Wiki143:Articles for deletion/Tankboy

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. MBisanz talk 08:54, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Tankboy

Template:La (delete) – (View log)

Concerns expressed over article tone and whether the subject, a very new TV series, is encyclopedic or notable. The article has already been CSDed, PRODed and finally speedily deleted. I've asked for its recreation so that it can at least go through a visible AfD process and some open debate. Bear in mind that those already concerned are worldwide and in many different time zones, so let's not act hastily here and remember some of us like to sleep during our local nighttimes.

The article has problems. These are fixable without deletion.

There are legitimate WP:COI concerns, but IMHO the creator, a new editor to Wikipedia, has behaved within the bounds of Good Faith and there is no reason to delete on that basis. Let's all be welcoming here and help them to learn how things operate before jumping down their throat.

The subject may not be notable to the project's standards. I have no opinion on this at this time and could be convinced either way. I welcome discussion of this, as it seems to be the only real bar to this article being added. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:13, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

  • Comment -- Andy has identified the main issues. It seems early days for the programme, so is it necessary to delete the page now and wait for its re-creation at a later date, when notability is clearer? Or can it be allowed to remain to be 'improved upon'... EdJogg (talk) 13:34, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
The programme exists, has been broadcast and appears to be at a state where it's reasonable to discuss it. My only concern here is whether the audience exposed to it meets some criterion (defined where?) that distinguishes "notable broadcast TV" from "non-notable public-access late-night cable". As a non TV viewer, I don't know where that level rests. My worry is that fixable concerns about writing style have turned into an unwarranted impression of it as being less deserving than it ought to be (I think I was guilty of that myself). Andy Dingley (talk) 13:40, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete - The article is poorly written from the point of view of being an encyclopedia article (I tagged it with Template:Tl). The references provided are wanting not independent of the subject. I am not able to find any articles written about the show. However, based on the web site, it has enjoyed sufficient success to start filming a second season. Is notable? At this point, it doesn't meet the requirements for notability, but I can be persuaded otherwise by some reliable sources writing about the show. -- Whpq (talk) 13:56, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment 2 - If the outcome of this process is still 'delete', may I suggest that the content be moved to a user subpage to allow further work while the remaining issues are addressed? EdJogg (talk) 14:54, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment 3 - Please note, everyone seems to assume that I am Charles Knight, who created the Tankboy series. But I am not. While I do also work in the film industry (semi-retired now), I know about Tankboy and his crew and they are a very cool bunch of lads. They are not into self glorification, self promotion or any of the typical western "I love myself" bullshit. Tankboy himself really does own military vehicles, machine guns and cannons and he owns them just because he loves military stuff. Apart from his TV show, he and his vehicles have appeared on many other TV shows in New Zealand (MTV and C4 in particular) and he has helped out on many fund raiser parades and live shows raising money for kids in need.

I worked under him once (eg he was my boss) when I worked on Power Rangers for a season and the guy is very passionate about film making and is one of the most experienced film makers in our country (New Zealand).

The Tankboy show is a very unique show in that it is the first reality show in the world ever, where the people in it, not only do their own stunts, but they set up their own pyrotechnics and use real military firearms and nothing is rehearsed. Tankboy actually shoots the show on his days off from his other film making commitments. I have asked his PA for more information and rights to use photos etc and its all coming. I did email the wiki commons with an email I received from them allowing me to use the pics but the photos seem to have been deleted anyway.

They are sending me the whole EPK for the show with hundreds of pics and more information.

I would like the chance to wikify it further and make it work for everyone. I also know once its up that others who know about the show will help improve it. Tankboy has a big following down in New Zealand and also strangely in Russia. And they have informed me that the show is going to be released in the US soon but can't say on which channel or when it will air.

I also know I am not a great writer, but that doen't stop anyone on wiki from jumping on and reformating the information to suit right?

If I could at least have 6 weeks to get it together and then if the wiki writers still think it sucks - delete away.

Cooltv (talk) 03:18, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

  • Comment 4

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1379033/ this will give you a bit of info about they guy (Tankboy himself). I also know he is working with Rob Tapart and Sam Raimi, producing the new series "Spartacus" for Starz. Cooltv (talk) 03:40, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

  • Delete. When I first looked at this while it had the PROD tag, I couldn't tell if it were self-promotion (either directly or indirectly) or not, and decided that in light of a few other things, that issue was irrelevant (and on my user page I state that I consider COI a disqualifying situation). It's clear that it's all in good faith, but it's already in desperate need of a rewrite per WP:MOS - it's written more in the form of a promotional blurb in some fan magazine (see Fanboy#Cast, which emphasizes the characters and de-emphasizes the actual actors). The program is described in promotional tone, without any citations from a reliable source that is independent of the production or distributor (I had to delete a piece of Myspace.com spamlinking, but the link was simply hyping a piece of puffery). The article asserts (without specifics) "worldwide distribution" but shows no evidence of third party coverage supporting that assertion. It doesn't even indicate whether the program is being syndicated or if a national broadcast network is airing it (if so, where? If so, what is the response - critical or viewership?) We have nothing to indicate that it's even made it to air yet. Major suggestion: userfy the article (move to userspace) so writing can be upgraded, the proper structure be put in place, evidence of independent media coverage be found... and the program gains traction in the marketplace. Then... and only then... should there be an article about this series in article space. B.Wind (talk) 04:40, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Userify I've no problem with this article being part of Wikipedia, but it clearly had problems and needs work. Userifying it, fixing it and then moving it back afterwards would give time for this. Othwerwise it's likely to see some, but not enough, improvement and rapidly find itself tagged or AfDed again. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:09, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions. -- Fabrictramp | talk to me 19:17, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
  • If you don't like the current attempts at getting Tankboy wikified, rather than delete it could someone move it to my user space as mentioned above. I'm not sure how this is done, yet (but I will someday soon). I will in future create all new pages in user space first as recommended (forgive me as I did not know the process). I have been updating some other pages (also as recommended) so I'm starting to get the hang of things. Thanks for everyones help and advice so far.

Cooltv (talk) 19:57, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

  • Tankboy Article Revamped - I have wikified the article, both in terms of tone, layout and additional ref links. I had pictures and their logo officially uploaded by the copy write owners Tankboy Global. In the wrong section at this time but I will make sure it is rectified on Monday. I believe I have sufficiently covered all areas that were grounds for deletion. I have other articles that I want to add to that exist on wikipedia, so hopefully I can go about that now, although as more information come to hand I will update this one. But I know, once our summer holidays are over and people down this part of the world return home that others will contribute, expanding on what I have started.

Cooltv (talk) 21:34, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Stifle (talk) 13:25, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
  • While there are enough delete !votes to close this discussion as a delete, I would like to relist for a further discussion since the article has been significantly changed during the AFD. Note that an admin may close it at any time; it does not necessarily have to wait a further five days. Stifle (talk) 13:26, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment - The revamped article has more references, but I still don't see the significant coverage about the show that would put it above the notability bar. My opinion still remains as deletion. -- Whpq (talk) 13:36, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete - I tried cleaning up the article as well, but I think it simply doesn't meet notability guidelines. It may be recreated when it becomes notable.  LinguistAtLarge • Msg  15:19, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep It's notable in that it is the first of a new genre, Destruction TV. The show is so extreme that a lot of TV channels are too scared to air it, afraid of possible lawsuits from copycat acts by teenagers. These guys really blow the f*&k out of things. Its my favorite TV show and I don't even fit the shows demographic audience (male teenagers). Cooltv (talk) 03:15, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
    • Comment -- unfortunately, that claim for notability can only be made after other programmes have been made in the same form, to create the 'genre'. At present, the most you can say is that it doesn't have a close match with any existing genre -- but even then it is almost certainly a crossover between two or more well-established genres, isn't it? There still aren't the references to support its notability claims, as the IMDB entry is almost empty (and who can create these, anyway?) and none of the others counts as a reliable source for supporting notability claims. If to be deleted, the page should be moved to user space until the notability can be addressed. EdJogg (talk) 12:10, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
Some clarification might be useful. It's not "notable" (in WP's sense) as the first of a new genre. It couldn't possibly be, by its definition. It might be "interesting" as such, a non-WP commentator might describe that as "notable", but this is different from the WP:N sense we need here. So if the article subject is notable, that has to be through WP:N (which I think can be met). Demonstrate significant coverage of this program through mention in multiple, independent reliable sources.
Then add good, interesting, and encyclopedic text to the article to make it a good one. So far I'm still seeing too much "crazy! chick!!" and not enough "Tankboy's BMP weighs 99tons. When thoroughly crushed, a car finishes up around 12" thick. Engines are removed first to give a thinner final pancake, and there's a starter ramp at the back (or we use Rover SD1s) because BMP ground clearance isn't enough to take a car in one bite from the ground". Andy Dingley (talk) 12:54, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarification. Based on that though, most of the New Zealand TV shows listed on wikipedia would not comply and should be deleted. None of the TV shows made by South Pacific Pictures are at all notable and only two movies they have ever made are notable, "Once Were Warriors" and "Whale Rider". Yet "Siones Wedding", a failure of a film is listed? Having worked for the company for 15 years, I am pretty knowledgeable on their shows. So this is very confusing. I originally wrote the Tankboy article from a fans point of view (mine), which turned out to be wrong, so I have looked at many other wiki articles and rewrote it more encyclopedic, copying the formatting style of other articles. Also, I thought I had removed all the "crazy chick" like bits. I can write the tank crushing type stuff, but then is this not more fan like type information as I was originally doing (that I thought was wrong)? Interestingly, on that topic, what is different about these guys is that they do not remove the engines from the cars they crush, they drive the cars around and jump out of them just before the tank (BMP1) runs them over, no ramps, no rehearsals. They even drag cars (with someone in them still trying to drive away), and then pulverize them or blow them up etc. No ramps, no safety gear, no rehearsals and quite often in front of a live audience! And not just cars, they drive off and buy caravans and they just drive right through them, no mods, no weakening of the structure. They use the BMP because it has the angular front and it just glides over anything and as it goes over, its weight just crushes. They have built canons and fired logs through cars, they built a flame thrower and then put one of the crew in a burn suit and chased them with the flame thrower - I laughed so much I had sore ribs the next day. MTV in New Zealand has now played a selection of the series (although I saw more in Russia when I was there a few weeks ago), so I record the episodes off air and play back the crushing sequences, frame by frame. Just amazing. Maybe Tankboy is notable as a New Zealand show on Wikipedia? Ok - back on topic. If you feel you have to delete the Tankboy item, then do so. It was my first attempt at a wiki article and they seemed the easiest for me as their office is in the same studio complex as I am currently working, so I figured its easy to get info from them anytime. I have been updating a number of NZ actor and TV show items on wiki and there are more that I intend to update. I was planning on doing an article on Spartacus (the new TV show for Starz) but am a little hesitant as it will probably meet the same demise. Maybe someone else could start one on Spartacus and I can add to it - any takers? I am an old sound recordist who has worked on many New Zealand TV shows and I know a lot about them. So I thought it would be good to put this knowledge to good use somewhere and wikipedia seemed like the right place. Maybe I am too old? Cooltv (talk) 22:04, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment - providing google search results isn't helpful. Can you point out which of those results represent reliable sources? -- Whpq (talk) 22:52, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
Well, if it is required that I explictly show the specific examples toward notability that I came accross, I will be happy to do so. I need to head out to an outside project at the moment, so will comply in about 5 hours. Thank you, Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 23:14, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
I apologize for my first impression after doing a Google search. Apparently there is a band called "Tankboy" and also a bloger by that name. Their news pervades the web. There are other links, but none are much more than trivial mentions. The series has a devout fanbase, but apparently has not gotten decent press coverage. Pity. Anyone able to search New Zealand sources? I withdraw my keep. Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 04:21, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
I found the best way to find info on them was to google "Tankboy TV" and "New Zealand" or "Tankboy" and "New Zealand", with the Tankboy TV search giving the best results. They are on IMDB which is a reliable source. Unfortunately most press media in NZ is still on paper. While some press here does get on the web, it does not stay up long. The internet is not quite as big here as in most other western countries, a large percentage of our rural populations still have to access the internet via a dial up modem as their only option. Cooltv Cooltv (talk) 20:21, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
About IMDb (see: Wikipedia:Citing IMDb)... it is generally accepted reliable for WP:Verification of certain informations on released films and shows, but does not in and of itself confer any notability. I might suggest that working through a local library, you may be able to find such reviews or articles. Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 08:56, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Note to closing Admin: If the consensus is for a delete, I ask that the article be userfied to a workspace of author User:Cooltv, as suggested by User:Andy Dingley above so that it may continue to be improved. Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 08:56, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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