Wiki143:Articles for deletion/Al-Zubair ibn Abd al-Muttalib

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was no consensus; therefore, keep.. – Alphax ^τεχ 06:45, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Al-Zubair ibn Abd al-Muttalib

Delete. No claim to notability. He was someone’s son and he had a daughter. That’s the extent of the article: nothing more than genealogy. ♠DanMS 00:24, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Keep (barely). I am changing the vote of my original nomination. The article has been somewhat expanded and claims of notability made for this person. However, the article needs to be cleaned up, referenced, and expanded, and the red links need to be filled in. ♠DanMS 23:04, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

• Delete. The only notability I could find was that he is the uncle of Muhammad. -Haon 01:41, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
• Comment - no vote, but I suspect there's room for expansion for an uncle of Muhammed.  BD2412 ^talk 03:44, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
• Strong Keep. Figures this close to the center of a major religion are always notable, even if they just get a line in the texts themselves. --Aquillion 04:25, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
• Keep, AFAIK, from the Muslim point of view, all the relatives of Muhammed are notable - Skysmith 09:02, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
• Delete per nom.Gator1 14:19, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
• Undecided Apparently he was the son of the grandfather of Muhammad. However, if that's absolutely all that can be said about him, it should be merged, probably into Shaiba ibn Hashim. I would support keeping if more information exists, however. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 15:52, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep I said I would support keeping if more information could be found, and this has indeed happened. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 22:23, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
• Delete per who? the nominator, of course. Molotov (talk) File:Flag of California.svg
  16:05, 21 October 2005

• • Change from delete to keep Great work J. V/M
    19:07, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. --JJay 19:39, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. Changing my vote per Bggoldie and the expansion of the article. Suggest everyone reconsider based on the new information. --JJay 03:35, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
• M\e/r\g/e into Shaiba ibn Hashim, unless and until sufficient material is adduced to justify a separate article.  BD2412 ^talk 21:37, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep, as Bggoldie has indicated an intent to expand this article, and has added material suggesting potential for much more.  BD2412 ^talk 22:10, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
• Delete not anything close to notable. E. Brown, Hurricane enthusiast - my dropsonde 22:11, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
• Delete per nom --JAranda | watz sup 22:14, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
• Keep and expand. This article has been stubbified and there is a link provided to a narrative involving this individual. How can this be NN? Surely one of our Muslim Wikipedists can expand the stub. - Sensor 22:23, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
• Keep for the time being. Notability is certainly established, and, if this is truly unexpandable, it can be later merged into Shaiba ibn Hashim. - A Man In Black (conspire | past ops) 02:04, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
• Weak keep (add another weak) There are so many traditions with family lines... in some ways it's almost like listing all of the names at the beginning of the Gospel of Matthew... and might very well be un-expandable. However, we often keep pretty non-notable people and I think that he has a degree of importance. I don't think it should be deleted now, but I would never have created it. gren グレン 04:07, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
  • It seems that it's been made better, at least to a real stub. gren グレン 03:58, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
• Delete per nom --Me or a Robin 10:57, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
• Strong keep. There is a chain of prophet Muhammad's relatives and a story going back to the prophet: Abd al-Muttalib ibn Hashim → Al-Zubair ibn Abd al-Muttalib → Duba'ah and her home → story with the camel (seen in 3 islamic sites [1], [2] and a blog). I would rather expand the text to include the story in this or separate article. Do we know what is the moral of the story? We have to respect muslims' beliefs and let them to decide the importance of the episode. --

Bggoldie 17:48, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Added two links to the article. I think it is worth expansion instead of deletion. -- Bggoldie 18:14, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

• Delete. IMO the very convoluted and probably mostly mythological lineage of Mohammed would be better served in a single Genealogy of Mohammed article rather than 500 stubs of X was the son of Y and father of Z. If one of them did something more notable than simply being related to Mohammed we can still make an article about them. Lochness Monstah 22:20, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment: If "containing convoluted and probably mostly mythological lineage" is a criterion for deletion, we could very well axe the articles on the Pentateuch. This individual is no less notable to Muslims than, say, Esau is to the Christians - and Esau has a whole boatload of stuff on him here. - Sensor 04:01, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
• Keep, now it says "Originator of a movement for the suppression of violence and injustice, formed at Mecca, in order to put an end to the Sacrilegious War. Founder of the order of chivalry known as the Hilf al-fudul.". Kappa 22:32, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
• Keep, why not? He was an major figure in the life of one of the most important person in history. --a.n.o.n.y.m ^t 03:55, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
• Keep short but informative stub Alf ^melmac 10:22, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.