Wiki143:Articles for deletion/Dystopia (computer game)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was Sock Puppets aside, Keep --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 16:05, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Dystopia (computer game)

As was agreed in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Half-Life_2_DeathMatch_Pro debate, individual mods for video games are not inherently notable and do not deserve Wikipedia articles, no matter how colorful and well written. Dystopia is another HL2 Mod article and on this same principle, I move it for deletion as non-notable matter. GestaltG 18:32, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

• I am adding this to my nomination to delete, as it was inadvertantly omitted: Additionally, this article and game mod articles of it's kind are advertizements stuck into Wikipedia and are matter more suitable for fan sites and game promotional websites, neither of which is a function of Wikipedia. I nominate this page for deletion as useless fancruft and an advertizement. GestaltG 19:45, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Before you accuse this article of being merely an advertisement, read Wikipedia's policy on advertising. Since this article is quite objective and unbiased, along with being third-party verifiable, I find it a little perplexing that you would consider it advertising. Nufy8 20:01, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. I just read that DeathMatch Pro AfD, and still have yet to figure out how you came to the conclusion that the notion that individual mods for computer games aren't notable was agreed upon. Four people agreed upon deleting a certain mod's article, and that was pretty much it. That being said, Dystopia is as notable as any other popular Half-Life 2 mod out there. Do you plan on AfDing every single article on a video game mod? If so, you certainly have your work cut out for you. Nufy8 18:43, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
  • The DeathMatch Pro mod was not notable. If you say Dystopia is as notable as any other HL2 mod, then it is not notable. If A=B and B=C then A=C GestaltG 18:55, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
    • By that logic, it is notable; Garry's Mod, Natural Selection, Action Half-Life, and much more are notable, and they're all Half-Life or Half-Life 2 mods. Nufy8 19:04, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
      • Your argument is not making any sense. DeathMatch Pro was deleted as a non-notable game mod article to HL2 video game. Dystopia is another game mod article to HL2 video game. You have already said that Dystopia is "as notable as any other popular Half Life 2 mod." Therefore, if DeathMatch Pro was non-notable as a popular HL2 mod, Dystopia is also non-notable as a popular HL2 mod. GestaltG 19:11, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
        • Let me rephrase. If, by your logic, Dystopia is non-notable because another "popular" Half-Life 2 mod was deleted, then that still leaves many more Half-Life 2 mods out that are considered notable, hence it is as notable as them. Nufy8 19:18, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
          • You cannot make the statement that the other HL2 mods are considered notable as the notablity of those articles has not been tested. I can however say, that DeathMatch Pro, a HL2 mod was non-notable, because it's notability was tested and the result was that it was deleted as non-notable. GestaltG 19:22, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
            • Consider this. DeathMatch Pro was only edited by two anons and one registered user whose main purpose was to advertise the mod. Now take a look at the Wikipedians who have edited an article like Garry's Mod. I'm sure most of them feel it to be quite notable, tested or not. Nufy8 19:31, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

• • And in answer to your other question, yes, whenever I find them. Now, I am not specifically looking for video game mod articles, hence, I am not on an editorial "crusade" here if you will. I don't know the names of most of the video games out there, I don't really play many video games (I do own some), but in this particular case, since these articles were mentioned in the DeathMatch Pro Afd debate, I am following up the results of that debate to insure that the editing across Wikipedia is consistant (a constant problem for Wikipedia, consistancy of editing, I am just trying to help), at least in regards to the HL2 articles in the recent Afd debate. GestaltG 19:07, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
    • DeathMatch Pro was AfDed and was a mod of Half-Life 2. Consistency wouldn't be to delete every Half-Life 2 mod, because the reason it was deleted wasn't because it was a Half-Life 2 mod. Nufy8 19:18, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment arguing against GestaltG's "logic" about the consensus won't do you much good - the article was deleted, and that deletion is now being cited as precedent. -- Thesquire (talk - contribs) 06:17, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
      • A false precedent that assumes the article was deleted because it was a Half-Life 2 mod. Nufy8 06:23, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. A search for Dystopia" and "computer game" on google produced over 20k results. [1] "The comment in the DeathMatch Pro Afd by User:Daveb states "they are not notable enough to deserve an encyclopedic article". In terms of notablity, 20k hits on a fairly restrictive search makes the game notable enough for me. Englishrose 21:26, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Dystopia is one of the most popular Half-Life 2 mods and at any time has many full servers running. This puts it at the very top of third-player mods for Half-Life 2 in terms of popularity. Cyde Weys _vote^talk 06:11, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
• Delete: mods of games are not notable - there's already a List of Half-Life 2 mods for that kind of stuff. -- Thesquire (talk - contribs) 06:17, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
  • That's ridiculous. Counter-Strike is a mod of a game and millions of people play it. Are you really going to say it's non-notable?! There's a gradation of notability between game mods like Counter-Strike all the way down to an unreleased vaporware mod some people made up. Obviously the former belongs in Wikipedia and the latter doesn't, and the issue at hand is where in the continuum do you say "this is an acceptable topic for a Wikipedia article and this isn't"? Personally my criteria are thus: if the mod has a playable released version, has a website, and at any given time there are many people playing the mod, then it is "notable" enough. Dystopia meets these criteria. --Cyde Weys _vote^talk 06:29, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Dystopia may be a relatively minor piece of human knowledge, but it is a significant piece nonetheless. As a relatively unique mod, and as a mod that has a fan base (small, but growing), it is as valid as any piece that is played, watched or viewed. It may be in the beginning of its life, but it has a following. If cult movies and TV shows have a place on Wikipedia, mods that have a following have a place too. If it can be (and is, or needs to be) referenced to, it belongs on Wikipedia. Where in the lifespan of a cultural item does it become a valid thing to be referenced? One million users? Two? After it has been around for a significant amount of time? As long as it is being followed (or had a period of significant following), it should be referenced. As long as it is unique, it should be referenced. --Tssha 12:02, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. Per Cyde Weys. If it's of genuine interest, it's hard to see what objection there could be. James James 12:08, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
• Keep This is asinine. I have a hunch that this AfD is simply the work of someone who feels their own mod is threatened by Dystopia. 'Notability'? Dystopia has been downloaded, what, 200,000 times? It's got over a million unique hits on the webpage? It's been in HOW MANY professional magazines? Uranium - 235 04:17, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. The online gaming scene is a cultural phenomenon, which over the last 5 years has quickly grown to be a socially acceptable and widely spread past time. This scene has been driven by modifcations for commercial games; Threewave CTF for Quake, Rocket Arena for Quake, Quake 2 and Quake 3, OSP for Quake 2 and Quake 3, and of course the best example: Counterstrike for Half-Life. To attempting to draw a line in the sand and say that ALL mods are "non-notable" is ridiculous. As for Dystopia, it's the 2nd most played 3rd party modification for Half-Life 2 with a user base of some 100,000 players. Lets at least put forward some scientific measure of what is considered notable, rather than putting things forward for deletion based on the feelings of someone who admits to have no interest and no knowledge on the topic. (Full disclosure: I am the project leader for Dystopia, thus incredibly biased. However, neither myself or any other development team member has edited the Dystopia page. The entry isn't here for advertising, it's here because obviously our fans feel that it's a worthy and notable contribution to the game modding phenomenon. It is a free product for which the developers recieve no monetary return, we are simply dedicated to creating a cool game.) Fuzzwah 04:39, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

• Keep This mod is just like the Sourceforts article, it is a contributing member of the Half Life 2 Community. Is the Article on Economy of the United States a notable article, or should it be included in the basic article of the United States of America. this is a valid entry, and should stay. also, Dystopia mod is NOT a basic rip-off of HL2 Deathmatch, but a very unique game. If you play it, then you will see, this is as much of a diffence as HL2 Deathmatch is from Counter Stike Source. Dystopia is notable because it offers the Innovation of a truly dynamic style of play, and the ablility to fight in literaly two different maps at the same time. Also, a vote of Four against a pretty dead mod should NOT be the deciding factor on EVERY mod for Half Life 2. 4 people, as said in the Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/SourceForts, is LESS than 1% of the total Wikipida viewer base. also, if you say Dystopia is Not Inherintly notable, than Counterstrike Source, Day Of Defeat Source and Half life 2 Deathmatch artilces should also be deleted, as they are "Not Inharintly Notable" Because they all were once mods! ~Kylegar

• Keep As a SourceForts dev and longstanding member of the community, I find it absolutely ridiculous, if not offense, that GestaltG thinks a four person vote on ONE particular mod gives him mandate to mark ALL HL2 mods for deletion, regardless of their popularity or uniqueness. HL2DM Pro was not notable because it made negligible changes to HL2DM, a game released by Valve. Dystopia, like many other HL2 mods ARE notable because they make HUGE changes to the game which the mod is built on, making it an entirely new and unique game. GestaltG's argument is that a mod's status as a mod is enough to negate its creative and unique aspects, and I think we can all see how such an argument is totally ridiculous, if not laughable. Someone should mark his Beastmaster article for deletion, since it's nothing more than "useless fancruff and an advertisement", such a thing should be saved for a fansite by his logic.

• Keep I find it quite odd that anyone would consider a mod of this popularity "non-notable". Hell, there was a point where members playing dystopia outnumbered members playing HL2 deathmatch. I think this attitude is honestly coming from overly conservative thinkers that do not realize that just because a video game is made on the same engine as the source engine does not mean that it is inherently the same game or somhing lesser. If that were the case then Quake 4 articles should be deleted because Quake 4 is really just a mod of Doom3.~Somniloquist

• KeepWhat I find surprising is that you're deleting an article on a mod of HL2, when you're just fine to have one on leg hair (a stub, at that).

• KeepThere are 2 leagues formed for this mod, each of which have clans from countries all over the world. I believe that is extremely notable. Cyanyde 06:21, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

• KeepDystopia is an entirely new game and adds much more than the original Half-life2.'Proffesional' clans beeing formed, people helping new people who join every day and a development team putting so much effort into the mod.I think this and many other mods for any game a very notable.And besides that did you actually play it?~@BLOODy

• KeepDystopia is no less significant than any other wikipedia entry and has a valid stake in history.

• KeepThis mod and any other has the right to be part of this global information source and I want to remember you that there are entries about much less notable things that no one ever had thought of deleting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limecat -Sherb

• • Limecat? Try Gestalt's own 'Beastmaster' entry. He says it's 'undisputed'. It could be because no one gives a rat's ass about a bad show that had no viewers.

• Keep I didn't realise that there was limited space on here. What does it matter if there are articles on mods for video games? Wikipedia is a source of information. If I want to get information on certain modifications for Half-Life 2 then I should be able to come here and get a large amount of information about it.

- Hezzy. http://www.facepunchstudios.com

• Keep Mods have been known to have a massve impact on gaming and games in general. Look back to the original Counter-Strike, which eventualy eclipsed the game it was a modification of and still remains the most played online game on the planet.

GestaltG seems overly opinionated and under informed (to show restraint and put it politely). Maybe he should stick to posting items on obscure television shows that no one cares about, instead of asking for entire communities made up of thousands of fans to be ignored. The Dystopia Mod and Source Forts in particular show huge promise. What an Idiot. -Waargawn.

• KeepThis page is highly informitive and does a good job of adhering to encycleopedic standards. Dystopia is a total conversion consisting of compleatly new content and gameplay in every way compared to HL2. It's no less notable then any retail project. SwiftSpear 07:53PST, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.