Talk:Self-harm

Keeping this at GA; switch to sfns?

I'm trying to bring this article to a state where it could survive a good article review, as currently it's nowhere near GA standards. Due to the widespread use of low-quality webpages as sources here, it's gotten by so far without a citation style geared toward paginated sources. For a few I've just added, I've used Template:Tls, but I find in this kind of article usually Template:Tls are the most straightforward to use to be clear about what verifies what. And switching to sfns is often a good way to visualize the citation structure of an article, and what issues it might have.

(Please note, I'm not criticizing anyone who's contributed to this article to date. GA standards have changed. Medical sourcing standards have changed. We just need to bring this article in sync with them.) -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 20:22, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you

1. REDIRECT Template:Reply to

Template:Redirect category shell your efforts to help bring this up to current GA standards are much appreciated. I don't see a problem switching to sfn. Cheers Polyamorph (talk) 07:09, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

P.S. embarrassing looking back at my comments in the old GA reviews 😳 Polyamorph (talk) 08:04, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Todo

Some things I'm taking note of as I work on this, in no particular order

1. The first classification section should probably be merged with the signs and symptoms section, the second classification section, or both.
2. Self-harm in popular culture should exist. There's a number of existing articles it could draw from, I think. Replace the "Awareness" section with a summary of it. But that's a whole 'nother project and I doubt I have the bandwidth for both that and this. Pinging Elli as someone who recently mentioned to me she was looking for a project. If someone writes most of it, I can probably find time for any parts about tattoos, an intersecting interest of mine. (Side todo, Cover-up (tattoo) should also discuss SH cover-ups.)
3. We need a working definition, even if we acknowledge it's not the only definition. Based on what reviews I've read, I think we can justify something like the following, but I'd like to read more first: (ed. 06:07, 29 August 2023 (UTC))Template:Tq2
4. I tagged the "History" section as synth because none of the sources used actually establish that these things could be called self-harm or at least are on a spectrum with it, but those sources absolutely do exist. More discussion of body modification, including tattoos and piercings, as a gray area between culturally normative practices and SH would also be useful. Favazza's Bodies Under Siege seems to have a lot of potential for bridging psychological and sociological aspects.
5. I get that there's consensus to only have one image of actual SH scars, but surely there's some images we can find that are related to SH without depicting it. (If the SH in popular culture article gets written, File:CSD Berlin 169.jpg might be an interesting one-SH-scar-image for that article; it's the only image I could find on Commons of someone with visible SH scars in a public setting.)

   I feel the current image could be better quality. I also think that showing healed SH scars look like is informative, but I'm open to suggestions for an alternative image instead. Re: the image for the pop. culture article, just don't zoom the image on the phone...! Polyamorph (talk) 07:49, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

6. I think I've tagged all pop-culture sources now, although some primary medical sources probably remain untagged. Most of these are probably substantially correct, although as we can see here, it's easy for overgeneralizations in such sources to turn into outright errors, which is why we need to shore these up.

-- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 21:03, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

N.B.: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Self-injury in popular culture was a thing, but I do not think would be an obstacle to a well-referenced, prose-heavy article on the topic. The deleted article was all xkcd #446-type stuff, and I'm thinking something more like Che Guevara in popular culture. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 23:52, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Main picture is too "aestethic"

Maybe I'm being paranoid but the picture of this article might look too "cute" for such a serious topic, the pinkish tone and harmless appearance might look appealing to some people thinking of self harming themselves. There's people who self harm that do it for the aesthethic after all.

I think a drawing would be the best way to illustrate this topic. Mirad1000 (talk) 13:34, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Discussions about the image are relatively frequent. As yet, no one has provided a suitable public domain alternative. I favour a photograph over a drawing, but would be open to replacing the current photograph if a good quality alternative was identified. Polyamorph (talk) 14:51, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't see how a drawing would be better than an actual picture. Elli (talk | contribs) 15:05, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree. Perhaps someone can find a good drawing? I probably wouldn't even support a picture with 'bad' aesthetic, as it can potentially make the action more 'real' and thereby accessible. JoeJShmo^💌 01:54, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

These discussion are pointless when there is no alternative image provided. Polyamorph (talk) 06:03, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

FYI, added a self-harm video which hopefully attenuates your concerns. The Blue Rider 04:56, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Polyamroph feel free to take an image out of the video if you think it is appropriate. The Blue Rider 05:00, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

I have more pictures if needed as well. The Blue Rider 05:02, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

There is longstanding consensus to only have one photo/video, so I've removed your addition absent a new consensus. I'll also note that Mirad1000's concern here is the exact opposite of the concern that led this page to move away from a bloodier photo in the past. There will never be a photo that pleases anyone: Too bloody and it's too triggering, too anodyne and it understates the severity. But I think the current image is a pretty good compromise. It is possible that some person might find the scars in the image appealing, but I mean, those are all quite large scars; if they're appealing to someone, it's hard to think of what wouldn't be. (For what it's worth, my reaction to those scars, speaking as someone who has self-harm scars and isn't ashamed of it, is "Jesus I hope I never do anything like that".) Mind you, most dermis-level cutting heals to something only a few millimeters wide, so if anything the image overstates the scarring from the average case of self-harm. Not that I'm complaining. Courtesy ping Doc James as photographer. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (they|xe) 05:52, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Maybe a reduction in saturation (the pink tint) and white point ('harmless appearance') can give the image a somewhat more neutral tone? I'm uploading my humble attempt to the article. I acknowledge that editing other individual's photograph may be a very rude thing to do, so please just revert me if anyone sees inappropriateness. irisChronomia (talk) 17:34, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

ping @Neo Purgatorio - Thanks for the feedback. I always find it hard to look at the image so that edit is just my attempt to make it look accpetable for myself. Got any ideas on this? irisChronomia (talk) 15:41, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

I personally find no issue with the image, but I'm also very desensitised to the topic. As @Tamzin stated a bit above, there's not really a photo that won't be an issue to some group of people—I think the image being used is a good compromise since it isn't particularly gory in any way, but it still shows the topic at hand.

I reverted the image because it seems like a bad idea to me to modify images tied to medical articles; it makes the image inaccurate to what it would actually look like. It's a sensitive topic, but Wikipedia is not censored, and we can't have a solution that lasts forever for everything, but I think what is displayed in the article is a good solution, and I don't think there's anything that will please everyone—the current image is probably the best one we can use for now without displaying either nothing or full-on gore. Neo Purgatorio (pester!) 20:08, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. I see. irisChronomia (talk) 22:03, 28 November 2024 (UTC)