Talk:Tocharians

Genetics

Somebody suggested that "... A leading contender is the Afanasievo culture, ..." as origin of the Tocharians. To my humble knowledge this is impossible because the Afanasevo is R1b, while Xiaohe, for example is overwhelmingly R1a (Data from Quiles allancientdna). I wonder who has any genetic different evidence.HJJHolm (talk) 07:13, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Only if one assumes that the Xiaohe people were Tocharian speakers. However, the Tocharians were of a different place and time. Kanguole 07:40, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Centum/Satem map

This map is misleading. Since decennia, the centum /Satem is a feature, however not a genealogical measure for the subdivision of Indo-Europeans, but late phonological developments. See any modern textbook.2A02:8108:9640:1A68:C090:491D:7BBC:BCD7 (talk) 05:53, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Question

Where did these supposedly Tocharian samples come from? I'm just curious.

I thought that we only had DNA samples from the Tarim Mummies, who were thought to be their potential ancestors at some point, and maybe they still are thought to be so.

I asked this because I simply can't wrap my head around the depictions of them with either blond hair or red hair, while they also happen to be heavily East Eurasian on a level similar to some Turkic groups in the data seen in the article. 81.109.56.193 (talk) 23:52, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Genetic origin of Tocharians in the Tarim Basin

The current Genetics section says: "There have been two major hypothesis regarding their origin: the “Bactrian oasis hypothesis” suggesting an origin from the Oxus civilization, and the "steppe hypothese" suggesting an origin from the Afanasievo and the Andronovo populations moving from the Altai–Minusinsk regions.[139] Current DNA research suggests that the "steppe hypothese" [sic] is the most likely.[139]".

This claim is dubious, and relies on a 2009 study, whose results have been superseded. A more recent study by Zhang et al, Nature (2021) https://doi.org/10.1038/s41586-021-04052-7 clearly demonstrates that "Our results do not support previous hypotheses for the origin of the Tarim mummies, who were argued to be Proto-Tocharian-speaking pastoralists descended from the Afanasievo or to have originated among the Bactria–Margiana Archaeological Complex or Inner Asian Mountain Corridor cultures. Instead, although Tocharian may have been plausibly introduced to the Dzungarian Basin by Afanasievo migrants during the Early Bronze Age, we find that the earliest Tarim Basin cultures appear to have arisen from a genetically isolated local population"

In other words, there is some evidence of Afanasievo migrations to Dzungaria, which is north of the Tarim Basin. But there is clear evidence against a Steppe ancestry for the Tarim basin Tocharian settlers. Sridharan Devarajan (talk) 13:19, 8 June 2025 (UTC)

Template:Ping You are apparently confusing Tarim mummies and Tocharians, but they are genetically separate. The second study (2021) is about the Tarim mummies, who are unrelated to the Tocharians, and essentially have ANE ancestry. But according to both papers (2009 and 2021), the Tocharians were indeed likely derived from Afanasievo ("steppe hypothese"). पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 13:52, 8 June 2025 (UTC)