Wiki143:Articles for deletion/List of Famous Nairs

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was keep. Wikiacc (talk) 20:52, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

List of Famous Nairs

Lot of unverified entries , Promotes casteism. (nominated by 59.93.35.216)

• Can the nominator please sign the nomination and explain the problem a bit more ? Would you also suggest deleting entries like List of famous Jews, or are you only against caste ? Tintin 11:31, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
• Agree with Tintin. Please be more specific. =Nichalp «Talk»= 12:30, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
• Comment: weren't castes abolished? If so, the list shouldn't the list only have historical names? -- Kjkolb 14:51, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

They are not abolished. They are very much around. Even the government provides reservation of jobs and seats in educational institutions for some castes, in a way similar to the affirmative action in USA. Tintin

Comment: When the Constitution of India was adopted on January 26, 1950, it abolished the caste system and guaranteed equality to all citizens." So, I guess they are giving the jobs to those who would have been in the lower castes. Since castes are outlawed, only tradition is keeping it intact. Wikipedia should not help in its preservation. Only historical names should be added, if it isn't deleted altogether. It's not the same as different ethnicities because ethnicities are not defined in terms of superiority, like castes are. It's having a list of people who are considered better/more clean than these other people. -- Kjkolb 09:53, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

This leads me to ask a question, please excuse my ignorance. If castes are outlawed, how do we know what castes these folks "would have been in"? I'm worried that this list, although notable, might be unverifiable. --best, kevin ···Kzollman | Talk··· 15:51, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

I have added my reply at the end. Tintin 17:49, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

• Keep, wikipedia users should be able to find examples of famous people from this caste. The problem of unverified entries can be solved by verifying or removing them. Does list of African Americans promote racism? Kappa 15:16, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
• Keep, rename to List of Nairs, according to the custom here. mikka (t) 23:21, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
• Keep and rename as per mikka. --best, kevin ···Kzollman | Talk··· 01:43, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
• Keep per Kappa. --Jacquelyn Marie 03:56, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
• Keep per Kappa Denni☯ 04:38, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Comments

• I'll try to address the comments of kjkolb and Kzollman here :

To kjkolb : I doubt about the validity of your statement about the Indian constitution (Nichalp should be able to confirm it one way or the other). What the constitution says will make little difference in what people do in this aspect anyway. It is also nonsensical to outlaw caste and then allow reservation on its basis. What the constitution has outlawed is probably only discrimination based on caste.

As wikipedia editors, we should be bothered only about recording things as they stand. It is not for us either to pass judgement, or do anything either to preserve or eradicate it.

Castes are a fact, whether we like it or not. In my personal experience, its influence has increased considerably in the last 15 years or so, when compared to the time when I was a schoolboy. Every political party tries to appease certain castes and draws heavily on caste based votes. A significant percentage of the parties are formed on the basis of caste alone.

To Kzollman : Nairs use some distinct surnames like Nair (obviously), Menon, Pillai, Panicker etc. So if someone or any of his relatives has that surname, it can be considered a valid entry. Some of the doubtful entries were discussed in the talk page; there are 10-20 entries which I am still not sure about. The list also contains too many unimportant people who need to be removed.

PS : I am not a Nair, btw ;-) Tintin 17:49, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Tintin, thank you. My concerns are aleviated, and I'll leave my keep vote above. --best, kevin ···Kzollman | Talk··· 17:59, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

I understand and agree somewhat. I know that Wikipedia isn't for changing society, but I'm concerned that by continuing to recognize castes as valid, it is not being neutral, either. In its very small way, it is helping to perpetuate castes. I think the article describing the Indian caste system is sufficient and neutral. It could say that it is being followed increasingly in recent years, but a list of people in a caste seems like celebrating and taking pride in it. It would be totally different if this had to do with ethnicity, but castes make value judgments on the people within them, some of them very bad, some good, but all undeserved. I'm sure there are a few who take pride in being called an "untouchable", but most people probably don't want to be known for it. It is something to be ashamed of and according to the Dalit article, some of them hide their caste/non-caste. It's about as attractive as being on a list of "mud people", a term some use to describe non-whites. -- Kjkolb 05:20, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

I'll resist the temptation to give my personal views on the subject and just say that I generally agree with you, but consider this as just a list of trivia. I wouldn't take my time start one of this kind but now that it is here I have no problem with it staying on. It is not interesting, but hopefully someone will find it useful. Tintin 14:38, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Will Prakash Karat tolerate him being listed in this casteist page ? Many people cannot tolerate their names being identified with caste? My name is in this list and I don't like it. Please take permission of the concerned persons before adding to this list

• If your name is really on the list, the first thing I have to say is that we are very glad to have you with us !

I disagree with your comments that the editors should not add things that the subject of the article may not agree with. If the subject is notable and the facts are verifiable it belongs here. Karat is certainly famous. It can be verified that his parents are Nairs. Whether he likes it or not, he is/was a Nair and is atleast a 'former Nair'.

What certainly can be done to make it accurate is to add a comment about this 'former' aspect in the description, or move Karat and such others to a seperate section with an appropriate title. I'll add a comment about this in the talk page of the article for the regular editors [1].

If you think this page should be deleted, you are welcome to vote.

While we are it, if you are a regular wiki reader, I wonder whether you would like to contribute to the Kerala sections. There are hardly any articles that come up to scratch and we are way behind Tamil in terms of the quality of the articles. Tintin 15:05, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.