Talk:The Maple Leaf Forever

typo in anthem lyrics?

In the line "Throught icy fields and frozen bays,", should "throught" be "through"? Or is throught a word with a particular meaning? The word "throught" even occurs at [1]. Graham 06:25, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

I've been bold and changed "throught" to "through", as that seemed to make the most sense in the context, and nothing has been said here in the last three weeks. Graham 07:40, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Lyrics?

Are we sure the lyrics are correct here? Because Cape Race wasn't part of "our fair dominion" until 1949, and the song was supposedly written in the 1860s. HabsfanFile:Flag of Nova Scotia.svg|t 20:41, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Cape Race was part of Britain's Domain. The song implies the range of the British empire in Canada.PhatD 15:18, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

That seemed odd to me as well. Newfoundland did not become part of "our fair dominion" until several decades after the author's death. --Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 20:25, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

PhatD is definitely right about this; if the song meant to reference the extent of Canada at the time, it would have been "From Cape Breton to Fort William" (remembering that Rupert's Land and British Columbia weren't Canadian in 1867). --Nucleusboy 19:03, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

It seems odd to me, especially since the lyrics refer to our "Dominion", which in 1867 consisted of Ontario, Quebec, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rick.mcgeer (talk • contribs) 01:32, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

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I have no proof, but I seem to recall that the Cape Race and Nootka Sound was a later addition. It sounds as if it is: "Our fair Dominion now extends...." Sounds like an add on. 192.214.192.58 (talk) 21:23, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

I removed a reference to monarchist.ca which doesn't seem to be a very reliable source (it seems to exist only to further a political POV). Also the external links section has two mp3s of the original lyrics but none of the new lyrics, if there's a free recording of the new (CBC) version can someone please add it here? (Link if gratis, upload to Commons if libre!) 91.154.10.99 (talk) 15:17, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Michael Bublé Maple Leaf Forever Video

The referenced video is only available in the US. As this is a Wikipedia article (international), and about a Canadian cultural piece, this seems highly inappropriate. Is there a more widely viewable source? SteveMcQwark (talk) 19:56, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Alternative Lyrics

At present there is a citation needed for the statement that the alternative lyrics are controversial, the old source for that has disappeared and a check through the history shows that the link was dead which is unfortunate as it was as I recall an interesting essay, anyway perhaps this http://www.steynonline.com/content/view/3629/30 could serve as a reference to the controversial nature of the alternative lyrics? It is not really about the Maple Leaf Forever, but in the middle it does negatively refer to it, perhaps we could use it as a source until another editor has the time and inclination to find a better one?

French version

It is so surprising there is no French version of this article....WPF2008 (talk) 16:24, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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removed lyrics

Hi. I removed large chunks of lyrics at [2] and [3] because I think they were copyright violations. These versions of the lyrics were written in the last few decades, unlike the original lyrics, and I cannot find any evidence that they were released under free licences. If they are ok to include (maybe they were released in the public domain?), please revert.

Otherwise, I think there is still a problem because the old lyrics still appear in the page history. I tried to follow steps at Wikipedia:Copyright problems but it was not clear to me which set of instructions applies. Ilex verticillata (talk) 03:43, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Template:Help me-helped

(see above, especially the bit about the page history).

Ilex verticillata (talk) 03:45, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, I have redacted the offending text per WP:RD1. If you see copyright issues in the future that do not merit a full copyright investigation (such as this case), feel free to remove the content and then ask for a {{copyvio-revdel}}. If you want more help, change the {{help me-helped}} back into a {{help me}}, stop by the Teahouse, or Wikipedia's live help channel, or the help desk to ask someone for assistance. Primefac (talk) 11:01, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

"King/Queen" in lyrics

Hi Mr. @Nick Levine, I noticed that you recently reverted another user's edit, which changed the word "Queen" in the lyrics to "King" following the transition of the Crown last year. Conventionally, the lyrics do change to reflect the gender of the reigning monarch (Please see https://hymnary.org/hymn/GTS1921/page/279 and File:Maple Leaf Forever.flac). We can see that it is a common practice, similar to like God Save the King. Given this information, I do not really feel there is any need for further citations to prove the validity of the change made by the other user.

I appreciate your contributions to Wikipedia, and I hope we can spend more time considering this matter. Mosowai (talk) 00:52, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

I was just asking for a citation. If words have changed that must be on a website somewhere. Nick Levine (talk) 09:10, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Well, I would say it is more like a conventional thing. Since we now have historical documents proving that there is such a convention and the lyrics have been automatically changed during the previous transitions of Crown, we can reasonably deduce that this time should not be an exception. Mosowai (talk) 11:18, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Ok Nick Levine (talk) 13:23, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

First Performance

Per a likely reliable source over at Canadian Encyclopedia, I have removed an unsourced claim around the first performance of the song. While some newspaper articles out of Newmarket do support the claim, this seems to be in error. Kwkintegrator (talk) 21:25, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Will the real Original Lyrics please stand up

Please excuse my lengthy preamble, even though it is condensed, but I think it illustrates the misconceptions in this article and problems with sources. If you're in a hurry you can skip straight to AS WRITTEN BY ALEXANDER MUIR

I've had an interesting (both entertaining and frustrating) session with ChatGPT, exploring its composition ability via creating new lyrics to the tune of The Maple Leaf Forever. At the same time I was testing it's historical depth and interactions with a user. I went through a couple of rounds as I tried to make sense of ChatGPT's new version, being told "Try singing along with both sets of lyrics". So I asked ChatGPT for its original lyrics, for which I already had an early version. This led to the following exchange.

I asked:

What about the part after "in days of yore from Britain's shore" which goes "Wolfe the dauntless hero came and planted firm Britannia's flag on Canada's fair domain"? saying that's probably why I'm having trouble hearing your words for the same tune.

The reply:

Ah, you're referring to the version that's rooted in the 19th-century lyrics, which include references to British military heroes.

So we went at it again: "give me the entire old imperialistic version on its own followed by the new version you propose."

Got it! I’ll give you the entire original version of "The Maple Leaf Forever" with its imperialistic, 19th-century tone, followed by the reworked, modernized version I proposed.

More rubbish. Where is the part about "the thistle, shamrock, rose entwine", I asked, and got back "Ah, you are referring to the original lyrics written by Alexander Muir in 1867." (Apparently we have a different understanding of the word "original".)

The subsequent version of "original lyrics" from ChatGPT was still so wrong that I had no trouble playing the part of an apoplectic user, saying "even Wikipedia has the original lyrics, and there are several copies of sheet music from 1877 on Internet archive". I enjoyed acting a user reaction—actually it didn't require much acting—to the point that along with ChatGPT's grovelling apology came the assessment of my input as "Content removed.   This content may violate our usage policies." But I was again told "you were referring to the original 1867 version of "The Maple Leaf Forever", written by Alexander Muir". (Didn't we already agree on that?)

That brings me to chatGPT's final attempt to provide the original lyrics. By this point I had no confidence at all in its suggestions for new lyrics. "Now, let's get this right." declared ChatGPT but it still seemed rather confused because what it called Alexander Muir's 1867 Original Version of "The Maple Leaf Forever" included the first three lines of "God Save the Queen".  I don't know whether that falls under an AI hallucination or AI obsequiousness.

Presumably it seized on the words "God save our Queen", corrected them to God save our gracious Queen and headed down the wrong rabbit hole.

What does all this mean aside from the fact that Wikipedia is more reliable than ChatGPT?

AS WRITTEN BY ALEXANDER MUIR

ChatGPT eventually got one thing right where Wikipedia is wrong. The original version, by which I mean the real first version, was written during the reign of Queen Victoria. Consequently, the references to the monarch said Queen. "The Maple Leaf Forever" would have been sung using the word King upon the accession of Edward VII, and flipped back to Queen during the reign of Elizabeth II. With the accession of Charles II, it would again be sung as King, except the chance of hearing it sung is probably comparable to the performance frequency of Jimmy Crack Corn or Turkey in the Straw. Final word: if Wikipedia wants to publish "the original version", meaning "as written",  it should refer to the Queen.

Sources? At present, the sheet music at hymner.org  (https://hymnary.org/hymn/GTS1921/page/279), is clearly not THE original because it refers to "our King". Canadainfo (https://www.craigmarlatt.com/canada/symbols_facts&lists/anthems.html#mapleleaf) gets it right, publishing it with Queen. The original original, as near as we can get it easily, can be seen in the aforementioned 1877 copies of sheet music on Internet archive (https://archive.org/details/CSM_01426/page/n1/mode/1up)

Queen, King, whatever, there is more to getting it right then you might suppose. The Canadian Encyclopedia has the most in-depth information about the history of the song, though it originally came from the Encyclopedia of Music in Canada.

The original edition (reprinted in The Canadian Musical Heritage/ Le Patrimoine musical canadien vol. 3)

Muir was interested in submitting a poem to the patriotic poetry contest of the Caledonian Society of Montréal

The Maple Leaf Forever came second. If Wikipedia can find out which poem was the winning entry, you will have scooped the Canadian Encyclopedia.

Library and Archives Canada holds a copy of the first printed version, believed to be from 1868, which has handwritten revisions by Muir himself. He changed his original "The Maple Leaf, the Maple Leaf, the Maple Leaf for ever!" to read "The Maple Leaf, our emblem dear, the Maple Leaf for ever!"

He later made small revisions, and a major one in 1894 which added a fifth stanza.

The "French version" is actually a poem written by Octave Crémaziebefore 1862 — "Salut, ô ma belle patrie!" — paired with Muir's melody in the songbook Choix de chansons.

In 1964, music publisher Thompson published "'Our Home, Our Land, Our Canada," which contained Muir's music with lyrics by Victor Cowley, who had won the Canadian Authors Association Maple Leaf song contest.

In 1997, CBC Radio held a contest to come up with more inclusive lyrics for the song. The winning submission — by Vladimir Radian

Then there are versions as sung by Anne Murray and Michael Bublé

Should Wikipedia state the lyrics as written with a note that queen/king changes with the gender of the monarch?  "by convention it is sung as queen or king according to the gender of the monarch"

Or should we Wikipedia state the lyrics as they would currently be sung, make it clear that they change, and edit the article every time the gender of the monarch changes (which based on the current line of succession won't occur isn't likely to occur for many years)?

If anyone feels like adding this history to the article, be my guest.

Humpster (talk) 01:44, 22 May 2025 (UTC)