Wiki143:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish communists

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the nomination was delete. Mailer Diablo 04:17, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

List of Jewish communists

This entry, stated by indefinitely banned trouble-maker Script error: No such module "user"., is inherently problematic. The page will likely attract anti-Semitic and neo-Nazi POV-pushers, who argue that there is some sort of a connection between Communism and Judaism. Moreover, classifying who is a Jew is often a difficult judgment call outside the competence of Wikipedia editors. For example, Karl Marx, who is listed on the page, is a paradigmatic example of the difficulty of determining who is a Jew. Marx’s family converted to Lutheranism; and, later in life, Marx, like many communists, rejected organized religion. Strong delete. 172 | Talk 04:55, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete contains all of seven people, most of whom are better described as "of Jewish ancestry" rather than simply "Jewish". There's no corresponding List of Christian communists, List of atheist communists (for consistency, would that be coextensive with List of communists?), etc. - nor is there a need for them. Opabinia regalis 05:13, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
    • Note - the list was a stub, indeed, so I added a few very influential: Rosa Luxemburg, Marek Edelman, Ernest Mandel, Ygael Gluckstein, Jesus Christ (more will follow). It is still a stub, but that is no reason to delete it, is it? ActiveSelective 06:53, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
      • Active: Could you explain to the peanut gallery exactly how you arrived at the conclusion that Jesus Christ belongs on the List of Jewish communists? Since when does Christianity = Communism? I must be missing something, right? Hmm, it must have been the day I missed that liberation theology lecture on "Kermit the Frog is a communist" ("frogs of the world unite -- before you croak!") and thus he is a very vulnerable "Jewish" frog. IZAK 10:32, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
        • First, Christ isn't communist in my perception. Nevertheless, (1) the phrase that "Christ was the first communist" is quite a common - whether I like it or not. (2) Liberation theology is indeed a good argument for adding the name (with some reserve) (3) The term 'communism' is not only used for modern-day Communism since Karl Marx. For example, there is also Primitive communism. (4) The prominent leader Karl Kautsky wrote a long article on Christianity and compared Christ's ideology to that of communisms. You see, many reasons not to ignore the connection laid down by many people - even though it is not my personal opinion. ActiveSelective 10:41, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
        • Active: The problem with all this stuff is that it is not mainstream and until such time as it's accepted by the mainstream churches this type of "information" will always run afoul of WP:NOR and hardly ever be fit to be NPOV. You know, Jesus lived so long ago you can call him anything you like, but that does mean it's valid to do so. Communism is associated with the likes of Joseph Stalin and Mao Tse Tung and it is doubtful that Jesus could or should be placed in the company of such modern-day figures. Why is it that there is this desire to connect anything significant to the Jews when the Jews and Judaism utterly reject such connections on their behalf? IZAK 11:30, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
          • Well, it's hard for me to defend an opinion that is not mine. But I think the argument goes something like this: the vision of communism is a classless and egalitarian society; communists are for the redistribution of wealth and organizing social security. A particular communist zionist movement organized kibutzim. It is not all that different from a Jesus who chases the rich out of the temple, shares bread and fish, and says the poor will be taken up in heaven and the rich should first share. ActiveSelective 15:42, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
            • Wow, I think that nails it, it is not more controversial to classify Jesus as a Communist than as a Jew, and it's hard to argue that he was not a Jew... I of course think of Jesus first as a Jewish Pacifist, which is hard to reconcile with Communism on one level because of the call for revolution, but if that revolution can come without bloodshed... //// Pacific PanDeist * 08:15, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
              • Example: Christian communism is a form of religious communism centered around Christianity. It is a theological and political theory based upon the view that the teachings of Jesus Christ compel Christians to support communism as the ideal social system. / For more examples, see Religious communism. ActiveSelective 08:57, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Everyone is a stealth Jew! JEW! JEWSSS!!! Danny Lilithborne 05:28, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
*Comment If anyone is as initially confused by Danny's link, it's to a page that makes fun of a genuine(ly appalling) website, namely [1]. If you have a strong stomach, check out the author's comments on 9-11. --Dweller 10:45, 7 July 2006 (UTC) -
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletions. - CrazyRussian talk/email 05:29, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. Not a useful list. -Will Beback 05:48, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. It is impossible to imagine that this will ever turn into an academic, reliable encyclopedia article, especially on any kind of Wiki. RK 17:44, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep - You're very right anti-semites have no business here or anywhere, and therefore your warning is a valuable addition to the pages and talk pages. Not oposing that, the combination of the two subjects (the love-hate-relationship of Communism-and-Judaism and the Jewish communists caught in the middle) remains a very interesting object of study since it is connected to many questions in history and politics; it is just like the similar complicated love-hate-relationship of Judaism-and-Zionism (see Jews against zionism). Why did the people of one of the most backward countries in the world, and certainly the most anti-semite country, chose Trotsky (and other Jews) among their communist leaders? How very different where the personal and political fights of these particular communists against racism from outside, isolation from inside, opposing the zionist racism? Jewish communists have a very interesting history of their own no other Jew or communist has. Rather than deleting this list in order to prevent possible abuse (call it pre-emptive deletion) and thereby also preventing any normal use, I would suggest: (1) to add your warnings to the pages. (2) also to start an article on why it is difficult to determine who is a Jew and who not. How the term "Jew" changed during history from its original religious meaning to a new racial meaning and all the confusion and abuse inbetween? Then a "list of non-Jewish Jews" as illutration? ActiveSelective 06:19, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
    • I find the topic somewhat interesting as well, as a historian who is of Jewish background. Still, as Wikipedia:Relevance instructs us, just because a topic is interesting does not mean it is encyclopedic. The object of study you describe is beyond the scope of Wikipedia, as it is not Wikipedia's place to decide on the difficult question of who happens to be a Jew. (Religious affiliation is one criterion, but it does not apply to the bulk of 'Jewish' Communists, who, like Karl Marx, did not practice Judaism.) Thus, I cannot imagine this page continuing to exist within the framework of Wikipedia's content guidelines. 172 | Talk 06:55, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
      • (1) Well, I've seen many well written articles on problematic subjects. Atheist authors and believers cooperated on the Existence of god article, not deciding whether God exists or not, but displaying the whole spectrum of arguments evenly. With similar caution the different interpretations of the word "Jew" can be described. (2) Also, the list of terrorists is about who is 'generally considered' as such, and the list of humanists is about people who 'self-identify' as such - whether they are or not is thereby left out of the question. The perception of them being so is an important real power in itself. Likewise, Karl Marx is generally considered being 'Jewish' even though he wasn't religious. So, it means we should choose our words carefully here, indeed. We must also reference to the article Who is a Jew?. ActiveSelective 08:28, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
        • This is not just a problematic subject, but a problematic list. Just about every entry on the list would be a POV judgment call. Your own addition, Jesus Christ - according to some interpretations a communist Jew, in particular, raised eyebrows. 172 | Talk 08:37, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
          • I hear you. You are welcome to delete the entry. ActiveSelective 08:50, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per above.--Tdxiang 06:32, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak keep - ActiveSelective does make some valid points I'd heard before (not from anti-Semites, which I am not). With reservations because of the obvious target, but would prefer to "be bold" with articles. If the list isn't fleshed out with more substance and discussions of this unique political/religious subset in due time, though, I'd likely change my vote. HumbleGod 06:41, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom (I like Jesus Christ as the #2 Jewish Communist abakharev 06:53, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
    • Jesus Christ - according to some interpretations a communist Jew I missed that line earlier. Yeah, this article ought to go. 172 | Talk 06:56, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per Jesus and indiscriminate nature of list. What's next - list of redhaired wide receivers? - CrazyRussian talk/email 07:03, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. As mentioned, this 'list' was compiled by a previous troublemaker, and is likely just another joke of his. There are only so many Communists in the world and whether or not they are Jewish or are of Jewish ancestry is entirely irrelevant unless they say otherwise. On a more personal note, this strikes me as an attempt to black-list Leon Trotsky, a human being I have much respect for (this comment withstanding bias). Black-Velvet 08:42, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong delete per nom and indeed everyone else. Surprising this page has lasted this long. David | Talk 08:44, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete this very clumsily written list. It's in fact a misnomer to say "Jewish communists" as this article implies quite blatantly that it's somehow one's "Jewish-ness" (implying a connection to Judaism as well) that has anything to do with being or becoming a "Jewish communist." This is similar to claims by communists that it is "Jewish capitalists" or "Jewish financiers" who are behind the world's ills. Then there is the claim that there is "Jewish racism" versus the power of "Jewish liberalism". So its "Jewish-this and Jewish-that" and it's all quite meaningless. This madness can go on and on unless it is stopped, and now is as a good a time as any to do so. Perhaps a better title may have been Communists of Jewish descent or The role of Jews in the history of Communism written in a very delicate and professional manner, but as this article stands it is nowhere near that. IZAK 09:47, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
    • A rename is fine. More info in the article is definitely very very welcome. However, I do not see how the article determines communism to be a Jewish thing. People become communist by chosing, whatever their religious or ethnical background. Likewise, you're not seriously considering List of Jewish Nobel Prize winners to be about 'Winners of the Jewish Nobel Prize', are you? ActiveSelective 10:46, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
      • Active: I do not like any lists or categories of Jews. At one time I thought some moderate lists were ok, but things have gotten out of control on Wikipedia with all kinds of crazy lists growing every day (see Category:Lists of Jews). See my views about any lists or categories of Jews at User:IZAK/Deleting lists and categories of Jews. Wikipedia is NOT Jew Watch and should not be inadvertantly aping it. IZAK 11:39, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak delete. Very valid topic but very bad form. --TJive 10:07, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. As a general principle, we shouldn't be making lists of members of ethnic group-by-ideology. However, per IZAK, I think there would be room in Wikipedia for a careful article along the lines of The Communist Party and African-Americans.--Pharos 10:11, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak Keep, per above keeps. ShaunES 10:16, 4 July 2006 (UTC).
  • Delete Gilgamesh he 11:37, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy Delete I often ignore articles about Jews when there are similar articles about other groups. There aren't any communist lists focusing on Christians, Muslims, or Buddhists. Obviously another anti-semitic attempt to skew the Wiki against Jews. --Yodamace1 11:45, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete POV bait Kuratowski's Ghost 11:48, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. Inherent POV risk, pointless list (an article on Jewish communists would fare much better). Also: why does it presently lists socialists, labour activists, feminists? And what is the point in listing books? JFW | T@lk 12:02, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete: we already have lists of jewish politicians, so why single out Communism?--Brownlee 12:25, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per above. --PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€ 12:26, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. POV and to properties that are about as unrelated as things get. - Mgm|(talk) 12:33, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete An article explaing the relationship between Jews and Communism (ie zionism etc) is one thing, but a list of Jewish communist has no meaning. Jon513 12:50, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nomination - these "list of Jewish xxx" have got to go. --Leifern 12:55, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per Kuratowski's Ghost --Ioannes Pragensis 13:34, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Delete As per most of the above. I'm not sure this deserves inclusion. After all why not include a list of socialist zoroastrians if the above deserves entry. Amists 13:47, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete it's nearly as hard to decide who's a communist as it is to decide who's a jew! jnothman talk 13:55, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per WP:WING --Shirahadasha 14:03, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Wikipedia need not foster or revive the Jewish-Communist conspiracy fetish. Dauster 15:02, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Delete I would also oppose a list of Catholic fascists. The conceptual frame for both is one that amplifies historic stereotyping while obscuring encyclopedic content. These--and similar diads involving a religion and an object of scorn--need to be enclosed within broader discussions in order to minimize their use by bigots by placing the discussion in a detailed and nuanced context. This is the approach at Neofascism_and_religion that helped calm down edit wars and exploitation by bigots. In addition, the underlying assumption of the existing entry is that Jews appear to be a biological or genetic concept, rather than a religion and ethnicity with a wide range of forms. Some of the people listed clearly walked away from both the religion and the ethnicity. What is left is the non-existant racial or biological "Jew"--the core concept of Hitler. Wikipedia should avoid taxonomies favored by the Nazis. The page looks just like dozens of others I have studies...on neonazi websites. Same claims. Same list. Same echos.--Cberlet 16:07, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete I see no point in having a list when the communists in question are described on individual pages. -- Owoc 16:31, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nomination and jnothman. --Metropolitan90 16:40, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete this crap. Antisemites are always trying to ascribe everything evil to Jews, not the least pernicious association of which is this particular one. A study of Jews in the history of communism might be worthwhile, such as the article The role of Jews in the history of Communism that IZAK mentions, but that article ain't this one. The only possible use for this article is if it's gutted and restarted to cover the epithet of Jews as Communists, but that clearly was not the purpose of this article, nor do I see anyone volunteering to write one up...regardless, the present article should not be preserved in the history of such an article should it ever be written. Tomertalk 16:55, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Delete per Opabinia regalis and CrazyRussian. Non-encycopedic listcruft that violates WP:POV. Agent 86 17:09, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. It should be noted that Walter Benjamin, a German-Jewish philosopher, theorized, albeit in very oblique terms, a connection between Dialectical materialism (the philosophical core of Marxism) and Jewish mysticism. However, this list does not explore this issue. As many have pointed out, many of those listed can only be determined as either Jewish or communist loosely, if at all. Moreover, Jesus was not a communist, for much the same reason as why the Sumerians were not Christian: namely, it's utterly anachronistic. Communism specifically stipulates its own emergence in the process of history; therefore it makes little sense to call someone who lived two millenia ago a Communist. --Ori Livneh (talk..contribs) 17:36, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
    Keep, per ActiveSelective's justification. --Ori Livneh (talk) 01:16, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Deleteper nom. -- Alias Flood 18:01, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Deleteper nom. -- Runcorn 19:28, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom (with apologies to comrade Jesus) --IslaySolomon 19:46, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete This just screams POV PLAYGROUND and would take some serious surveillance effort from editors who probably aren't all too interested in keeping the list to not attract all kinds of Wikirabble. ~ trialsanderrors 01:32, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per Pharos. There's a way to deal with this topic, but a list isn't it. Ziggurat 01:57, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment I took a look at the article and three questions came to mind. (1.) Are there many lists of communists by ethncity and lists of communists by religion and if so for which ethnicities and religions do such lists exist? (2.) Isn't there a lot of tension between communism (as an ideology) and the sectoralism of non-national identities as well as between communism and religion? (3.) If such tension does exist, how well can this be covered in a list? Regards, gidonb 04:13, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
    • Good questions. Let me first say that I didn't start the 'article' (it seems to be done by someone with not so best intentions) but I did try to make it into something more decent yesterday. So I might not be able to answer everything as good:
      1. You can type in "american communists" and wikipedia gives you the CPUSA party. You can type in "german communists" and wikipedia gives you SED party. Etcetera. Etcetera. However, when you type in "jewish communists", wikipedia does not give an article about a Jewish communist party. We cannot refer to a Jewish communist party since there existed none (or not for long) in history, so we can and must refer to a list of Jewish individuals (Leon Davidovitsh Bronstein / Leon Trotsky was a very prominent example). (* Comment - Israeli party Hadash made up of the Communist Party of Israel remnant of the Communist Party of Palestine --TheYmode 04:10, 8 July 2006 (UTC) )
      2. The difficult debate about the definition of "Jew" (religion, ethnicity, race, culture, etc. etc.) is dealt with already in the article Who is a Jew? Therefore this list starts with: This page is a list of people identified as Jews, either by themselves or by others. "Jewishness" has the meanings both of "adherence to the religion of Judaism" and "membership in the ethnic group 'Jews'. People of both groups are listed here. By other criteria, these people may be listed under other nationalities as well. See: Who is a Jew? This warning is copied from other Lists of Jews. See List of Jewish Nobel Prize winners, for example. So Leon Trotsky and Rosa Luxemburg are considered "Jew" because of ancestry.
      3. There are many forms of "communism": it is the vision of an egalitarian society, it is also the communist movement for social change, even distribution of wealth and social security. So communism is not necessarily bad. It is also the good/bad legacy of communist individuals, the party bureaucracy, etc. There are pre-Marx communisms: Primitive communism. There are combinations with religion: Christian communism and Religious communism. So, why would being Jewish (religiously or ethnically) and being communist then be impossible?
      4. Communism has its distinct tactics and strategies against anti-Semitism, through workers unions, and workers revolt, "workers across the world, unite!" etc. However, no other communists but Jewish communists were the direct victims of anti-Semitism. This makes this group especially interesting: 1. no other communist but Jewish communists had the "inside" view of being direct victims, 2. and no other Jew but the communist Jews were trying these communist strategies against anti-Semitism. Their views and position are unique, special, interesting, and valuable. That's why I also added the articles on "The Jewish Question" (the old name for fighting against anti-Semitism) in which they describe their strategies against anti-Semitism. ActiveSelective 08:46, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
        There is already an article on Jewish Communism, it's just called by its Hebrew name...see kibbutz. Tomertalk 00:53, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
        You are partly right. The Kibbutz movement was communist, indeed. However, it was only one particular form of communism. The majority of Jewish communists were on odd terms with the Kibbutz commies. They'd rather fight in the country they lived, loved and worked in, than move away into hiding somewhere near Jerusalem. See for example my super hero Marek Edelman: he fought the nazis (Warsaw Ghetto Rising) and after WWII the Stalinist dictatorship (Solidarinosc). You see, there is still need for such an article. ActiveSelective 01:28, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
        I would be inclined to agree with you iff you could show me non-antisemitic sources that demonstrate that there's something about their Jewishness that serves as a source of commonality for Jewish communists. The point is, as others have pointed out here and elsewhere previously, Jewish mensheviks had more in common with other Russian communists (and with the kibbutzniqim) than they did with Marek Edelman and his ilk or Arthur Koestler and his ilk. Tomertalk 03:42, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Per (far) above -Seidenstud 06:17, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Valid topic. I also reject the nom's bizarre speculation regarding neo-nazism and anti-semitism. Those sort of scare tactics have no place on AfD. --JJay 17:36, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete strictly on grounds of lack of verification. If sources were added that these people were indeed Jewish and communist, I would opine keep instead. I agree with JJay as well, speculation as to what sort of editors an article will attract is completely irrelevant to an AfD discussion. POV pushing is to be dealt with by editing, not deletion.--Isotope23 18:26, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete As per nom, too overly specific, will definately be a troll magnet. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 23:03, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. I'm not convinced this is a useful or verifiable list. There doesn't seem to be any point in connecting the two. --Aguerriero (talk) 19:43, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. If there are lists of other communists by ethnicity, then Jewish shouldn't be the sole exception. I don't think the subject list refers to Judaiam = Jewish religion, but Jewish ethno-centrism within the larger context of the period, and in that context the anti-Russian, anti-czar activities of early Bolsheviks could be explored, and many of the leaders were indeed of Jewish ethnicity. Karl Marx was an ethnic Jew too, was he not? Is there a reason to deny this information from the reader?Yukirat 06:43, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
    For the record, as has been discussed numerous times, "Jewish ethnocentrism" (see also here and background for that here) is an equally offensive epithet favored by antisemites... Tomertalk 14:44, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
    Jewish is an ethnicity and a religion, it cannot be neither. Thanks. The Bolshevik leaders weren't religious, but they were still ethnically Jewish. It wasn't used an an "epithet".Yukirat 17:14, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
    Their leaders weren't religious, to be certain, and they were ethnically Jewish, and I think it's pretty bizarre that no mention of the fact that what caused them to storm out of the Congress where they became dubbed as "mensheviks" was in response to the excessively antisemitic remarks (which would have made Göbbels proud) made by the "bolsheviks" is never mentioned in either menshevik or bolshevik... That notwithstanding, there are two things you mention here, both of which are easily refutable wrt the usefulness of this category. (1) "Jewish" is both an ethnicity and a religion, to be sure, but that's not really relevant to anything anyone's said here in arguing against the usefulness of this category... the problem is that there is nothing demonstrable about their Jewishness that makes these Communists' Jewishness notable, as such. If it were "ethnicity" that were important, then Karl Marx should be included as in Category:German communists since his family was originally from Germany, Category:Christian communists and/or Category:Lutheran communists since he was raised as a Lutheran Christian and Category:English communists or Category:British communists since he lived most of his life in England and Category:White communists (since he was white). The fact that his father [I've never seen anyone presentation of evidence that his mother was Jewish] is irrelevant since he's [if his mother wasn't Jewish] not Jewish according to halakha, but that notwithstanding, his father's [and even his mother's, if she was Jewish] Jewish ancestry is rendered allthemore irrelevant, at least inasmuch as the merits of this category are concerned, because of his father's and family's conversion to Lutheranism while he was still young (if he was even born yet...our article on him doesn't discuss even when his father converted to Lutheranism), and because at no time in his life is there any record that Marx even once identified himself, even in an effort to openly disparage his "bourgeoisie" ancestry, as "Jewish". On the other point (2), the business about "Jewish ethnocentrism" I was referring to, is the indisputable fact that the phrase "Jewish ethnocentrism" is used almost exclusively as an epithet by antisemites. The assertion of "ethnocentrism", vis-à-vis the Jews, generally is tangled up in a grotesquely mangled misperception about the meaning of "Jews as a chosen people", which always ends up coming out as an indictment against the Jews of such "crimes" as "exclusivity", "aloofness", "superiority-complex", etc. [which generally describe the claimants of "ethnocentrism" far better than they've ever described Jews...but when these people suffer from a severe inferiority complex coupled with poor education, there's no accounting for the illogic they'll come up with to support their conspiracy theories...] That notwithstanding, the assertion that it was "Jewish ethno-centrism" that made communism attractive or naturally compatible with Judaism as you imply, is a non-sequitur on two fronts...not only did the early communists-who-happened-to-be-Jews not suffer any sort of "Jewish ethno-centrism", they in fact eschewed any signs of ethno-centrism (and reserved their most venemous vitriol for observant Jews), but also the idea that they had some sort of "Jewish ethno-centrism" is utterly erroneous since, as you yourself acknowledge, they didn't identify with Judaism at all! The only thing that made them Jewish was their ancestry, and that ancestry played no significant rôle whatsoever in their communist ideology. TIA. Tomertalk 09:46, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
>> Yukarit, the supposed "ethnocentrism" is nonsensical and racist. You neither listened to Tomer an TShilo's arguments, nor read anything about / written by these communists. And I don't think the way you'd like to see this article go, is gonna be my way too.
>> TShilo12, Tomer, Gidonb, et al, even though I think an article on Jewish Communists is legitimate and can be well written, I am very pleased to see the overwhelming number of people voting 'delete' here. It shows that editors are vigilent against any possible anti-Semitism. Although it is blocking the article, the knee-jerk automatism ("Jewish? Communism? Oh no, it must be anti-Semitism!") is a good first reaction. But think about it twice: Yes, the combination 'Jew' and 'Communism' has been abused many times by anti-Semites, but does that mean we need to give in to their nasty POV?
Communists were internationalists calling for workers of all backgrounds to unite against an economical system of exploitation -- an international workers victory. They were not "anti-Russian", not "Jewish ethnocentrist", nor "anti-Semite". Just like the French non-Jewish communist Emile Zola was one of the few to defend Alfred Dreyfus, so were the Russian communists defending Jewish and Christian minorities against the Tsarist pogroms. In the most anti-Semite country in the world, the Russian communist movement voted (among others) for Jews to lead them.
However, communism has a different side too. There is a difficulty with the word 'communism' which is almost analogous to the difficulty of the word 'Jewish'. In history new meanings have been added and now there are several communisms like there are several ways of being considered 'Jewish'. The name has been long abused by Stalinist powers for the exact opposite: anti-internationalism (because of economic competition with foreign economies), anti-worker (because of exploitation of the working class), anti-Semite (in order to divert attention). To put it plainly: Stalinism is anti-communism. That's why he had Trotsky, Old Bolsheviks (of whom many were Jews) and their followers killed in The Great Purge (the Stalinist Counter-Revolution). The whole sharade was wrapped in red banners and portraits of Marx, but Marx, communism and Communist Jews obviously had nothing to do with that kind of 'communism'.
Again, what legitimizes an article on Jewish Communists is that they were singled out on many occasions by anti-Semites. Because they were singled out so often and so harshly, they had a unique position as Jews among communists and as communists among Jews. They had unique experiences and strategies of fighting against anti-Semitism. Other communists and Jews did not have both. They have written down their valuable lessons (see List). What makes these valuable is not that they were 'religiously Jewish' (most were not), nor that 'race' should somehow be of importance (it should not!). What makes their lives and lessons valuable is that they were forced by the historical circumstances (by anti-Semitism and by social change) to become the unique combination of experiences and to do something about these circumstances. Not the Jewishness-in-itself played a role in becoming communist, but the being a direct victim of anti-Semitism that was haunting your 'Jewishness' was. (We could name it "List of Communists haunted by anti-Semitism because of their ancestry" but that would be a bit strange). It would be a waste to ignore this in an encyclopidia.
Yes, I do also think a longer article "history of Jews and Communism" is better than just a list of individuals and their works. No doubt in my mind this list will be deleted. A massive numbers voted against - that's good and sad at the same time. Still, we have to start somewhere. ActiveSelective 11:49, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
ActiveSelective: I think you'll find that pretty much everyone who's voted "delete" would be perfectly content to see an article such as Role of Jews in the history of communism or History of Jews and communism. The problem with this article [i.e., this "List of..."] is that, as a list, it makes no room for actual discussion of the rôle Jews played in the development of communist ideologies, nor is there any room for coverage of the fate of Jews living under communist régimes. As I mentioned earlier, there is such a thing as "Jewish communism", and it's covered briefly at kibbutz. As you mention above, Jews (among other groups) suffered horribly under Stalin's "communism"...when you talked about the goal of communism as the deshackling of workers worldwide, that's true, but Stalin's communism wasn't as "anti-communist" as you describe it...instead it was bolshevik philosophy in action (the masses are too dumb to "do communism" themselves), indeed the very philosophy that the mensheviks had so vehemently rejected. Anyways...I think this discussion, if it goes much further, should prolly be moved to the talkpage... Cheers, Tomertalk 18:09, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per answers of ActiveSelective above. Yes, he does try to make something out of an extremely problematic (if not bashing) list, but, as his answers illustrate, it is a unique list among among non-national ethnicities and religious groups. It seems unique even among nationalities! Perhaps this is not without reason. A list is not the correct form to deal with the deep conflicts between communism, (non-national) ethnicity and religion. Instead I would recommend a history of Jews and communism article, which would include the intellectual and other contributions to communism, the Jewish and Arab-Jewish communist movements in Israel/Palestine and the long history of Soviet policies and practicies with respect to and against Jews and Judaism. gidonb 10:55, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. Wikipedia needs this like it needs a list of toasters that are available in stainless steel. RedNitrogen 03:58, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per gidonb. P.S. didn't knew Jesus Christ was a commie... --TheYmode 04:10, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, primarily per nom. This is a largely indiscriminate collection of information with an unclear definition of inclusion: Pointing to Who is a Jew? is not helpful for defining who should be included in this list, because, well, its an open question. This list presents a question without an answer to me, which is its fatal problem. Grandmasterka 04:12, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per gidonb. Pecher Talk 14:44, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete or extremely weak merge - Extremely problematic article, possible POV fork, and the content is better discussed in other places. —this is messedr͏̈ocker (talk) 20:45, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete what is this fascination with communism and Jews? List is unhelpfull. Categorise by profession please, not by beliefs or political affiliations (or both like this case). --Cat out 20:50, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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