Wiki143:Articles for deletion/Periodic table (Chinese)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was keep. I've discounted a few votes based on mistaken reasons (for example, CSD A2) or which had no reasons at all. BTW, "not interesting" is not a reason to delete, just as "interesting" is not a reason to keep - both of those qualifications are extremely subjective. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 21:37, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Periodic table (Chinese)

This is article total junk. The periodic table in chinese?!? We can't have articles about how everything looks in diffrent languages, especialy when there isn't much diffrence. I suppose if we keep this we should have the periodic table in German, Spanish, Hebrew, Arabic and every other language too. And if we start making articles about how things look in Chinese then this would be the tip of the iceberg. Come on. This version of wikipedia is in English. This article should go on the chinese wikipedia. (and probably already is.) Tobyk777 00:11, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

  • Transwiki if it's not there, otherwise Delete. Danny Lilithborne 00:59, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Agree with Danny. TrianaC 01:09, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. It's a well written article, aimed at the english reader; it's interesting (at least, I found it so). The chinese PT is unique in using single characters for elements, setting it apart fron the EN, DE, ES, HE, AR and every other language too. Wikipedia is big enough for this sort of thing, if it is done well. --Tagishsimon (talk)
Comment: If Wikipedia had articles on how anything looks in Chinese, we'd melt their servers. The bit about the fact that they use single characters is interesting, but I don't think the periodic table in itself holds any attraction for the average bored reader. If they are looking for the periodic table, in Chinese, they must be able to read Chinese, and hence they are better off at the Chinese Wikipedia, where the information is, no doubt, more complete. Perhaps merge the historical information with Science and technology in China, which, on another note, is an article that could do with some work. TrianaC 01:19, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak Keep/Conditional Keep "Well-written" and "interesting" and "wikipedia is big enough" are not really relevant arguments for an afd discussion, but there seems to be a marginal degree of notability here if it indeed is the only modern periodic table to not use the standard symbols Bwithh 01:16, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep I originally voted delete, but now that I've chewed on it for a while, it really is pretty interesting (read:notable) how they represent chemical symbols in Chinese characters. No, this doesn't mean we have to have an article for everything translated into Chinese, because this translation is particularly difficult. AdamBiswanger1 01:42, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge as per riana. If it was a pure periodic table I would have voted for delete, but as it holds mild interest because of the use of characters instead of two letter abbrevations it should be kept. I don't think it deserves its own page however. --Viridae 01:24, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Encyclopedic and of interest to the English reader. Tevildo 01:26, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy delete per CSD:A2. --Coredesat 02:01, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
    Wow, is the article really in Chinese? --Zoz (t) 11:36, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep, The only issue here is that there isn't a word for "chinese element symbols". If there were a word that expressed that idea in English nobody would take issue with having an article under that name. Worf hypothesis in action! Ltbarcly 02:21, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge per Riana and Viridae. The Chinese table need not be duplicated here.--Jusjih 02:54, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Q Is this good enough for Wikisource? ~ trialsanderrors 02:59, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. This article is not useful to English-speaking people who don't know Chinese. --Metropolitan90 03:05, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. Inappropriate for English Wikipedia. Peyna 03:09, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • The supporters of this article recognize that it is about a translation, but they also contend that the translation is valuable in itself. In essence, it is not a translation, but an article about the translation and the difficulties arising from it. This does not mean that we need articles for every language, because most are phonetic, and therefore elements are simple to represent. AdamBiswanger1 03:43, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • In response, I would echo what User:Motor says below. Peyna 11:37, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Not a bad idea, but I think the article is just too long to merge. Plus, I can't see whittling it down to an appropriate length. AdamBiswanger1 17:48, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment. After reviewing Periodic table, I think I'll have to agree about the merge, plus having 3 images would overwhelm that article. However, given that the average EN Wikipedia reader will get little benefit from seeing the table in Chinese, perhaps it could be adequately covered in a section in Periodic table and we could just do away with the images, or provide links to them for the curious? I'll withdraw my "vote", but leave this comment in place for consideration. Peyna 14:04, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep I think this article makes a very interesting read and is a valuable contribution to Wikipedia Deyyaz [ Talk | Contribs ] 03:59, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. I would have to disagree with Metropolitan90 and Peyna. This does seem useful to a native English speaker, even one who does not understand the slightest bit of Chinese. The entire article is written in English, only the picture of the periodic table itself has any Chinese in it. This also seems to be notable because of its explanation of the fact that it is the only modern periodic table that does not use letter abbreviations. --Danielrocks123 talk contribs 04:24, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Interesting and informative article that could use a bit of cleanup. In particular, the charts need reworking so that the English abbreviation of the element names doesn't overlap with the Chinese. Exploding Boy 05:48, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep, of encyclopedic interest. I could work on it a bit. -- Миборовский 05:50, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge and cut down to fit in periodic table, only of passing interest. Jammo (SM247) 05:52, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep even if within another article. Agree on notability as per Danielrocks123. ChaChaFut 05:57, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete or merge per nom MarineCorps 06:07, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep re the merge option, over at Periodic Table there is already a whole host of linked esoteric versions of the periodic table, of which this is just one. As a non-chemist, I found this one more interesting and useful than some of the others, such as the Periodic table (large version) and the contrasting Periodic table (big), even though they were all in English. --DaveG12345 06:38, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, Wikipedia is not a translation service. The information about the problems of depicting the periodic table into this language might be interesting enough... but if they are, they belong on the periodic table article in a section on the basics of how it is translated into other languages. The specifics, namely, the actual periodic table in another language belongs on the relevant language's Wikipedia... where it can be verified by editors with the requisite language skills and knowledge. - Motor (talk) 11:05, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. We have Chinese measure words, lots of articles on the Chinese language. It is far from a mere transwiki, or a translation. Rather it is to explain the concept of the Chinese language when applied to the sciences. I am absolutely horrified by this bad faith nomination. Elle vécut heureuse à jamais (Be eudaimonic!) 11:33, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • merge as rania - Che Nuevara: Join the Revolution 11:41, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • delete MrDolomite 14:16, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - Maybe create a single article regarding periodic table in foreign languages? We certainly don't need dozens of different articles describing the issues for each language's periodic table. Wickethewok 14:28, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, as inappropriate for the English Wikipedia. Keeping the article would set precedent and make deletions of similar articles more difficult. It's the "we have that, so why delete this" argument. Also, other people will want to add similar articles about their native/second/pet language. -- Kjkolb 14:31, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment This is a problem that has been addressed by a number of editors, but many, including myself, have asserted in above comments that that is simply not true. If you wish to vote oppose, please do so, but always address arguments against yours. That way, your opinion is much more effective. AdamBiswanger1 17:52, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
      • Comment: I don't see it addressed. Which comments are you referring to? -- Kjkolb 20:22, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
        • Comment (In response to your idea that keeping this article would "set a precedent" allowing many articles of translations.) "This does not mean that we need articles for every language, because most are phonetic, and therefore elements are simple to represent." AdamBiswanger1 22:07, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
          • Comment: that only addresses more articles on periodic tables. A lot of things are likely to be difficult to translate, such as Macbeth into Navajo or the translation of rhyming poetry into an unrelated language while keeping the rhymes. Also, some editors don't make those kinds of distinctions. They will just say that the Chinese periodic table exists, so one in their language should exist. They may leave out the part about the Chinese periodic table being unusual through ignorance or to help their case. Frequently, the fact that there was a special circumstance in keeping an apparently similar article is not mentioned until it is too late to influence the outcome of the nomination. -- Kjkolb 05:30, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
            • Comment': Logical fallacy. Your example of Najavo is using the concept of idioms and vocabulary, which is distinctly different. Poetry often stays in one culture: the elements are universal. Elle vécut heureuse à jamais (Be eudaimonic!) 06:17, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
              • Comment: if I understand you correctly, you're saying that the situations are different. However, that is irrelevant. They only have to be similar enough in people's minds to influence their decision on an AfD nomination. -- Kjkolb 06:26, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
              • Comment Well, you have to remember that if a an article about a translation is notable, it's notable. It doesn't matter if there are 10 or 10,000. AdamBiswanger1 21:59, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
                • Comment: I don't think that it is notable. The Rosetta Stone definitely, but not the Chinese periodic table. I think that we have covered everything and just simply disagree. I'm removing this page from my watchlist, so I probably won't notice other comments. -- Kjkolb 04:24, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Interesting article discussing the difficulties in representing the periodic table in Chinese characters. This isn't just a Chinese periodic table copied and pasted into the English Wikipedia, but an article about the Chinese periodic table and the way it's put together. TomTheHand 14:40, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. It is not a "Chinese translation", but an illustration of what is genuinely different about the Chinese version. As such it has merit. If it were simply "Here is the periodic table in Chinese" it would be an obvious deletion candidate, but this is written as an encyclopaedic article about the Chinese table. Fiddle Faddle 15:11, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep, but move to something like Names of the elements in Chinese. The existing title suggests that the periodic table is different in China; and at any rate the article is not about the periodic table per se, but about the way the elements are represented in Sinograms. Smerdis of Tlön
  • Delete or transwiki to wikisource.--Peta 16:09, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Article isn't in Chinese, so sending it to the Chinese wiki would be useless (and I'm sure they have it already). This article is more about the history/creation of the Chinese table, and in that has interest even in the English wiki. Should be moved to a new name though. -Goldom ‽‽‽ ⁂ 16:12, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Move per Ihcoyc/Smerdis of Tlön. The "periodic table in Chinese" was not difficult to creat, because it is the same in any language. This is simply about names/abbreviations for elements. JPD (talk) 16:22, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep - A good history of science type article. Only the table itself is in Chinese, the article is in English. Perhaps a move to Chinese Periodic table or Periodic table in China. savidan(talk) (e@) 17:29, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep per Fiddle Faddle. it's at the intersection of Chemistry and Linguistics and is much more valuable if viewed as a lingusitics article than a chemistry one. hateless 18:23, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  1. Keep. Interesting article discussing the difficulties in representing the periodic table in Chinese characters. This isn't just a Chinese periodic table copied and pasted into the English Wikipedia, but an article about the Chinese periodic table and the way it's put together. TomTheHand 14:40, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. It is not just a Chinese language article about the Periodic Table, but rather, an article showing what is different about the Chinese version and its history ( how it came about.) Advanced 19:40, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - Not English (at least the table.) --Kungfu Adam (talk) 19:55, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Don't seem to get the logic? We should delete everything that explains a foreign language concept then? It's not merely a translation, as I said. The article on Chinese measure words is not merely a list of translations such as the English "3 sheets of paper" into Chinese. Elle vécut heureuse à jamais (Be eudaimonic!) 20:15, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep per above. Useful article about the translation. –ArmadniGeneral (talk • contribs) 20:18, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep probably not the most interesting or relevant article but still an enjoyable read. Pascal.Tesson 21:58, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Provides information about how it is different from the English periodic table. Also helps fight systematic bias. Armedblowfish (talk|mail|contribs) 22:31, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Conditional Keep 23 June 2006 23:11 Ste4k wrote: The sources do not visually match themeselves nor the article, and they are unlikely to match in the future. The article's images only show English characters. Technically if not deleted, move toWP:IFD for WP:CSD#I2. Thanks.
  • Delete everything there — the topic (problems of writing the periodic table in Chinese) may be encyclopedic, but the tables themselves must go. If they're deleted, and the article is sourced, and still makes sense, then it might be moved. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 00:17, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep This is an English-language article about the periodic table. It displays the periodic table in Chinese as a visual. It belongs in the English Wikipedia. Fg2 01:03, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

*Merge - into Science and technology in China per Riana and Viridae. Save the useful content. Doc Tropics 01:51, 24 June 2006 (UTC) Changing my 'vote'. please see below. Doc Tropics 22:56, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

  • Keep - After more reading and some extra thought for the opinions expressed here I have to change from Merge to Keep. There's enough info worth saving and the article can apparently stand on its own. Doc Tropics 22:56, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. The table itself in Chinese is not very useful (and probably interwikied from ours already). The way new characters are/were created for the periodic table is very notable (as it is otherwise extremely rare nowadays). Perhaps Names of chemical elements in Chinese is a better place for that information, though. Kusma (討論) 03:01, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. I have been following this discussion with interest. I think it is notable and an interesting additional piece of knowledge for someone who reads the main article on the periodic table and moves here. Chinese is a special case. We are not going to see lots of artciles on different labguages. However I would like to see the tables as they are now deleted and replaced by inclusion of the images. This way the display does not depend on the browser. --Bduke 03:05, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Strong support of the suggestion in this vote by Bduke. I cannot see the symbols because I am lacking the appropriate language pack. Another editor said they were in english??? Fantastic idea, Bduke. Viridae 03:19, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Oppose this proposal: for one you can't copy and paste individual characters for an image, nor can they be modified. Keeping it as Chinese text is important because it carries over the individual information that makes up the character. If one lacks the language pack they can alternatively use the images, but it's not like we should delete the article on the Indian language because people lack support for Indic text. Elle vécut heureuse à jamais (Be eudaimonic!) 03:33, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
      • What if each symbol was an image as suggested, but in the image description (on its image page) the text form of the symbol was there? Or the textual form of the symbol was underneath each image in the tabel. It strikes me that the Chinese periodic tble could probobly be found elsewhere, so the wikipedia version should be for interest/encyclopedic sake to illustrate the text. Not so people can use the symbols. Viridae 06:29, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
        • Rather redundant if you ask me. I think we should use the image version as a fallback. People unable to view Chinese characters can just click on the link. After all, they are everywhere on the English Wikipedia - in the articles documenting the Chinese language, in the article Singapore, etc. Elle vécut heureuse à jamais (Be eudaimonic!) 06:39, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep, it shows how a Chinese periodic table is different from the English one.ac Topic is of encyclopedic value. Everything is in English except the table in Chinese. Article shows interest to readers as well. --Terence Ong (Chat | Contribs) 03:39, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep, including the table. Even though I've forgotten all the kanji I ever knew (two semesters of conversational Japanese), it's interesting to see the similarities in related elements, like gasses and metals. (But then I think the English periodic table is cool too.) --Jamoche 04:55, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Transwiki per nom if it isn't on the Chinese Wikipedia...it's not really that large an article in terms of writing and would serve Asian Wikipedians a lot more than those from other English-speaking origins. Which basically means it shouldn't be here. Nobleeagle (Talk) 08:27, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Logical fallacy. Serving Asian Wikipedians more than it does with "English-speaking origins" not only constitutes some blatant racialism (are you saying that they can't speak English natively?), you've also made a leap of logic by assuming that it can't be valuable here as well. After all, how many people can an article about a music album serve? And yet it exists! Wikipedia has an extremely large audience, and in fact its audience for this article is not confined because it has Chinese characters. I am sure chemists of any language origin may be interested to find out how these elements are represented, just out of curiosity. Elle vécut heureuse à jamais (Be eudaimonic!) 17:24, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete This article just explains how the Chinese chart is written in Chinese, Ta-daaaah!! Medico80 09:30, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
  • I move to strike out this vote because it doesn't take into account all the remarks so far, and in fact uses a logical fallacy. It "just explains" doesn't suddenly lead to a criteria for deletion. Elle vécut heureuse à jamais (Be eudaimonic!) 17:24, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Sorry, but I just didn't feel like spending many diplomatic words on why this article is absolutely useless and contains no nontrivial information. What language is the Russian chart of elements written in, you think? Medico80 22:00, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Comment If you had read the article, you'd know. Your comment provides more evidence that the article has value IMO. --DaveG12345 03:58, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment I am rather dismayed by the several comments here calling for a deletion/speedy deletion based on this article being not written in English. It most clearly is, and it makes me wonder whether some of the users even looked at the page before deciding. This isn't all the delete comments, there are several with valid points, but this article is no more "non-english" than any article we have about other languages that include any words/symbols. -Goldom ‽‽‽ ⁂ 12:50, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment. The order and arrangement of the elements in the Chinese periodic table is the same as that in any other language. The only difference is that they use different symbols for the elements rather than the element abbreviations used in Roman characters. And seeing what those symbols are doesn't help me too much as an English-language user of the English Wikipedia, since I can't read Chinese. Maybe a very slight merge into Periodic table would be appropriate to incorporate the following sentence: "All languages use the same Roman-alphabet symbols for the elements except for Chinese." Metropolitan90 19:18, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
      Are you trying to say that some people don't make informed decisions? That's ridiculous. AdamBiswanger1 21:54, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
      • Comment. You can't read Chinese, but you can still see the different representations of it. It is not merely "different symbols", as if you see in the Chinese character article it is not merely just allocating a different symbol for each character - many elements share many of the same radicals with other elements, ie. for properties such as solid, gas or liquid, or even energy level. Elle vécut heureuse à jamais (Be eudaimonic!) 19:36, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
  • comment - I'd like to re-emphasize that this article is not just about the Chinese periodic table, but about the process and challenges of translating it. I really think this article contains interesting and useful information that is worth saving. Doc Tropics 22:06, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Just a thought. Is this article about the periodic table, or the elements. AdamBiswanger1 22:30, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. The article is not a translation, it's about the translation. Notability: "Chinese is the only language that uses characters [...] for elements"; "characters specially-invented for the periodic table". --Zoz (t) 11:36, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge Reading through the votes here, I think the issue is not with the information, but with the format. The first part of the article is interesting information, and should probably be in either periodic table or Science and technology in China, like riana suggested. The information in the table (the chinese character used for each element) is good information, but it is also true that Wikipedia is not a translation service. However, what about the Wiktionary? That sort of information should be in their listings, and I know that at least some of it is already. However, the format of the table isn't really useful to an English speaker. Think in terms of usage: an English speaker might run across an element written in Chinese, and want to know what it is in English. Or, the reverse: they may simply want to know what the Chinese character is for an element. In either case, looking at that table probably isn't going to help them, unless they also happen to know the atomic number of the element they want to look up. If they want to figure this information out, they're going to search for the element or the character on the Wikipedia, or hopefully the Wiktionary. The only use I see for the table is if they have a image of the character (rather than text they can copy and paste), don't know how to type it, and feel like looking through rows and rows of similar characters for an exact match. So, save the information, scrap the table. -- Rablari Dash 07:56, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Hmm? I know most of the atomic numbers of the elements. I suspect anyone who studies chemistry after a while would. Elle vécut heureuse à jamais (Be eudaimonic!) 16:39, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
  • It's interesting to have the table there. It adds significantly to the feeling of completeness to the article from an aesthetic standpoint. Furthermore, I realize that Wikipedia is not a translation service, but the table is not hurting anything. This is a case where a little bit of leniency in terms of policy application is necessary. From a perfectly legalistic standpoint, should we get rid of the table? yes. But what is best for Wikipedia? Keep it. Now as far as your proposal to merge, I simply cannot imagine this large, cumbersome article fitting into Periodic table. Perhaps, though, what we could do is write a blurb about translations of elements into Chinese and other languages and have one of these:

Script error: No such module "Labelled list hatnote".. AdamBiswanger1 23:18, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

  • Keep. At this point, new opinions won't matter much. But I have recently voted to delete some articles about translation, and I think this falls on the right side of the line. This article is about the translation, and it's saying something interesting. Mangojuicetalk 05:16, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak Keep. It is interesting reading in my opinion (about unicode, the chinese language/coulture, and also as reference), but it might also be considered as fancruft if it were kept in the English wikipedia. Then again, almost anything can be considered as fancruft. -- Bisqwit 14:26, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
  • WOO! PERIODIC TABLE!!! YEA!!!! AdamBiswanger1 14:32, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Most modern psychologists agree that users who place more than one exclamation in a sentence probably need therapy :) --Doc Tropics 15:59, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Redirect and Merge a few sentances into Periodic table of elements. Wikibout-Talk to me! 20:25, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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