Talk:Taiwan High Speed Rail

Core technology/system

In revision 287890573, Will74205 again removed a qualification of the THSR's Shinkansen origins as one pertaining to the core technology, citing bad grammar on my part. My grammar may be bad, but what's Shinkansen-based about the THSR is only the (majority of) the core system (main parts & basic standards for trains + track + superstructure) -- not the operation, not the business model, not specific subsystems.

As for some examples of usage with "core", I dug up a Japan Railway & Transport Review article (f.e. " Finally, the Japanese core system was selected, because the conditions proposed by the Japanese suppliers were best.", "As mentioned, although the core system is basically Japanese, a number of significant modifications have been made and some subsystems used in Europe have also been adopted.") and a Japan Times article ("Taiwan High Speed Rail in 2000 contracted Taiwan Shinkansen Engineering, a consortium of seven Japanese firms, to provide and maintain the core technology for the bullet-train network"). The article's formulation should be changed into something based on these. --Rontombontom (talk) 13:17, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't really understand what you think is the difference. "Based on" means just that: some parts, maybe even quite a few parts, may have been changed, but the core is the same. Perhaps "The THSR is technologically based on..." would be better? Jpatokal (talk) 15:35, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Awarding

Can someone cite actual sources on what arguments Taiwanese authorities used to explain why they have chosen the Japanese offer and rejected Eurotrain in the end?

One of the two reasons currently named in the article is spurious, given that (1) the loss of the contract came as a surprise for preferred bidders Eurotrain more than a year after Eschede, (2) as well known by the end of 1999, the Eschede disaster was caused by a design deficiency of ICE 1 wheels, which did not affect the ICE 2 and SNCF TGV Duplex trains forming the basis of the Eurotrain; (3) the Eschede disaster happened on a conventional line, involving a switch and a bridge with designs not present on high-speed lines. It is possible that THSRC decisionmakers did not voice their doubts to Eurotrain and were clueless about points 2 and 3, and thus that Eschede really played a role as the article currently claims; but an actual source with a reference to the Eschede disaster would be needed here as evidence. --Rontombontom (talk) 21:59, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

I have now dug up the history of the awarding controversy, resulting in a major re-work of the History and Controversy sections. (I also found the likely source of the above criticised claim: rhetoric about the Eurostar offer being "burdened by the still vivid memories" of the Eschede crash in a book written by the pro-Japanese then President eight months prior to THSRC's decision.) The latter got rather long -- maybe I should separate it out into a separate article, with a short summary in the main article? --Rontombontom (talk) 23:06, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

"Some trains will stop at no stations"

ummm... somehow I don't think this is quite correct. I assume the writer was trying to say that said trains will be direct ones with no intermediate stops. Could someone confirm this and change things accordingly? Tompw 18:48, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Cost

[1] says something about nearly 20 billion USD ... It seems to have been officially opened now. JensMueller 16:09, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

"Network"

Is one train line a "network"? JensMueller 16:10, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

It is a warp thread or a spine. Jjok 17:03, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Unclear

"It is alleged because Shinkansen have been adopting earthquake detection system called UrEDAS (Urgent Earthquake Detection and Alarm System) since 1992." Alleged usually implies a suggestion or implication that somebody has done something wrong. If the rationale for dropping ICE and going with Shinkansen technology is correct, then THSRC's decision appears to be a wise one. Another word should be used here, and the sentence is really a fragment. 4.243.206.105 22:09, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Confusing map

The map currently says "In service until 2011", which gives exactly the wrong impression: it should be (for example) "Scheduled to open by 2011". Jpatokal 05:39, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Formal opening?

When was the railway formally opened with the full operating schedule? At the same time as Taipei station? Jpatokal 13:10, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Who cares?

Currently, tickets have all the information printed on them that is needed to ride the trains, but they do not have an imprinted logo or the words "Taiwan High Speed Rail" printed on them in Chinese or English. However, this will be corrected by the HSR marketing department as soon as possible, with new HSR tickets sporting the company's logo.

Who cares whether the tickets have "Taiwan High Speed Rail" printed on them in Chinese, English, or anything else? In the unlikely event it does matter, the statement should be sourced. 4.243.227.165 00:33, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Removed. Jpatokal 05:20, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Taoyuan airport link

"Some of the same Japanese companies won another project in December 2005 to build a high speed rail link to Taiwan Taoyuan International Airport, with the exception of the signaling system which has been awarded to Westinghouse Rail Systems."

Any info about the schedule? I saw a construction fence and a sign mentioning some government authority on Taoyuan airport last Sunday. --141.3.48.218 (talk) 12:17, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

It mentioned "Director General of Bureau of Taiwan High Speed Rail of the Ministry of Transportation and Communications", so it might also be related to the MRT system. --141.3.48.218 (talk) 12:18, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Clicky clicky -- this is already linked in from the article: Taoyuan International Airport Access MRT System Jpatokal (talk) 03:15, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Table cleanup

The timetable/trains per day, ridership, and revenue tables are starting to get to be too much. I propose reducing them down to per year (instead of per month). Not sure how that will work with the timetable/trains per day table, but it shouldn't be a problem for the other two. -Multivariable (talk) 13:15, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Methinks if a reader wants to see the trends, at least for ridership, it's too early for going to years. But, maybe the table could be replaced by a diagram. --Rontombontom (talk) 21:38, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I guess ridership would be fine to keep, but trends for revenue don't really add much at a monthly level unless it's compared to ridership somehow. The trains per day table, though, could definitely be converted into a diagram since the dates aren't evenly spaced anyway. -Multivariable (talk) 21:56, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I have now created a THSRC ridership.png and a THSRC ridership daily.png diagram, and moved the monthly ridership table to the sources section on those two pages. I can update the diagrams every month. I embedded only the second in the article, and condensed the annual data into a table. I also converted the paragraph on ridership landmarks (10 millionth... 100 millionth) into a table.

I also improved the Revenue section text, and added the annual balance sheets (based on the annual reports themselves rather than secondary news reports). After much thinking, I removed the monthly revenues table, which, for the record, I reproduce below in its final form without edits:

	2007	2008	2009	2010
January	NT$ 599.263 million	NT$1,550.991 million	NT$2,230.886 million	NT$2,060.422 million
February	NT$ 669.273 million	NT$1,728.569 million	NT$1,735.106 million	NT$2,328.338 million
March	NT$867.659 million	NT$1,903.876 million	NT$1,908.816 million	NT$2,015.350 million
April	NT$1,030.259 million	NT$2,100 million	NT$1,856.083 million	NT$2,213.826 million
May	NT$1,078.242 million	NT$1,903.502 million	NT$2,040.365 million
June	NT$1,135.954 million	NT$1,875.924 million	NT$1,736.616 million
July	NT$1,282.161 million	NT$2,038.358 million	NT$2,091,261 million
August	NT$1,259.984 million	NT$2,168.552 million	NT$1,841.884 million
September	NT$1,268.284 million	NT$1,816.059 million	NT$1,718.129 million
October	NT$1,320.430 million	NT$2,109.892 million	NT$2,024.968 million
November	NT$1,413.973 million	NT$2,028.733 million	NT$2,029.018 million
December	NT$1,578.305 million	NT$1,991.578 million	NT$2,110.578 million
Total	NT$13.96924 billion	NT$23.047583 billion	NT$23.323710 billion

My rationales for removal: on one hand, as Multivariable wrote, it was getting too much and added little. On the other hand, whoever it was who kept adding the data, usually did so without giving a source. What's more, I hazard to guess that the source was the one given for January 2010, a site with financial reports of corporations; but that site doesn't seem to include data on THSRC anymore (the possible reason the table wasn't updated beyond April). --Rontombontom (talk) 22:16, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time and effort to clean up the tables and creating graphs. It's a lot less cluttered now; great work! -Multivariable (talk) 17:02, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

<bows> I forgot to note: I don't think that converting the trains per day table into a diagram would be a good idea. Such a diagram would strongly suggest a constant level, whereas the numbers shown are the maximums on a normal week. --Rontombontom (talk) 23:02, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

While I was hunting for replacements for dead links, I decided to assemble a more thorough train frequency table, and use the data to create a proper train frequency diagram after all -- now included in the article. I of course migrated the table to the diagram's Commons page, and put a much shorter table in its place in the article. As for lesser cleanups, there is one point I wasn't sure about: is the time format in "6:00 AM to 12:00 midnight" acceptable? That format is neither the one used in the source article, nor one in line with UIC convention and THSRC usage (which would be 06:00 to 24:00). --Rontombontom (talk) 14:25, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

"12 midnight" make sense, but I think "12 AM" or "24:00" is more proper. Even just "midnight" is better, imo. Plus, the latter ones take up less space. :) -Multivariable (talk) 16:12, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Technical issues, incidents and accidents

In an edit war over at the Korea Train Express page, the lack of a section in the THSR article as per above was noted. Irrespective of the fact that this is no argument in that debate, it just happens that I was mulling over creating such a section, on the occasion of the switch troubles in August and the derailment and ensuing early warning system controversy after the earthquake in March this year. But, listing just these two would likely be an incomplete list; so, does anyone have sources on eventual earlier accidents or technical issues? --Rontombontom (talk) 10:56, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

I think You should inserted Technical issues, incidents and accidents at Taiwan High Speed Rail page. Ssyublyn (talk) 11:00, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Here is the intersting source.

"The system has become so complex that the leader of Taiwan’s consumer movement is calling for citizens to boycott it entirely until extensive safety data is released. “Cherish your life, don’t be a guinea pig,” Cheng Jen-hung, the chairman of the Consumers’ Foundation, said in an interview, repeating his group’s slogan. With 900 passengers on a fully loaded train, he warned, “if there is an accident, there will be very heavy casualties."[2] Why this kind of technical issue is not included in here? Ssyublyn (talk) 11:03, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Because Mr Cheng is stating the obvious, and because such an accident has not actually happened yet? Jpatokal (talk) 11:46, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

It's not even obvious: for example, from what I know, all high-speed train derailments on actual high-speed rail lines were accidents with zero fatalities. Trains aren't airplanes. Other than that, Mr. Cheng doesn't make any technical argument, and the appeal to the number of passengers applies to any other transport vehicle with the same number of passengers (including KTX trains).

What I ask for is specific accidents or incidents (best a list or statistics), if anyone saw such. --Rontombontom (talk) 12:13, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

(going way offtopic, but) Alas, not all high-speed accidents have had zero fatalities, the most notable case being the Eschede train disaster.

But I'd say plunge forward and add the section, people will add to it if anything important is missing. Jpatokal (talk) 13:02, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

The famous Eschede disaster happened at just 200 km/h on an upgraded conventional line, and that detail was critical: the wheel broke and the bogie derailed 5 km before the accident, but nothing much happened until it hit an old switch not replaced by one according to high-speed standards (with nothing to get stuck in), throwing the train into the pylons of a bridge that was again not rebuilt according to high-speed line standards (with no pier between the tracks). That's precisely why I used the "on actual high-speed rail lines" qualifier. (The 1997 derailment of a Pendolino at Piacenza, Italy is a similar story, by the way.) In fact it's not just derailments: collisions and bombings of high-speed trains with fatalities occurred on conventional lines without exception, too.

Regarding the THSR, I remembered since a third issue, that of subsistence of bridge pylons. I'll gather the sources and write the new section sometime over the weekend (probably only on Sunday). --Rontombontom (talk) 20:47, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

I have now created the section in question, and remembered/found two more issues. Regarding user Ssyublyn's reference: this appears to be related to the dispute in late 2006 regarding 33 construction deficiencies claimed by an inspector group, and is already referred to in the article. I also recalled that there was some dispute regarding soil vibrations near an urban area, but don't remember if this was in the construction phase or after, and haven't found a source yet -- anyone else? --Rontombontom (talk) 14:52, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Overtaken

Very minor language question just for my education, but what would be the correct English here? "Overtaken" was in the (English-language) source and also appears here (used by a doctor), but I guess "overdosed" would be better? --Rontombontom (talk) 21:18, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

"Overdosed" would imply taking (way) too much of something and getting poisoned/killed by it, which doesn't seem to be the case here, so simply "had taken sleeping pills" sounds fine. However, saying "the driver became dysfunctional" is quite odd, what were the exact symptoms? Jpatokal (talk) 22:06, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Sorry for changing that without more discussion. According to the source, [3] the wording was that he became "temporarily dysfunctional" and that the driver had been taking "non-prescription sleeping pills". I don't know if there's a better way to put it, since the source does not give us any more information on the condition of the driver. -Multivariable (talk) 22:36, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

No problem about changing without more discussion, it's just that English is not my first language and I like to learn :-)

The "was found to have overtaken sleeping pills" expression appears in the second source. Regarding "temporarily dysfunctional", the first source (which is newer) uses it to negate earlier media reports about the driver having fallen asleep, and the authority considers it an even more serious breach. While the first link doesn't give any details, and the second still said "dozed off", the actual details in the second are unresponsiveness (he spaced out) and slow reaction time.

Maybe we should put "temporarily dysfunctional" in scare quotes. --Rontombontom (talk) 05:32, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Major revision of structuring, History, Controversy and Construction sections

Prompted by the dead link galore following major source Taiwan Times's recent website re-design, and my search for sources on a vibrations issue mentioned above, I also implemented a revision of the article which I planned for over a year. As it is quite major, I thought I should detail the reasons and some of my choices on sources and content here rather than just in edit summaries.

• I felt that the Eurotrain/awarding part of the Controversy section (which was largely my addition) ended up too long in comparison to other issues, yet still lacked many details. So I shortened it, and created the new Eurotrain article, where I covered the issue more elaborately.

• The rest of the Controversy section was all over the place. I tried to group the material thematically rather than chronologically, and complement it with a lot more sources.

• I also thought for long that the article over-emphasizes the Shinkansen origins, given the domestic input and Eurotrain legacies (also see Core technology/system). In the sources I dug up now, I found that the mixing of technologies extended even to the core system, and that this has been reason for considerable friction between THSRC and TSC, with just the TSC side and Japanese media being explicit about and emphasizing the integration of Japanese and European technologies, as a reason for conflict and delays.

• The articles about the conflict between THSRC and TSC regarding technology integration consistently report that TSC raised safety concerns as argument. Now TSC can hardly be considered an objective source, given that the technology mix affected its commercial interests negatively and the fact that the same technologies were then mixed with no qualms in China; but I thought it's worth to include this in the Controversy section, and more explicitly in the earthquake issue (see below).

• The unsourced sentence about the UrEDAS earthquake early warning system was also bugging me for long, because I couldn't find any source mentioning its use in THSR. But the February earthquake 'did me a favour' in generating lots of English-language media coverage of the issue, with sources explicitly saying that THSR does not have an earthquake early warning system, only a simple detection system that's not even a design of earthquake-experienced Japanese manufacturers, which some (including experts) criticised as a deficiency. (I also made some readup on the technical issues behind the debate on whether installing UrEDAS would make sense. If anyone is interested, it appears that the original system brings insignificant time savings if the quake occurs close to the line and close to the surface; as common in Taiwan and as happened when a quake derailed a train on the Joetsu Shinkansen - see f.e. SHATTERED BELIEF: Biting the bullet - and THSRC was looking for a more advanced system, something into which research is on-going in Japan. I realise however that including this in the article would be WP:OR.)

• The original article included this: "Critics pointed out that the total cost had exceeded $15 billion, or about $650 for every person in Taiwan." Without comparing it to some original costs, and without explaining why cost per person in Taiwan is relevant (the $15 billion aren't tax dollars), this doesn't make any sense; what's more, I find that this was a mis-statement of the source, where the numbers came up in a much more ominous context. So I cut this down and covered the change of cost estimates with better sources.

• I'm not sure what to make of the New York Times quote on energy usage. Where is the controversy? Maybe this part lost its context in some edit in the past? And is a long inline quote fine with current Wikipedia policy? The points made are certainly worth to include, but maybe elsewhere and maybe in a different form. I left it untouched for now.

• I also deleted a paragraph about the airport link: methinks the list of suppliers of another project are irrelevant here. However, I wouldn't be against re-inserting the airport link elsewhere in the article, and mentioning the shared suppliers, if a source establishes some connection in operation or ownership.

I hope other editors are fine with the new version and that these explanations are sufficient. --Rontombontom (talk) 09:24, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

More major edits: move and improvement of the track map, branching out the Costs & financing resp. Management sub-sections, condensation of the Stations section. I also corrected my misinterpretation of the source on costs in an earlier edit, completed the picture on finances, and added the "fat cats" controversy. Still want to do: a new Operation/Tickets sub-section, importing what I can from the Chinese version of the article. --Rontombontom (talk) 23:01, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Good article?

With the tickets section, I have now completed all the major additions/improvements I planned. I also asked the creator of the map on his Wikimedia Commons user page to update it. Once that's done, I'd add a WP:GA nomination. --Rontombontom (talk) 10:23, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Same data in text, diagrams and tables

When some data is shown on a diagram or displayed in a table, are rounded figures or even just a qualitative description of a trend (if there is one) not enough in the text? I ask because of the seat occupation data: first, there is no trend, second, the spread of the values is less than three percentage points, that's not too noteworthy a variation; third, these changes of percentage point magnitude are discussed with a precision of a hundredth percentage point. IMO "Seat occupation is around 45%" (and "over 99% of trains are on time") would be enough in the text part. --Rontombontom (talk) 08:41, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

I apologize, some of this was my doing. I was trying to re-work a part of a sentence (that was left over after adding in more material to part of the sentence) back into the original paragraph. I agree, some indication (trends, description) in the text should be fine. Any more would defeat the purpose of the table/figure. -Multivariable (talk) 08:48, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

No prob, and I ask in general, because there are other tables and diagrams where I wasn't sure that the text next to it is sufficient or overdone. Some language questions. In the Stations section, there are the two branchlines built for the connection of exurban stations with downtown areas: I think "in Tainan" would be wrong as the station is exurban, and you left "for Hsinchu" for the other unchanged? Also, I ask for future reference, what is the singular/plural rule behind "depreciation and interest was equal to..."? What about "cash expenses" -- when can it be treated as singular (I realise my present edit now treats it both as plural and as singular)?

In general, how do you like the new version of the Revenues and costs section, especially from the viewpoint of readability? I found the rewording request from the GA reviewers most difficult to comply with, and Jpatokal's comment about "gobble-de-gook" and describing "cash-flow break-even level excluding depreciation" differently was exactly how I felt, but I tried my best. --Rontombontom (talk) 11:28, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Well, Tainan City and Tainan County recently merged into one entity, so "in Tainan" should be fine now. I think it would be fine to mention Hsinchu as exurban, since it really is kind of out there. Is "depreciation and interest" a single term? I think for that sentence, "depreciation and interest were 95% of THSRC's accumulated debt." should be fine. "Cash expense" (singular) makes it sound like it was a single expenditure, when I'm sure it wasn't. Then again, I have no financial background so this is just speaking from a layperson's point of view.

I think the Revenues and costs section looks good, but I have no financial background. It did take me a while to get through some of the jargon, but those are necessary in the context of the section. The wikilinking definitely helps! I'll take a look at it again, and see if I can make it more readable, though I do appreciate your effort in improving this article. (On a side note, I need to apologize for the references fiasco a while back. I didn't realize it until I was looking back on the Discussion just now). -Multivariable (talk) 16:56, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Regarding depreciation and interest, above I actually managed to confuse the original ("was 95%", singular) and your correction ("were 95%", plural). But the fine point of the English language I am uncertain about here is whether either version of the sentence can be misread as pertaining to depreciation and interest each. If so, perhaps "the sum of depreciation and interest was 95%..." is best?

On "cash expenses", I wasn't clear: putting that in plural is OK with me, but it is (presently) followed by "(which exclude depreciation)" (I changed this to plural) and then "both" (referring to revenue and cash expenses, treating the latter as a single entity). So what I really should have asked, is "both" okay in English when one of the two subjects is in singular and the other in plural? --Rontombontom (talk) 19:39, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

I would have assumed it was the sum of both without it, but from the context it should be clear that 95% is for the combined total. "Both" is fine in English when you have both a singular and a plural term (e.g. "Both he and his friends..."). -Multivariable (talk) 19:54, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

I just went over the section to try to make some readability adjustments. I re-worded some sentences, put certain terms in parenthesis rather than by commas, etc. I had a quick question: is "BOT franchise" the same as "BOT contract"? The term is unfamiliar to me, so I was wondering if it was a commonly-used phrase. -Multivariable (talk) 18:52, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

In this context, franchise means the license to run public transport for a specific amount of time, given by the state to a private company. So one could say that the BOT franchise is the subject of a BOT contract. But I'd have to look whether the two are interchangeable and/or the proper one was picked where and when they are used in the article. --Rontombontom (talk) 19:39, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the new re-wordings, two issues. In the first sentence, I meant to say that both growth in the first three years and the staying behind expectations were developments following similar developments in ridership -- perhaps moving the phrase back in your version would work? "Thus revenues grew over the first three years but stayed below expectations along with ridership." The other issue is: your version says "THSRC posted its first operating profit in 2009", but isn't it the case that we are talking about numbers posted for the year 2009, which were actually posted in 2010? (That's why I thought "for 2009" is correct.) --Rontombontom (talk) 19:53, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay. Perhaps, "Thus revenues grew along with ridership over the first three years but both remained below expectations."? I feel like with the wording you suggested, "along with ridership" is just kind of tacked on instead of incorporated into the sentence. I see what you mean by the "posted in 2009" wording. Using "posted for 2009" should be fine, though maybe going along with the source wording and saying "THSRC generated its first operating profit in 2009..." might be clearer. Thoughts? -Multivariable (talk) 01:40, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Template:OutdentSorry to go on about nuances upon nuances :-) On the revenues/ridership thing, your newest version sounds good, and I get you about tagged on; but its second half dublicates a point of the forecast/ridership sections rather than expressing that the same pattern for revenues is a consequence. What about: "Thus revenues grew along with ridership over the first three years but also followed them in remaining below expectations". On the for/in 2009 issue, my problem with the formulation in the source is that I feel "generated" alludes to activities, whereas the positive change was mostly the result of a change in accounting (first part of the sentence in our article) -- or do you think "generated" does go along with the first part of the sentence? --Rontombontom (talk) 09:33, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

I think it's great that we're at the point where we can discuss nuances upon nuances. :) I think what you suggested for the revenues/ridership sentence should be fine. Ah, I didn't realize you were trying to emphasize the change in accounting method. Perhaps the original "for 2009" would work better then. I'll go ahead and make those changes. -Multivariable (talk) 20:48, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

It's done then :-) By the way, if you speak Chinese, can you look at this (bottom of page)? --Rontombontom (talk) 21:30, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I speak some Chinese but am not a native speaker. I went ahead and responded over there, but I'll include my response here: I think it should be (literally) "Variable voltage variable frequency (VVVF) control with synchronous driver motor" for the first part (though just "variable frequency" should be fine). The second part looks fine ("The power of the entire train is 10,260 kW"). -Multivariable (talk) 02:39, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks! So I didn't mis-translate... which means that my original problem persists: the claim in the quote (that the 700T trains have synchronous motors) is doubtful, because all related Japanese Shinkansen have asynchronous induction motors. However, I couldn't find a single other reliable source. (The Chinese and Japanese Wikis do say asynchronous induction motor, but without a source or the motor type designation.) --Rontombontom (talk) 06:39, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I would agree that the claim for synchronous motors is doubtful, especially if the Shinkansen doesn't even have it. If you don't feel a source is reliable (WP:RS), then it should be fine to leave it out until another source can be found. Let me know if there's anything else I can help look over, or if there are any sections you think need to be expanded or researched more. -Multivariable (talk) 08:46, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

The type of motor is the sole significant data I'd like to ascertain. Other than that, maybe an update on what's up with the Kaohsiung Station and Xizhi Depot plans.

Good you have spotted that 6250/6450 typo of mine, from three months ago... By the way, can you access the JRTR website? I can't -- I hope it's not down permanently, because the article used as source is not archived on archive.org (I only found a copy here). --Rontombontom (talk) 10:11, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

No problem accessing the JRTR site here; just a little slow. I'll download a copy in case, though. I'll look into the motors more, though I did find some info on Kaohsiung Station. Currently, construction is going on to move all railways within the city underground. The TRA tracks are being moved underground between Xinzuoying (THSR Zuoying) and Kaohsiung Station (zh:高雄市區鐵路地下化計畫). I'm sure I heard last year that construction had officially started, but it may have only been for the TRA section (even though they're supposedly running parallel). [4] While we're at it, I also found an older source (from 2007) about a proposal to extend the HSR line down to Pingtung, but I doubt that's going anywhere. [5] -Multivariable (talk) 17:02, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Re jrtr, maybe it's an error of my DNS server. At any rate, I could archive it on the free archiving site WebCite, and will soon put it as archiveurl into the citation in the Wiki articles. --Rontombontom (talk) 19:16, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

BTW, everyone go check Talk:Taiwan High Speed 700T train for a re-naming proposal. --Rontombontom (talk) 19:43, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Continental Engineering Corporation

I undid an edit claiming that Continental Engineering Corporation was the primary company involved in construction, noting that it's unsourced in the edit summary. In addition, I think it's plain wrong. CEC was part of the consortia for C260 and C270 only -- check a list of contractors on page 3 here; a number of other companies had (at least) two contracts, too. (And I would not see the point to list them all.) --Rontombontom (talk) 23:43, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

From what I've gathered, in addition to C260 and C270 (which you mentioned), they also had a role in C250 and C295. [6] However, I agree, calling them the "primary company" is pushing it. -Multivariable (talk) 00:30, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Ah yes, those are station contracts, marked S (S250 and S295). There is another company (Evergreen) with two (open line) civil works and two station contracts in the complete list of construction contractors I found in this annual report. --Rontombontom (talk) 13:49, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Before FAC nomination

Wikipedia:Peer review/Taiwan High Speed Rail/archive1 attracted three reviewers, two with single comments and one with a more thorough review. Earlier this month I went through and applied all their points. The peer review bot just auto-archived the PR page after the period of two weeks of inactivity. Yesterday and today, Multivariable completed the Construction section with nice additions on stations and earthquake mitigation. In place of another addition he had in mind, I created a separate article, Taipei Railway Underground Project, and wikilinked it from here—I'd very much welcome corrections/copyedits/enhancements of that article, and its integration with other TRA or Taipei public transport related articles, BTW. In the THSR article, I suggest additions in one more field: photos of infrastructure.

We have a photo showing Japanese slab track and a tunnel portal. IMHO another showing a viaduct would be nice. This one is the only proper train-on-viaduct photo with no copyright problems Multivariable and I found, and the shot could connect to the text of the "Civil works" section perfectly: it shows the end of that 157 km continuous elevated section. However, the original photo is of bad quality. The current version is my edit (I rotated, cropped and brightened it), but if you have Photoshop and/or better than bare basic photo editing skills, please do another attempt. In addition, I think another photo showing station architecture could be added in the "Stations" section—there is a great selection of photos in Commons, including some by fellow editors of the article, so I'd leave the selection to others.

I will surely edit the financial parts of the article in a few days or weeks, once THSRC releases its 2010 Annual Report, but I think FAC nomination doesn't have to wait for that. --Rontombontom (talk) 10:40, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

I already started incorporating the Taipei Underground Railway Project article into existing articles and will continue to do that when I'm bored. :) The current viaduct photo may be sufficient for a thumbnail in the article, though I agree, a better quality photo should be found. In terms of station photos, I feel like Hsinchu Station's architecture would be worth noting (with Taoyuan and Taichung as secondary choices), though I'm not a huge fan of the currently available photos. I do think that the station interiors are well-done, so showing those as opposed to exterior shots would work (Here, I'm thinking any of them - Taichung, Zuoying, Chiayi, Tainan, etc.).

Regarding the rolling stock photo, I'm actually a bigger fan of this one [7], though the resolution is a bit small. -Multivariable (talk) 11:32, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Regarding Hsinchu Station exterior shots, I like this one most, though there is a lack of contrast between the roof and the sky and a lack of feel of a third dimension—is that what you mean by "I'm not a huge fan of the currently available photos"?

Regarding interior shots, I'd really leave picking a candidate to others.

Regarding the rolling stock photo, the one you propose is nice even if small. However, my problem is that it is a station-and-rolling-stock photo, but not the best for either purpose (not much of the station is visible, the platform covers the underframe of one train, the others' is in the shadows). The current one is not too good, I agree -- what about this, a depot photo with a visible wheel? --Rontombontom (talk) 13:12, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes, that's what I meant. Unfortunately, I don't feel any of the photos really capture the architecture of the station. I think the current rolling stock photo should be fine; I don't know if a depot photo is more or less relevant than a station photo, and it also shows even less of the train length than the previous photo. XD No problem on leaving photo choices to others! -Multivariable (talk) 19:50, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

I mean picking a photo for inclusion in the article collectively in a discussion here is one thing, but I don't feel qualified to even pick a candidate for such discussion in that field (station interior shot). Regarding train length, I think the track/tunnel (and viaduct) photo(s) already show that, so I thought that the rolling stock photo could add something by being more "technical" and "detail". --Rontombontom (talk) 22:07, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

I see what you mean now, with regards to the rolling stock. Since there is already a photo of the train during a trial run, I can see why a depot photo wouldn't be out of place. Regarding a station interior shot, I actually had a few in mind (since I had to go through them when I expanded the station pages). [8][9][10][11] Likewise, there may be more photos available on Flikr that satisfy the criteria for Wikimedia Commons. Personally, I think station interior shots should show the architecture as well as people. Lighting/framing are also important.

I also realized that the article lacks a platform-level photo. Two possible candidates I found: [12] [13] Thoughts? -Multivariable (talk) 22:37, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Of all the photos, with the points you made, the best theme would be the last one: platform shot, people, station roof architecture. If only it wouldn't be so bleached... Of the other photos, I like just the two Zuoying Station photos you made best (I checked all of them in thumbnail version, too). Looking why, I realise the concourse photo really captures everything about a "station concourse": roof architecture, floor, banks, people, food stand, information table, station clock. The platform photo just looks good.

If you mean to include both, the question is: where would you put the platform photo? There is one photo-free section where I can see a platform photo as on-topic, albeit one from Taipei or Banciao: Controversy > Design and implementation. (Didn't you have some night shots from there?) --Rontombontom (talk) 13:00, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Hmmm... you're right about where to put a second one. I guess (deep down) I thought it was a pity there weren't any station photos in the main article. Since the Taipei and Banciao stations are underground, they're not nearly as photogenic as any of the others ones, unfortunately. If we can only put one of the two Zuoying photos of mine you mentioned, I would probably pick the concourse one, since we already have quite a few train shots.

A quick question: under "Operations", should the standard car photo and the GPS navigation cellphone photo be switched? The "Services" section is the one that talks about train speed, while the "Tickets and fares" talks about Standard/Business cars.

And no, I do not believe I took any night photos (my camera isn't quite cut out for that). :( -Multivariable (talk) 23:00, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

I should have announced the reason here when I moved the GPS navigation cellphone photo to tickets: it was because of the ticket in the photo; I thought it's the most interesting "ticket" photo around. Maybe more emphasis should be put on the ticket in the caption? Regarding the interior photo, Standard/Business Cars are first mentioned in the last sentence of Services. --Rontombontom (talk) 07:39, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

More station/platform photo candidates

File:Day 4 the wake.jpg

Taichung platform photo

• I imported another Taichung platform photo from Flickr, which looks well-composed, special due to morning lights, shows roof architecture, platform, info tables and people.
• I mixed up stuff regarding night photos above; the Taipei platform photos and night photos from elsewhere I remembered weren't yours on Commons but were on Flickr, in this album of 22 shots. This one is IMHO particularly interesting, the negative in terms of the aspects raised for station interior photos is that few people are visible.

What do you think of the above? --Rontombontom (talk) 09:53, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Didn't realize I hadn't replied to this yet. The first Taichung station platform photo looks good at normal size, but I'm concerned the details won't be as clear as a thumbnail. I actually like the night photos at Tainan Station. For the first one, I like it a lot. (The comments actually consist of someone asking the author if they can use the photos, with the author asking "for what purpose?" while saying that he usually doesn't turn down offers.) The second photo of the station just look gorgeous, albeit with a little lens bending. :) Although few people are visible, there not necessarily a sense of emptiness which usually comes with it, which is a plus. -Multivariable (talk) 01:58, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

(Still brainstorming)

On the Taichung morning photo; I checked the thumbnail look, and due to its portrait orientation, IMHO it displays big enough to show details. I now embedded it above for illustration.

Regarding the night photos, which did you refer to as "the first one"? The platform photo I linked to or the first concourse photo in the album (the one made next to the top of the escalator)?

By the way, I forgot to mention: I originally went to Flickr thinking that if it is possible to make a platform photo on the THSR platforms at Taipei or Banciao with a TRA train visible in the background, that would be the most fitting illustration in the Controversy section; but no luck finding such a photo. --Rontombontom (talk) 09:24, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

I think the Taichung photo could work if other candidates aren't suitable. Regarding the Tainan Station photos, I meant the platform photo, but the concourse photo looks pretty good (if a little warped). For a photo of both TRA and THSR trains, I think it would be tough to come by even if you tried. The platform layout (at least at Taipei Station) makes it difficult to see past the train that's currently on the platform, though if you look really hard through train windows, you can probably tell. I think the best chance of a shot like the one you mentioned would have to be when one of the trains is entering the station while the other is already parked. -Multivariable (talk) 12:33, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Map placement dilemma

Currently, we have the geographic map in the infobox in hidden state, and the track map in the "Construction" section in default display. There is no guideline on this I can find, but from what I saw in other articles, our layout is not common: if there are both kinds of maps, usually, the track map is hidden in the infobox (indeed Template:Infobox rail line makes special mention of route maps), and the geographic map is somewhere in the first sections as larger than thumbnail size image. If we'd followed that, the geographic map could be placed right at the beginning in the "Origins" section. Then, we could also move all (ands any number of) viaduct-station-tunnel/track photos to the right, and they wouldn't potentially mess with section titles for viewers who set wide screens and small fonts.

On the other hand, what I like about the current layout is that one can look up the relative location of all sections, stations and superstructures mentioned in the "Construction" section just by glancing right. And the geographic map doesn't add much in the way of localisation to "runs along the west coast of Taiwan" in the intro sentence.

Any other opinions in this matter? --Rontombontom (talk) 09:53, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

I also like the track map a lot, but there's no doubt it takes up a lot of space. In my opinion, the geographic map is great, but as you said, since this is a single high speed rail line, there's not really that much that can be gained by looking at it. I wonder what others think about this? -Multivariable (talk) 02:18, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Viaduct photo

File:Taiwan-Shinkansen.jpg

Northern end of THSR's elevated section

I asked someone with better photo editing skills than mine to make another go at improving the only free image suitable as illustration, the result is to the right.

The photo was made at the Railway to Galaxy restaurant near Shetou Tonwship in Changhua County (No. 27之1號, 後路巷, 社頭鄉 彰化縣, Taiwan 511), so if any Wikipedian happens to be in the vicinity in good weather in the morning hours with a camera, it's the perfect location... --Rontombontom (talk) 16:13, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Re-wording the third para of the lede

A copyeditor made this of the third paragraph of the lede (minus last sentence):

The above certainly had a better flow than the original, however, the more I looked at it, the more problems I saw in terms of logic and deviation in meaning from what is summarized. I couldn't think of an easy way to edit it, so I gave up on that and mostly restored the original. For the case anyone takes a stab at another copyedit, to avoid the same meaning-changing problems, I list the main ones I saw with the above:

• The first sentence says "due" twice, and disrupts the connection between the financial structure and the high depreciation charges and interest (the latter as consequence of the first).
• The wording "involved in raising private capital" is too uncertain, and I think it can be misread as referring to merely getting the money from investors, whereas the original meaning was a circumscription of BOT (Build-Operate-Transfer), in which the terms set for operating the line (e.g. for how many years) also count.
• "These" in "these financial problems were addressed" refers to both epreciation charges and interest, thus putting the refinancing into a separate sentence breaks the connection. (In the present version, I removed the year of the refinance deal and dated the government takeover rather than the change on depreciation to 2009.)
• What changed wasn't how the construction costs were calculated, but how they were accounted for later in the annual financial reports, that is, how it was cut into tranches to be balanced against annual operating income—that's depreciation.

I also note that in the GA reviews of the article, the wikilinking of the financial terms was strongly suggested, and they are indeed less commonplace terms than say "viaduct", so I kept the wikilinking here. --Rontombontom (talk) 09:54, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for outlining the original intents of the paragraph so that future editors can keep them in mind! -Multivariable (talk) 12:31, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

I wondered why the article suddenly gets copyeditors; turns out blocked user Perseus saw the above FAC discussion and made a request. That's good for the article, especially as the current ce seems to deal with my words-to-watch fears; but I'm not sure where and how to discuss reasons for editing ce edits with the Guild of Copy Editors editors, so I just continue to comment it here.

Regarding wikilinking odd numbers: this was wikilinked after it proved ambiguous in PR, with a reviewer reading "odd" in the sense "weird". A re-phrase instead? "Odd-numbered train number" would be correct—but repetitive?

Regarding wikilinking unions: when I see "union" without "trade", I tend to think of unions like the Soviet Union, so I felt "rail union" is ambiguous too, but I may be completely mistaken (English is not my first language). --Rontombontom (talk) 23:26, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

At least in America, "union" usually refers to "trade unions" or some unspecified association of individuals/groups/companies. -Multivariable (talk) 23:56, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Rail union in the UK English can only mean a trade union - I delinked it because the average reader would know what it means. I have no objection if it goes back in, it's a minor issue ► Philg88 ◄ ^talk 01:27, Thursday March 10, 2011 (UTC) 01:27, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

I de-linked it too, as the meaning is common knowledge. I also de-linked the more common financial terms. I thought "odd numbers" and "even numbers" were pretty commonplace concepts as well. By the way, links should occur once in the lead and once in the body of the article. Therefore some terms will be linked twice. In an extremely long article, some terms will be linked again near the end. I am going to carry on with the copy edits now, so if you have any questions as to my rationale for any edits, please post them here. --Diannaa ^(Talk) 02:43, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback! On unions, I see and submit I was completely mistaken. Regarding a rule on wikilinking in the lead and the body, where is that prescribed or (if implicit) how does it follow from the rules? Currently WP:REPEATLINK states:

Template:Quotation

The specific repeat-link I removed was right at the start of the body, so I thought 'long way from the first occurence' didn't apply. It's a long lede, though, did you count that as 'long way'? --Rontombontom (talk) 10:36, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

I am giving you the information I have gathered from previous experience working on FA material. I see it does not actually agree with the guidelind and I had not realised that until now. --Diannaa ^(Talk) 15:31, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

However, finally etc. question

A question to Diannaa on her edits. At several places, you removed the words "however" (usually at the start of sentences) and "finally". Was this under WP:EDITORIAL? I mean this:

In one case ("THSRC declared the Eurotrain consortium its preferred bidder... However, THSRC launched a formal tender in June 1999..." in the section "Project structure"), I reverted as I'm quite certain that the relationship exists, after all, the subject of the preferred biddership and the tender were the same, and the legal consequences are described later in a whole paragraph (and in even more detail in a wikilinked main article). But I ask about two of the others.

• In the part on driver inspections, would a "however" require a source stating that the ministry explicitely termed the company's own measures insufficient?
• In the part on earthquakes and the emergency system, isn't there a clear connection, and wouldn't an undermining appropiate as the sources report an agreement of all parties that the system was insufficient (even if differing on what needs change)?

  I almost always remove the word "however", unless the stated outcome seems unexpected from the material that comes before. --Diannaa ^(Talk) 15:31, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

  I see. On that basis, I would think the earthquake one is justified: the problems aren't something expected after a warning system works. --Rontombontom (talk) 17:24, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

  Yes. --Diannaa ^(Talk) 19:37, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Regarding "finally": did you remove these because you don't think it is necessary for the text flow, or did you have some WP:OR concern in spite of the word not being listed at WP:W2W? --Rontombontom (talk) 12:20, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

This is another word I typically remove as being a little POV. --Diannaa ^(Talk) 15:31, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Officials

Also in the section on earthquakes, "state organs" changed to "officials". What was the reason? I think "officials" can be misread as including officials of operating company THSRC. --Rontombontom (talk) 12:20, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

"State organs" is simply a phrase that is never used in English. If you think "officials" is ambiguous, you should change it to "government officials". ---Diannaa ^(Talk) 15:31, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

I considered "authorities", then checked the sources again for specifics. Although the reference to experts was by the head of a government authority (BOHSR), THSRC officials are also cited (including indirectly by the head of BOHSR); so I leave it. --Rontombontom (talk) 17:18, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Colorful table

The table of fares imparts information using only color and thus will not be acceptable for the article to pass FA. WP:Access. You will have to either get rid of the color or get rid of the table. A table of fares is probably not appropriate content for an FA article per WP:IINFO. I have left the table alone as you and your FA reviewers will be the ones to make this decision. --Diannaa ^(Talk) 02:23, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

DYK... that every cell in that table is a header cell? And teh 'Train frequencies' table has extra rows and columns purely for presentational effects. Semantic mush. ;/ Damned, Gold Hat (talk) 02:41, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments! The fare table was added by someone during the GA1 review process (I realise I noted this only on the GA1 review page only). I'd rather remove the fare table. Will do so if there are no objections.

For the 'Train frequencies' table, what would be a better way of separation? --Rontombontom (talk) 06:42, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

The separation is gratuitous and only serves as an impediment to editors who might try and edit that sea of markup. Damned, Gold Hat (talk) 10:44, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

No, the separation serves to separate daily data and the corresponding sum (weekly data), resp. northbound/southbound and their sum. I now replaced these with a border parameter as in the revenues/costs table. --Rontombontom (talk) 11:41, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

See WP:Deviations, a part of the WP:MOS:

• “styles for tables and other block-level elements should be set using CSS classes, not with inline style attributes.”

It is inappropriate to snot-up tables with such non-standard markup. The look of wikitables is a site-wide convention and that's what this table should look like. Adding inline styling only serves to deviate from the site-wide look. It also amounts to an impediment to editing by editors not skilled in css markup. wiki means 'quick', as in editing is supposed to be quick (and easy), but you're pouring non-standard goop in to these tables makes them more difficult to edit.

Damned, Gold Hat (talk) 19:27, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Template:Outdent Thank you for providing the relevant guideline, but I am still not much wiser of it on how to properly edit tables, resp. what edits originated by others am I justified to remove.

First, the justification is the greater stability of site CSS and the maintenance of a uniform look, but I can't find your justification about CSS markup being unfamiliar to other users anywhere in that guideline. Indeed WP:Deviations doesn't ban CSS for uses other than tables in the accessibility guideline and even recommends it (in place of HTML), and much of Help:Table would have to be removed or complemented with strong disclaimers as currently for nested tables only; and at the tutorial Discussion page, I find just the user you refer to in an edit summary recommending inline CSS (the style="text-align:center" setting). (Also, I don't get how unfamiliar CSS code can keep other editors from editing a table. I was unfamiliar with it before I started to edit Wikipedia and this article, but that didn't prevent me from changing values or copying code for a new table row.)

Second, is there a page listing available CSS classes for Wikipedia tables? While Help:Table contains a lot of inline styling options and some style classes, I can't find a full list or link to a page with such a list on that page or WP:ACCESS or the data tables tutorial.

Third, while I do find the "gratuitous" word in the guideline (where it says deviations are acceptable "where they create a semantic distinction"), it doesn't define what counts as gratuitous, nor does it say who gets to determine what is gratuitous. Specifically:

• Is there and what is the proper way to right-align only the columns of a table with numbers in them (to the same decimal precision)?

• What about right-aligning numbers in colspan-merged columns? That was the purpose of the setting of the right padding in em units which you removed. User RexxS makes a specific recommendation for inline setting of padding in the Discussion linked above. I note that for the purposes of accessibility, for viewers with screen readers or without CSS support, this setting would not produce incomprehensible output.

• Is there and what is the proper way to set off rows (columns) containing the sum of rows (columns) before them? Help:Table at least explicitly allows different-coloured 1px solid borders.

--Rontombontom (talk) 10:31, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

The orginial article mix too much complicate, partly, old or even wrong information, which will mislead the reader. From the constructioan phase to now operation, High Speed Rail has its totally difference image in Taiwan public. If it possible, I thank this article really need rewrite again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wang0857 (talk • contribs) 10:05, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

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Mention trains "drive on the right"

Mention that unlike Taiwan Railways Administration, trains "drive on the right". And for simple stations, Platform 1 is southbound, Platform 2 is northbound. (So one supposes so are track 1 and track 2 internally named...) Jidanni (talk) 14:58, 21 October 2022 (UTC)