Talk:Sonic Team

[[Category: good articles|Sonic Team]] Template:Old move

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On the whole AM8 thing...

Let me just say, before I start, that I put in days of work into this. And I mean days, and lots of hours in those days. Reading old Sonic Team and Sonic the Hedgehog articles back to 1990 up through the modern day, going through old magazines on Retro CDN, you name it, I did it. I even bought a book seeking the answer to this question. Where the hell did we get "Sega-AM8" from? Follow me on this investigation here, so I can show you my train of thought:

Based on all the research I did, I have every reason to believe that Indrian was right all along, that AM8 was a mis-amalgamation of R&D #8, which we knew was a designation Sonic Team did actually have from 1999-2000. As evidence of this, I found two different magazines, both from October 2000 when the studios were split into subsidiary companies, with Electronic Gaming Monthly calling them R&D #8, and Next Generation (magazine) calling them AM8. In the same publishing month. If that's not confirmation of this theory, I don't know what is.

Ken Horowitz's book The Sega Arcade Revolution, published not even a month ago, sheds some light on this: he places all of this shuffling much earlier in Sega's history, I think in an effort to explain the story we've all been told about Sega-AM8 starting in 1988, but refers to Sega's R&D structure as being called the "Sega Amusement Machine Research and Development teams" and lists them as "Sega R&D #1 (AM1)", for instance. He does get AM2 right where magazines got it wrong in the same book, noting that AM2 was originally Sega DD #2 and became AM2 sometime after Power Drift. Horowitz does admit before going into detail about the origin of each studio, however, that Sega didn't keep good records in that time frame and there are holes that canvassing both English and Japanese sources can't fill in, and that he is only attempting to fill in the blanks with information from his sources and interviews.

AM8 is actually the first, date-wise in Horowitz's research, to be started, before AM1, AM2, or AM3. That makes it dubious right off the bat that that's the case. As further proof, I couldn't make heads or tails on the story about Shinobu Toyoda running AM8 from its supposed founding in 1988 and that Naka and co. were in his division. In no place other than retrospectives with this same narrative claiming the 1988 date can I find anything at all that indicates Toyoda was anything other than an executive at Sega of America. In other words, there's no evidence to really support this story's accuracy. For that, it needs to be left out because that has the telltale signs of being an accuracy error.

Does Toyoda missing from this account really matter? Probably not, actually. There's an argument to be made that Sonic Team really started in 1991 with Sonic the Hedgehog (1991 video game), and that year is listed as well in a January 2001 article from Next Generation (which I still have to add in - it mentions the Phantasy Star games before that but still calls 1991 the year of Sonic Team's origin). And at this point, I think that's where this story begins. Whatever division of Sega that Naka and co. were part of fell apart after Naka went to Sega Technical Institute anyway, so it's really a moot point in my opinion.

That being said, I think I've accumulated enough evidence to at least make mention of the AM8 name based on the use in more period-based sources from 2000 and evidence the research and development program name caused this confusion, plus that Sonic Team did not develop any arcade games stated clearly in a source. And that's as far as I want to go with it. That will be the explanation given to our readers as to why, when they see "AM8" everywhere, that that is a designation associated with Sonic Team. We can let them fill in that it's a mis-amalgamation and show them what we have.

Let me know if anyone has evidence to the contrary of my research, but after all that work I'm pretty strongly of my opinion of how much of "AM8" needs to be mentioned, and that's no more and also no less of what I inserted into the article. If anyone has any questions, let me know. I'm pretty sure all of that made me a bit of a guru on sources for this article :)

Red Phoenix ^talk 02:01, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

This is a heroic level of work. It's so dense I can't pretend to follow much of it, but I trust you to have got the facts as straight as anyone could with the sources we have.

My only suggestion would be to remember that, where sources disagree, it's fine to spell that out in the prose - eg with "Sources disagree about <blah blah blah>; according to X, <blah blah blah>, but according to Y, <blah blah blah>." But you probably know that already and have a good idea of whether that will be necessary. Popcornduff (talk) 08:11, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

It was a lot of work, probably too much but it was just something that's really been bugging me. It still bugs me that we don't know where that whole story comes from about Toyoda running the "AM8" division that included Naka and Ohshima and it starting in 1988. It's so prolific a story, and I'm sure it's been copied a lot, but how it got to be is something I just can't make sense of. Every story starts somewhere and the earliest place I found it was some college freshman at Stanford's paper for a class, dated to 2002 (two years before Wikipedia called it AM8 and four years before Retro Gamer published their profile on Sonic Team), but I can't get it any further back than that, and I doubt he made it up himself. The "AM R&D" name is actually confirmed if you look at a logo of Sega AM2; while the current one on its article is from when they were a subsidiary company, I did find one in the January 2001 of Next Generation where under the palm tree in the logo, it says "AM R&D Dept. #2". Red Phoenix ^talk 17:39, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

The Whole "Contest" Thing

Looking though some of the sources, it appears that the idea of a contest to create a mascot character for Sega is not quite accurate. As traditionally told in sources like Kent, Sega was looking for a mascot character and held an internal design competition. Then, once a mascot was chosen, Naka and Oshima started working on a game featuring this mascot. If one delves into the sources, however, it appears the situation is more complicated. In The History of Sonic the Hedgehog Oshima describes two separate processes going on at the same time: an attempt to create a game that would sell really well in the United States, and an attempt to find a new mascot character. Oshima, it appears, was involved in both: he was working with Naka to create a new fast-scrolling action game, and he was working with the toy and stationary department on design ideas for a mascot. Oshima believes that his mascot proposal was accepted precisely because he was already working with Naka on a game featuring the character. This explains why Yashuhara states that it was entirely up to him, Naka, and Oshima to develop said character, because the game was already in development when Sega decided to go with Oshima as the designer of their mascot. The recent GDC postmortem talk given by Oshima and Yasuhara also make it clear that the game was already in development when the final character was chosen. Its not that Oshima's character won a competition, its that when everyone was submitting ideas on how to do a mascot for Sega, the progress Naka and Oshima had already made on a character-driven game won them the assignment. Indrian (talk) 14:38, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

I was highly suspicious of that when I stumbled across the interview with Yasuhara; that seemed a little odd because he was very explicit in the interview that it was not directed at all of Sega but just himself, Naka, and Ohshima. I can't help but feel like retrospective sources on the beginnings of Sonic Team really got this wrong in every way possible, and I'd love to know how and why. Indrian, do you think you could supply some good quotes to reinforce this in the article? All I have access to is the Yasuhara interview. Red Phoenix ^talk 15:02, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

p. 97 Where did you get the inspiration to create SEGA's mascot?

At the time, SEGA was looking for a new game that would sell in the U.S., and at the same time, it was looking for a new company mascot. At that time, Naka-san and I were working together, and we had a rough prototype of

the game, and I was also working with the toy and stationary department, coming up with design ideas. Once the internal presentation rolled around, we already had quite a lot to show, so the company decided to support our

proposals, and gave us time to fully realize the project.

You mentioned that you already had rough ideas for a game and toys, so how was it working with the other departments?

There were many other teams that presented their ideas for SEGA's mascot, but I think we were the only one that spent so much time and effort and involved so many different departments, so I was very confident that we would

be selected.

Those are the most relevant quotes about this situation. Indrian (talk) 20:35, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Barriers to GA

What barriers do you guys see remain before a GA nomination? I personally feel we're about ready, but since there have been so many eyes on this article, I want to make sure everyone's in agreement and all remaining issues are fixed before a GA nomination. Thank you, Red Phoenix ^talk 23:26, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

Is there any discussion regarding their philosophy for game design or corporate culture? I've seen 'philosophy' sections in other game company GAs like Monolith Soft. TarkusAB^talk 12:21, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

From what I've seen, if there's sources to back it up it's good but not necessarily a barrier to the broadness criterion. The Games section helps to hit that so it's not just a company history. Red Phoenix ^talk 17:25, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Unless they are doing charity work or have a clear political/philosophical message in their games or community outreach, what would ever go there? ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 20:58, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Rare (company)'s "Culture" section explains Rare's goals for their games as well as the basic work environment and their practices, like their secrecy. I'm not really sure if Sonic Team's culture has been documented in the same way, as I'm more familiar with Sonic Team games rather than Sonic Team itself. JOEBRO64 21:03, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Well if that can be found, then sure. But I doubt it, because they are not really known for having a public image outside of making games. Perhaps anything that could be found would be from Sonic Team USA's side? ~ Dissident93 ^(talk)

This is unnecessary for GA or even FA. If the information doesn't exist, it doesn't exist and doesn't need to be added. Sonic Team may not even have a "culture" in the sense that some companies do. Popcornduff (talk) 06:55, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

This doesn't really exist in the source material, either. There is plenty about how Sonic was mishandled and why that was, but there's not really anything that indicates a culture at Sonic Team or any information about it. I'm sure a large part of that has to do with the fact it's not a "Sonic Team" culture as much as it is a "Sega" culture, being it was only a separate company for about four years or so and even then was a subsidiary of Sega. It's spent the rest of its time as a division of Sega. If that's really it for concerns, though, I'll probably list this for GA shortly after a bit more trim-up on the references. Red Phoenix ^talk 15:27, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

• Just something I noticed. The article says Naka met Ohshima and Kodama working on Phantasy Star but Alex Kidd in Miracle World predates this. Need a source, at work now though. TarkusAB^talk 21:37, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
  • Would love to find sources with that; I haven't seen it anywhere yet. Worthy of note as it pertains to Alex Kidd in Miracle World - the article there says Sega AM7 was the developer (likely because Kodama was later affiliated with Overworks?) but there was no AM7 at the time. This isn't tied to the AM8 debate here; even Ken Horowitz's book explicitly states there wasn't an AM7 until much later. Red Phoenix ^talk 00:19, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
    • Just coming back to this to let you know my claim was dubious. An IP put some wrong information in the Miracle World article a year ago I just reverted. Neither Naka or Ohshima were involved with Mircale World. Phantasy Star was most definitely Ohshima's first game, this is clearly stated in his interview in The Untold History of Japanese Video Games Vol. 3. Only Kodama was involved with Miracle World. TarkusAB^talk 20:30, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
      • Well, I’m glad that’s cleared up :) Red Phoenix ^talk 21:20, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

Foundation year

Hello. In my most recent edit, I changed the foundation year to 1990, since I was under the impression that the team was actually founded in that year. However, it was reverted. Per WP:BRD, I'm opening a discussion on this matter. Should we list the foundation date as 1990 or 1991? Thanks, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 06:15, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

If it were up to me, I'd actually list 1994, with Naka's return to helm Sega CS3, since even Naka himself called Sonic Team "just a team name" in 1991 but that it "truly became a brand" in 1994. That being said, this is debatable and has been, because as we discussed before, what are we calling Sonic Team? Naka and Ohshima? That would likely be 1990. Naka, Ohshima, and Yasuhara? Not sure if that's 1990 or 1991 since Yasuhara came on later. Release of Sonic the Hedgehog? That's clearly 1991, though we know they worked on it in 1990. Naka and Yasuhara? I don't think so; I believe it's important to credit Sega Technical Institute as the organization they worked at. I've always felt that Naka's return and reunion with Ohshima is, but the media tends to credit any work by Naka as Sonic Team (hell, there are even some that say 1988 and Phantasy Star, calling it Sega-AM8 then when it's clearly false).

Here's a thought: what's the precedent for this listing for video game studios - to go off of when they started developing, or their first release? Red Phoenix ^talk 13:05, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

To me, it doesn't make sense to use anything other than the point at which the first team or studio formed. We're talking about the history of a development studio here, not its products, if you see what I mean.

As for whether we consider Sonic Team to have formed for Sonic 1 or later... let's go by the sources. Sega may not have used the name until later, but most sources credit Sonic 1 to Sonic Team, applying the label retroactively. That's good enough for us, I think, and the route least likely to confuse readers. Popcornduff (talk) 13:12, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

A solid point for 1990 there. Dissident93, as the person who reverted, your thoughts? Red Phoenix ^talk 13:14, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Thinking more on it, the development of Sonic 1 began in 1990, so some part of the team had to have been formed around then as well. I'm fine with 1990 if others are, but 1991 still has a stronger case if people wish to debate that too. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 16:22, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

What's the case for 1991? Popcornduff (talk) 03:26, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

The first recorded case of Sonic Team being an official thing (by way of Sonic 1). ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 04:10, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

Hmm. I don't buy that, personally. This article is about the team of people described by sources as Sonic Team. That team formed in 1990. The fact that they weren't necessarily called Sonic Team in 1990 (and possibly not at all until the Saturn era) isn't so important.

Perhaps an odd comparison to draw, but Radiohead weren't named Radiohead until 1991, and didn't release their first single until 1992 - but they still formed in 1985. That's the normal way of thinking about these things, I believe. Popcornduff (talk) 05:01, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

Right, but the Sonic Team case is muddy because even until 1996, the name was more of an unofficial branding within Sega than its own legal entity, which is something that obviously was not the case with Radiohead. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 06:39, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

Does that make sense? Radiohead wasn't a legal entity while they were still kids playing in a school band, but we still say they formed in 1985. And besides, by your reasoning we'd have to say Sonic Team formed in 1996, not 1991. Popcornduff (talk) 06:58, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

Right, I'm just saying that it's easier to understand for a band like Radiohead than Sonic Team, especially as one could make the case for 3 or 4 different dates. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 18:59, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

If we’re really talking about a legal entity, Sonic Team has only been “Sonic Team” legally from 2000 until 2004, when it was a subsidiary company. Otherwise, it has been a numbered research department of Sega except for the original 1990-91 team, which were some developers from Sega’s CD (Consumer Development) division. Red Phoenix ^talk 13:09, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

Newly translated 1997 Sonic Team interview

Discussion about Sonic Team, Phantasy Star, Nights, Sonic games: http://shmuplations.com/sonicteam/ TarkusAB^talk/contrib 14:06, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

That’s awesome. I’ll have to do some digging in there. Red Phoenix ^talk 22:35, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Is this site considered a reliable source for Wikipedia purposes? Popcornduff (talk) 00:10, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

Yee. JOEBRO64 00:19, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

Are we sure about that? I mean I definitely consider it reliable myself, but I recall asking about it a few years ago and the consensus was "maybe not", IIRC. Popcornduff (talk) 00:27, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

I've used it a lot with no issue, and I've seen articles go through GAN and FAC using shmulations with no issue as well, so I've always just assumed it was considered reliable. I mean, I don't see any reason to consider it unreliable; the translations are usually pretty high-quality. JOEBRO64 00:33, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

Is Shmuplations a reliable source? Well, the original source here is Sega Magazine, not Shmuplations. I generally footnote these translations to the original source and provide a link to Shmuplations as a "translation" (as I did with source 5 in Policenauts). In the past he wasn't quite so good at providing the original source details, it's a long story why but he's gotten better with it over time.

So the follow-up question would be, are the translations valid? Well he's certainly not making up shit. Perhaps this is COI but I've met Alex in Tokyo and he's legit as it gets. He helped me get a library card and showed me how to scan magazines. TarkusAB^talk/contrib 01:19, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

I've cited it before. Usually what I'll do is cite the original source itself and note Shmuplations as a "via" through which the source was acquired, i.e. like a newspaper article accessed through an online library (such as HighBeam Research before it was closed sadly). Red Phoenix ^talk 03:23, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

All right, neat. I've done just that and added it to the Sonic the Hedgehog (1991 video game) page. Popcornduff (talk) 10:46, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

Also, according to this interview, Naka returned to Japan after Sonic 2 and Sonic 3 was developed there. That's not what our pages say... Popcornduff (talk) 10:48, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

If that is the case, right now Naka is the only one that says that, and he may very well be mistaken. From my work on Sega Technical Institute, GamesTM interviewed STI director Roger Hector, and he talked about the development of Sonic 3 and Sonic and Knuckles at STI. This is also consistent with the rest of our sources. If you Google "GamesTM Issue 60" the article for Sonic 3 and Sonic and Knuckles is toward the top of the list (not linked due to potential copyvio). To be sure, though, I have another magazine source I want to check later today. Red Phoenix ^talk 13:29, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, as Red says that might just be a mistake on Naka's behalf. All sources I've seen say that Naka was still in America at the time, and the majority of Sonic 3Template:'s development took place there. IIRC some of the game was programmed in Japan, but the core development was in America. JOEBRO64 14:16, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

Fair enough. Have to say it's nice working in areas of Wikipedia where people are so on the ball with the subject matter and sources! Popcornduff (talk) 14:24, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

It’s also worth noting that a fair bit of what Naka says has to be taken with a grain of salt. Especially as it pertains to STI and what was developed there. An STI artist, Craig Stitt, pretty much stated that Naka was the cause of discord between the Japanese and Americans during Sonic 2’s development, and that he wasn’t interested in working with Americans. We also know his tactics when it came to Sonic X-treme. I think it’s reasonable to ask if some of his quotes come from an anti-American, pro-Japanese bias, though for BLP reasons I can’t just put that in an article. Red Phoenix ^talk 19:20, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

"Sonic Studio"

Just a heads-up, in his Twitter goodbye today, Aaron Webber (who's moving from PR to a different position) said thanks "to all the employees of SEGA and Sonic Studio", not Sonic Team. It may not mean anything, but it might be something we want to keep our eyes on. JOEBRO64 19:12, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

"Sonic Team in Russia"

There’s an office complex in Novosibirsk, Russia which containsan “IT company” named “Sonic Team” on Russian map websites (i.e. regional equivalent to Google Maps). Obviously this doesn’t mean anything, but the listing contains photos of an office interior. Sonic Frontiers suspends developed in Russia, linked to sanctions behind Russian invasion of Ukraine. User:SonicTeamRussia54 64 13:44, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

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Requested move 27 June 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 16:10, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

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Sonic Team → Sega CS2Sega CS2 – While the Sonic Team name might now be related to Sonic, I am planning to move this to the name for the actual CS2 division since there are games mentioned on this list (also mentions the UGA games) that are not Sonic that are developed by the CS2 division (Samba de Amigo sequels, post-2013 Puyo Puyo games, later Sakura Wars games etc…) that only show the Sega name and no Sonic Team logo. This is highly complicated since Ryu Ga Gotoku Studio is CS1 and this team is CS2. VenezuelanSpongeBobFan2004 (talk) 02:59, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. Sonic Team is a widely recognized name and brand. Popcornfud (talk) 03:13, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. Sergecross73 msg me 04:50, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. ^Wiinter_U 05:43, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.