Wiki143:Articles for deletion/Standards of measure in the Jemdet Nasr

This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was Delete --Allen3 ^talk 12:57, August 13, 2005 (UTC)

Standards of measure in the Jemdet Nasr

• Keep, Valuable, well researched, well cited, interesting, informative. Rktect 7:25, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

updated and under mediation

Same reason as for Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Standards of measure in the Copper Age above. In this case, various values are filled in. But the entire concept of a table with exact 1/100 mm units is really meaningless. The subject is already covered, as mentioned. Egil 08:52, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

• Delete, as above. Proto t c 09:21, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

rktect8/6/05 Perhaps user Egil only sees what he wants to see

This is the table he is refering to, cites are now on the page

The idea is to see where and when standards are changed or converted

by comparison between more specific times and places than "Mesopotamia" or "Egypt"

which are civilizations that span several millenia each

Table of Unit Comparisons

Jemdet Nasr Units	Dilmun	Elam	Sumer	Akad	Mycenian	Egypt	Notes
Dilmun fingers	šu 15	?	?	?	?	?
Elamite fingers	?	šusi 16.67	?	?	?	?
Sumerian fingers	?	?	shusi 17.67	?	?	?
Akkadian fingers	?	?	?	sheshi 20	?	?
Egyptian fingers	?	?	?	?	?	db 18.75
Mycenean fingers	?	?	?	?	?	daktylos 19.275
thumbs	18	20	21.2	uban 24	?	mtr 22.5	?	mtr = precise
condylos	30	33.3	35.3	40	37.5	38.55
palms	60	66.67	70.67	shepsi 80	?	ssp 75	?
hands	qat 75	83.33	88.33	100	?	drt 93.75	?
fists	90	100	106	120	?	amm 112.5	?
spans	šu-dù-a 150	zipaþ 166.67	zapaþ šu.bad 176.67	200	?	spd 187.5	?
feet	?	?	?	300	?	bw 300	?	bw = 1 ft
remen	?	?	?	353.53	?	rmn 375	?
small cubits	?	?	?	500	?	mh 450	?
large cubits	?	?	?	nibw 600	?	mh 525	?	ni bw = 2 ft
double remen	?	?	?	707	?	rmn750

Rktect 6:03, 5 August 2005 (EST)

Looking at unit standards of measure comparatively by cultures

makes it much easier to see who shared measures with whom.

Egil says the subject is already covered but that is false

Associating units with cultures makes it appear that every time a new culture arises

it reinvents the wheel and starts over again from scratch with new standards of measure

that have nothing in common with those that went before.

That is clearly not the case as measures are used to define property and people

tend not to like strangers coming around and messing with what's theirs.

The important thing about this period are the letters documenting the desire

to establish common standards between countries which have been placed on

the discussion page where anybody can read them.

In this case in particular I would point out this is a work in progress

since it takes time both to do the data entry and translate the cites

from the original languages.

The standards of the Jemdet Nasr are both similar to and different from

copper age or iron age or medieval standards. In many cases they are better

documented by weights than by land units because this is the period when

the Sumerians first became heavily engaged in trade with Melluha, Makkan,

Dilmun and Egypt and first needed agreed upon international standards

of weights and measures.

Its the period in which the first archaeological and written evidence

of standards appears and in many cases the values of goods and services

are directly related to their standards of measure.

Traders moved overland, up rivers and along coasts which they surveyed.

Rivers like the Indus, Tigris, Euphrates and Nile connected with the Erythrian Sea

In the case of the Nile by means of overland portages and eventually a canal

As the Sumerian and Hurrian traders moved into Syrio-Anatolia well in advance of

any conquering armies they carried with them standards of measure for

commerce and agriculture.

These Sumerian units are not always already well established in the popular literature

Sometimes they are found in obscure technical publications written in dead languages

copper and iron age units are easier to document and have much more accessible web sources

so only now are they begining to emerge on line as citable primary sources.

As to giving their values to the nearest whole mm rather than to several

decimals of mm, Sumerian standards are not precise to decimal mm

or variant to 10's of mm and generally best established to +/- 1 mm per foot.

For those cultures for whom there is a written contemporary primary reference

to sharing a standard (as with the rod of Gudea) which was cited on the

discussion page for ancient weights and measures, there are long term

investigations of the units involved and the results

are now considered basic historical fact.

In the past many people have applied an ethnocentric perspective

to "their measures" stating that they are "Anglo Saxon", "German",

"Danish" French or "English" when they actually have much longer

histories that have been explored in the literature.

Being able to see the connection broken down by conventional archaeological

period rather than simply lumped to gether as ancient makes the similarities

and differances much clearer

The objection that these studies are original research is also invalid

as their original sources have been cited on the discussion page and

in some cases transcriptions of the original ancient language with

translations given in English

• Delete as per all the other articles in this series. Nandesuka 17:27, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Rktect's claim notwithstanding, there are no sources cited on the discussion page for this article. Nandesuka 19:07, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

• Delete unless it's [cleaned up beforehand.] Citations, better introduction, wiki format, etc. Please note: Citations do not go on a talk page or on some other page the user has to click to find, they go on the bottom of the page you have created. Xaa 23:59, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
• Delete as for all the other articles in this series. Ken 13:05, August 8, 2005 (UTC)

• Delete, beyond salvage. Gene Nygaard 15:38, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.