Talk:William Sterndale Bennett

Old Comment

Perhaps this article should also mention that Sterndale Bennett's grandson, Thomas Case Sterndale Bennett, was also a composer, partcularly of popular songs in the Edwardian period. -- Ian Rutt (21/04/05)

Meeting with the remarkable Mendelssohn

A further London performance was given in June 1833. ... Among the audience was Felix Mendelssohn, who was sufficiently impressed to invite Bennett to the Lower Rhenish Music Festival in Düsseldorf.

Query: My Grove (5th ed and getting increasingly dated) says the concerto had its second performance on 30 March 1833, in the Hanover Square Rooms, and that this was where Mendelssohn met WSB and invited him to Germany. They describe the date 30 March as "a crucial one". I don't doubt other performances occurred, such as one in June, and that Mendelssohn was present at one or more of them.

Can we get clarity on exactly when this important first meeting happened? -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 21:27, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

The London premiere of the D minor concerto was indeed on 30 March 1833, but the current Grove (online edition) says it was at the 26 June 1833 performance that Mendelssohn was present and invited Bennett to Germany. The ODNB concurs, as does Bennett Jr in his 1907 biography of his father. Coming at it from the other direction, in his biography of Mendelssohn R Larry Todd says that Mendelssohn met Bennett "during the summer of 1833", which is consistent with the above rather than with Blom's Grove. Moreover, in the current Grove this same Todd says that on the first of his two visits to Britain during 1833 Mendelssohn didn't arrive in London until 25 April. – Tim riley (talk) 10:01, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

That makes perfect sense. Thanks, Tim. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 12:16, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

FA nom

Template:Ping (and of course anyone else who is interested) - I've now ventured to put this up for FA review with the hope of getting it on the front page on WSB's bicentenary birthday. Many thanks for your help and comments which I have tried to deal with - I've also had some useful input from WSB's ggggson Barry. I have not alas (yet) been able to deal with Ravpapa's point about WSB's personality - he seems in his published letters relatively unrevealing (in a typical Victorian way) about his own feelings.....--Smerus (talk) 12:56, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Recordings

I have added a recording of a song by Bennett. I have also tried to find other performers of Bennett's works on YouTube who are willing to change the licenses to CC3.0 so we can include them in the article - so far without luck.

I will also try to make a recording of his piano trio in the next few weeks.

Regards,

--Ravpapa (talk) 12:42, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

!תודה רבה--Smerus (talk) 15:22, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Lead

I would like to suggest a lead to this article which focuses more on Bennett's accomplishments than on his biography. Here is what I suggest:

William Sterndale Bennett (13 April 1816 – 1 February 1875) was an English composer, pianist, conductor and music educator. Protégé of Felix Mendelssohn and friend of Robert Schumann, he is considered Britain's leading composer of the early romantic period, a time when there was a dearth of musical creativity in Britain. As an educator, he taught a generation of composers who were the first generation of a new, characteristically British school of music. As an administrator, he founded and led numerous musical institutions in Britain, and rescued the faltering Royal Academy of Music from bankruptcy, building it into the leading music conservatory of Britain.

A child prodigy, Bennett was enrolled in the Royal Academy of Music at the age of 10. At 16, he performed his first piano concerto with orchestra. At 20, he had already built a reputation as a concert pianist.

A prolific composer early in his career, Bennett wrote six piano concertos, two symphonies, overtures, choral works, and a wealth of piano pieces. But as his teaching and administrative work grew, he found less and less time for composition. His style was conservative and restrained; Bennett's student Charles Villiers Stanford said his music "reflected the quite atmosphere of the English countryside," making him, possibly, the first composer to seek a specifically British idiom in his music. On the other hand, as musical romanticism advanced, Bennett remained steadfastly conservative in his compositions, leading contemporary critics to view his music as stodgy and out of step.

Bennett numbered among his students composers who were to be the founders of a distinctively British school of composition: Arthur Sullivan, Hubert Parry, Tobias Mathay, and others. He taught at the Royal Academy of Music, where he was also appointed principal, at Queen's College, London, and the University of Cambridge. He directed the Philharmonic Society, was a founder of the Bach Society in London. He took over principalship of the Royal Academy of Music in 1866, when the institution was on the brink of closure. An assertive administrator, Bennett lobbied Parliament to resume a cancelled annuity, and doubled the size of the student body during his tenure.

He was knighted in 1871. He died in London in 1875 and was buried in Westminster Abbey.

If this lead finds favor with the editors, I will also add an introductory paragraph to the section on Music, discussing the musical environment of Britain at the time, and the "Englishness" of Bennett's compositional style. I will also add a paragraph about his personality in the "Family" section. --Ravpapa (talk) 13:15, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for this. I like a number of things about this approach but I would make the following points:

• The lead should typically be no more than four paragraphs.( see WP:LEADLENGTH)
• The last para should imo be a sort of summary and should ideally say something about Bennett today (that he has been gradually revived and recorded, that there are some events for his bicentenary)
• You could get round this by merging paras 2 and 3 in your version, and paras 4 and 5, leaving room for a summary para 4.
• I would avoid phrases like 'stodgy and out of step' in the article, let alone the lead. (Anyway you've already called him 'conservative and restrained', and repetition especially in the lead is a no-no).

I think the article already gives examples (directly and indirectly) of the musical environment of England in WSB's time - perhaps it would not be advisable to load this too much in what is essentially a biographical article - the topic perhaps belongs to the (presently dismally poor) article Music of the United Kingdom. I will be interested to see how you tackle the "Englishness" of his style - I thought of attempting this but couldn't see a way into it. As you know the article is currently up for FA so it would be good to avoid anything that can't be clearly sourced and referenced. NB: I wouldn't say that the RAM was 'the leading', but 'a leading' - as there is the Royal College of Music, as well.....The phrase 'making him, possibly, the first composer to seek a specifically British idiom in his music' is imo highly suspect - reeks a bit of WP:OR. After all, there are Byrd, Tallis and Purcell....and in the early romantic period Pinto...... .Best, --Smerus (talk) 21:08, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

Regarding the Englishness of Bennett's music, I was planning on quoting from Stanford's article: "He was affected, it is true, by his intercourse with Germany and his close friendships with Germans, but he maintained his British characteristics throughout his life. In a former article which I contributed to this Review, I said: "The English take a kind of pride in concealing their feelings and emotions, and this is reflected in their folk-song. The Thames has no rapids and no falls; it winds along under its woods in a gentle stream, never dry and never halting; it is the type of the spirit of English folkmusic. .... England is as remote from Keltic fire and agony, as the Thames is from the Spey." Bennett was a typical specimen of this English characteristic. He was a poet, but of the school of Wordsworth rather than of Byron and Shelley." And on Cobbett: "There dwellsin Benntt's music a kind of Wordworthian gentleness, which as stanfor\d wrote 'refleted the quite atmosphere of the English countryside'". Also, I would point to the dominance of English themes and English poetry in his oevre.

As for musical environment, the article refers all the time to this, but as it is never stated explicitly, I think most readers will miss it. I was thinking of only a shortish paragraph, and maybe a quote from Mendelssohn's letter, to tie it all together: "... since [your compositions] took root in the minds of the true amateurs, my countrymen became aware that music is the same in England as in Germany, as everywhere; and so by your successes here you destroyed that prejudice which nobody could ever have destroyed but a true genius."

As for the lead in general, the question is whether you think this approach is an improvement on the current lead. I like it better, but if we don't all agree, there's no point in changing it just because of me. --Ravpapa (talk) 17:52, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

The Stanford quote is excellent, I have cut it down a little and placed it in the article, many thanks. NB the Mendelssohn quote is in the article already, under 'Reception' which I think makes the point you suggest. Best,--Smerus (talk) 12:27, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

Bicentenary

"In his bicentenary year of 2016, several concerts of his music have been planned." - I would guess that very soon that should include "performed" in some way. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:34, 12 March 2016 (UTC)