRider\talk 18:45, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- No, as it happens I am not. Are you? I do know that wikipedia could be sued for this regardless of the legal basis of it. A case could be made that by printing this material we are aiding criminals in the act of commiting a crime. DaveTheRed 20:49, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Frivolous lawsuits without merit are frequently submitted to courts around the world. Religious organizations have also wrongfully filed suit against television networks, music labels and game companies citing them as the cause for such things as suicide, arson, and murder. If it hasn't happened already, it is inevitable that Wikipedia will be met with several frivolous lawsuits as well. There is nothing even remotely illegal about this article's content and fear should never be a factor for deletion. --GRider\talk 21:04, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- However, GRider, if a lawsuit was made against Wikipedia over this, it will have merit. There is a crime in the United States called Aiding and Abetting in a Criminal Act. We will be liable for this, since we are telling everyone the process you need to hack into Tivo. Hacking, as far as I know, is also illegal. I am not a law expert, but I seriously still think this article needs to be gone. Zscout370 21:18, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- While I appreciate your seriousness, I believe you may be strongly misunderstanding the term "hacking" in this context as well as the legalities of documenting how to modify personal electronics. This discussion is mostly moot anyhow because Wikipedia is not a how-to guide, which is why I voted to merge and redirect as appropriate. --GRider\talk 22:12, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- However, GRider, if a lawsuit was made against Wikipedia over this, it will have merit. There is a crime in the United States called Aiding and Abetting in a Criminal Act. We will be liable for this, since we are telling everyone the process you need to hack into Tivo. Hacking, as far as I know, is also illegal. I am not a law expert, but I seriously still think this article needs to be gone. Zscout370 21:18, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Frivolous lawsuits without merit are frequently submitted to courts around the world. Religious organizations have also wrongfully filed suit against television networks, music labels and game companies citing them as the cause for such things as suicide, arson, and murder. If it hasn't happened already, it is inevitable that Wikipedia will be met with several frivolous lawsuits as well. There is nothing even remotely illegal about this article's content and fear should never be a factor for deletion. --GRider\talk 21:04, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- No, as it happens I am not. Are you? I do know that wikipedia could be sued for this regardless of the legal basis of it. A case could be made that by printing this material we are aiding criminals in the act of commiting a crime. DaveTheRed 20:49, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Are you an attorney at law? If so, on what grounds could Wikipedia "probably" get into serious legal trouble for the publication of text, so long as it is not a copyvio? --GRider\talk 18:45, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Then if you think it is not legal to put on here, then lets Delete this page. Zscout370 03:05, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Delete or transwiki to Wikisource iff it is legal to do so. Alphax τεχ 03:39, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Delete or rewrite to be an encyclopaedia article on the history and social practice of Tivo hacking, and mvoe the different firmware versions into a general Tivo article. Justinc 21:57, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Comment. The armchair lawyering here is ridiculous. This article is not "new legal ground", nor is it controversial. This information is available from many different sources, none of which have been sued by TiVo Inc. While "hacking" is illegal, information about "hacking" is not illegal. But this article isn't even about the type of "hacking" you're undoubtedly picturing. I'm not voting here, just ranting. This isn't a great article, but we do need an article about the practice of TiVo hacking. Rhobite 00:52, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)
- I agree with you that a mention or two about Tivo Hacking should be in place, but we just need to be careful about what we place in here. Zscout370 00:55, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- No, it deserves more than a mention and we don't need to be very careful about disseminating evil hacking information. In this instance, I'm sorry to say, you misunderstand the law. There is no law against telling someone how to get a shell on their TiVo, or add a hard drive, or an ethernet card. The DMCA would be of limited use, since Wikipedia isn't distributing "circumvention tools" - only information. If you're still worried about potential claims against Wikipedia, please see DeCSS. Rhobite 02:10, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)
- I agree with you that a mention or two about Tivo Hacking should be in place, but we just need to be careful about what we place in here. Zscout370 00:55, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Regardless of the legal issue, this is not encyclopedic. Transwiki. Radiant_* 09:41, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)
- Delete, tivocruft. ComCat 01:56, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Weak Delete, There are probably encyclopedic things which can be said on the matter., but such things would probably fit comfortably into TiVo, at least for now. UserGoogol 18:41, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Move how-tos to Wikibooks. —Korath (Talk) 01:06, Apr 3, 2005 (UTC)
- This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.