Talk:Stepan Bandera

Why does it say here that Bandera did not participate in the genocide against the Polish and Jewish populations?

What about the hundreds of murdered Poles and Jews in western Ukraine? Wszyscy pamiętamy! 78.109.36.45 (talk) 10:09, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

Bandera had been arrested in Krakow on June 29 1941 when the Wermacht learnt of the planned independence proclaimation. It doesn't completely absolve him of responsibility though. 2A00:23C5:11E:F901:C872:A7E4:E8F8:3932 (talk) 13:02, 8 June 2025 (UTC)

'Bandera held the antisemitic views typical of his generation.'

I find this apologist statement grotesque. It absolves him of personal responsibility by passing the buck onto wider society. 2A00:23C4:8401:1C01:4978:893B:6C8B:E558 (talk) 13:48, 31 May 2025 (UTC)beinsshepherd

I looked at the sources for that and adjusted the wording in a manner that is hopefully more precise and informative. Tristario (talk) 14:59, 31 May 2025 (UTC)

Thank you, that is an improvement. The phrase "antisemitic views typical of his generation" is rather vague. Mellk (talk) 18:58, 31 May 2025 (UTC)

I think this is fixed in my proposed edit below. 2A00:23C5:11E:F901:C872:A7E4:E8F8:3932 (talk) 22:38, 8 June 2025 (UTC)

POV pushing and proposed edit

"Little tolerance" for Jews and Poles should not be the first thing people read about Bandera's views on these groups, it's simply whitewashing and euphemistic. Though it's important to qualify that these ethnicities were rhetorically cast as 'occupiers' rather than racial inferiors, Bandera's rhetoric openly promoted and propagandised violence and ethnic cleansing against them.

Absolving Bandera of all responsibility because he was imprisoned in Sachsenhausen at the time is unfortunately an apologist's stance and to have the content of his rhetoric absent from a section on his views is a serious omission. 2A00:23C5:11E:F901:C872:A7E4:E8F8:3932 (talk) 14:08, 8 June 2025 (UTC)

Rossolinksi-Liebbe G. "Bandera, Genocide, and Justice: Was Stepan Bandera Responsible for Crimes Committed by the OUN and the UPA?". Yad Vashem Studies. 51 (1): 89–117. 2023. (I'm aware that this is also one POV). 2A00:23C5:11E:F901:C872:A7E4:E8F8:3932 (talk) 14:10, 8 June 2025 (UTC)

Proposed edit (I'm unable to):

Though not directly responsible for the 1941 Lviv pogroms or the 1943 Galicia-Volhynia Massacres since he was held in the Sachsenhausen and not in control of the OUN-B at this time, as head of OUN propaganda from 1931 to 1934 and de facto leader of the OUN-B from 1940 to June 29 1941, Bandera had promulgated and propagandised acts of violence towards Poles and Jews, with both groups cast as 'occupiers' pertaining to the pervasive Judeo-Bolshevism myth, in view of an ethnically-homogenous Ukrainian state. Bandera never condemned these events in the post-war years. 2A00:23C5:11E:F901:C872:A7E4:E8F8:3932 (talk) 14:20, 8 June 2025 (UTC)

I think this is a good edit. I will add it in the next few days if there are no objections. I may also copy edit to break this into a few separate sentences. isa.p (talk) 03:58, 9 June 2025 (UTC)

There are a number of things which aren't clear to me about this proposed edit. 1. Where is this being proposed to go? 2. Is this being proposed to replace existing content, or add to it? 3. Is that all supposed to be cited to that Rosslinski-Liebe source? Because although that source supports a number of those things, it doesn't seem to directly support all of that proposed content, so that would either require adjusting the wording or using other sources Tristario (talk) 04:18, 9 June 2025 (UTC)

took a second look and i am actually a little confused here too. thanks for the onceover. isa.p (talk) 05:45, 9 June 2025 (UTC)

My apologies that was lazy of me. The source I cited supports almost all of it but for the occupiers part (Rossolinksi-Liebbe's 2014 book already cited) and the new addition on Polonisation (Timothy Snyder, Sketches from a Secret War: A Polish Artist's Mission to Liberate Soviet Ukraine, Yale University Press, 2005, ISBN 0-300-10670-X, Google Print-- search "rapprochement"). The Poles edit replaces the sentence starting "Despite the central role". On reflection, the Jews section is good but it should link to the Judeo-Bolshevism myth.

Poles:

Bandera formed his views on Poles in a period marked by a policy of Polonisation in Western Ukraine (which itself formed a vicious cycle partly driven by UVO terrorism). Though not directly responsible for the 1943 Galicia-Volhynia Massacres since he was being held in Sachsenhausen and not in control of the OUN-B at the time, as head of OUN propaganda from 1931 to 1934 and de facto leader of the OUN-B from 1940 to June 29 1941, Bandera had promulgated and propagandised acts of violence towards Poles, cast as 'occupiers', in view of an ethnically homogenous Ukrainian state. Bandera never condemned the massacres in the post-war years 2A00:23C5:11E:F901:C872:A7E4:E8F8:3932 (talk) 13:58, 9 June 2025 (UTC)

There is already a link to Jewish Bolshevism in that section. For each statement in this proposed edit, would you mind giving the exact page numbers from which source(s) you are using to support it (or possibly a relevant direct quote from the source)?

Page 76 seems to be the relevant page in the snyder source, however that part doesn't mention bandera, so that only supports specifically there was a "period marked by a policy of Polonisation in Western Ukraine (which itself formed a vicious cycle partly driven by UVO terrorism)." If you aren't that familiar with the policies WP:Verifiability and WP:No original research have a look at them to be sure your proposed edit is in compliance with them. Tristario (talk) 23:55, 9 June 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for your patience, the source for the date of Bandera's detention is Rossolinksi-Liebbe 2011, p.96.

Replace the unsupported part with "Ukrainian nationalism during this period was shaped by a policy of..." supported by 1952 CIA report, p.4 and Tadeusz Olszański's 1989 article per this wiki though I'm struggling to find a url. 2A00:23C5:11E:F901:C556:3E87:A537:20B7 (talk) 10:10, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

The CIA report is a WP:PRIMARY source so not really a good source, and I can't access that article. However I think that Rossolinski-Liebe source you gave earlier is a good source so I will try to add some content from that to the article at some point, unless someone else does it first Tristario (talk) 11:24, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

Two proposed edits to 'Postwar activity' section from CIA documents

New paragraph in 'Postwar activity':

According to CIA reports from 1952 and 1977, Melnykite organisations would go on to establish contacts in the Ukrainian SSR with Ukrainian dissidents and publish dissident works such as the 1968 Chornovil Papers and five volumes of The Ukrainian Herald whereas the less intellectual and "radically outmoded" Banderite émigré organisations struggled to build influence on the ground in Ukraine.

On the end of paragraph starting "As early as 1945":

A CIA report from January 1952 assessing the allegations against Bandera asserted that "[t]here is little doubt that Stefan BANDERA is extreme rightist in his political outlook" and sums up the agency's initial relationship with the OUN in the following quote:

"It [the OUN] first came to the attention of American authorities when the Russians demanded extradition of BANDERA and many other anti-Soviet Ukrainian nationalists as war criminals. Luckily the attempt to locate these anti-Soviet Ukrainians was sabotaged by a few far-sighted Americans who warned the persons concerned to go into hiding."

2A00:23C5:11E:F901:C556:3E87:A537:20B7 (talk) 11:10, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

These are effectively WP:PRIMARY sources, not really WP:reliable sources, so not particularly good for an article like this unless covered by reliable secondary sources Tristario (talk) 11:27, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

But can't you state that intext? I don't mean to present it as an independent source. 2A00:23C5:11E:F901:C556:3E87:A537:20B7 (talk) 13:18, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

There are just issues with WP:Due weight, and interpretation when it comes to using primary sources Tristario (talk) 00:05, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

Okay no worries thanks for indulging. 2A00:23C5:11E:F901:C556:3E87:A537:20B7 (talk) 09:30, 11 June 2025 (UTC)