Talk:Rudyard Kipling

Recent use of the "Boots" poem in a movie trailer

Hi! I'm just a reader with an account. English is not my first language. I noticed that Boots_(poem) mentions the very recent use of Kipling's poem in a movie trailer. I don't even know who this poet is yet. I think this article should also mention the movie trailer if all of this ends up bringing more attention to Kipling's work. It sure brought mine! -Philippemorin123 (talk) 00:08, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Book illustrations

Are any of Kipling's own book illustrations in the public domain? I looked at this page, but it's not entirely clear. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:02, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Should Kipling be referred to as English-Indian?

Should Kipling be referred to as English-Indian – or a similar term, such as British-Indian – in the lede and/or the short description? I am posing this as if it were an RfC, but am not formally making it such, because I believe that would potentially be more of a hinderance anything. Cheers, Will Thorpe (talk) 04:37, 18 April 2025 (UTC)

I am of the opinion that he should be. Of course he was English and British; this does not contradict that he was Indian, and India was his home. His writings constitute a major part of the Indian literary canon. Previous discussions about Kipling's national identity seemed at times to fall into reductiveness, which is impossible when discussing Kipling's identity. Will Thorpe (talk) 04:44, 18 April 2025 (UTC)

This has been discussed a number of times on this talk page, with respect to "Anglo-Indian", "British-Indian", or just plain "Indian", and general opinion was that this does not accord with how Kipling is described - in his own time or currently. Nor does it match how we label other authors of British nationality but international birth and upbringing, such as Doris Lessing. See page archives, and this very page two topics up. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 05:46, 18 April 2025 (UTC)

These discussions have often been misguided, getting lost in terminology rather than principle (whether 'Anglo-Indian' should be used today in the way it was used before, rather than whether the person was indeed of both identities), nationality law (which is besides the point, as India was in the Empire), or a false dichotomy – which guided the instigator of the above discussion.

From my skimming, there may not have yet been a suitable discussion of this matter.

Many reliable sources 1 2 3 4 5 6 note his Indian birth, and many of these his Anglo-Indian identity and affection for India.

He must at least be described as 'Indian-born English'.

Cheers, Will Thorpe (talk) 06:11, 18 April 2025 (UTC)

I think the present wording, with the 2nd sentence all about his India links, is fine. As for "India was his home", he left it in his early 20s, & I think never returned, despite being quite the globetrotter. Johnbod (talk) 03:51, 19 April 2025 (UTC)

@Johnbod I do think, especially in light of his sentiments and his literary output, 'Indian-born English' would be a better emphasis of this. Those who have raised an issue here in the past have had a point, and I believe this would be a middle-ground way to ameliorate the issue, whilst acknowledging that his growing up there is already mentioned, albeit secondarily.

Would you oppose such a change? Cheers, Will Thorpe (talk) 14:15, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

Yes. Do we assume our readers only read the first five words of articles? The second sentence works well. Johnbod (talk) 00:54, 21 April 2025 (UTC)

It is a matter of importance and emphasis. The second sentence can merely be rephrased, not deleted:

- Kipling was an Indian-born English writer

- His native British India inspired much of his works Will Thorpe (talk) 13:00, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

Religion/Religious background - "God-fearing Christian atheist" ?

re

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_Christian_Nobel_laureates#Why_not_treat_Christian_as_'ethnoreligious'?_Include_Christians,_Ex-Christians_or_people_w/_such_parents?

1 "God-fearing Christian atheist" ?

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/kiplings-religion-john-derbyshire/

2 methodist?

'Rudyard Kipling was born in Bombay in 1865, the son of a highly skilled artist and sculptor, John Lockwood Kipling, and his wife Alice (nee Macdonald), who was the daughter of a celebrated Methodist. The Methodist background does not play a large part in Kipling’s life, but his aunts on his mother’s side gave him an entrée into the cultivated English upper class.'

https://yalebooks.yale.edu/2021/06/28/the-making-of-a-childrens-writer/

3 anglican?

what happened to this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Rudyard_Kipling/Archive_1#Anglican?

Does anyone know why Kipling has been included in Category:English Anglicans? While he was baptized into the Anglican church (like the great majority of English people at the time) he does not seem to have been in any way an active churchgoer, and I do not see the relevance of the category. DuncanHill 15:31, 31 August 2006 (UTC) Obtained from the 1938 Anglican Church of Canada Revised Hymnal, in which a hymn or hymns appear by Kipling. Kipling's religious affiliation is mentioned in the listing. Homagetocatalonia 02:53, 19 January 2007 (UTC) 218.253.54.29 (talk) 16:15, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

Simpler proposal: 'Indian-born English writer'

As I have stated above, the central issue here when it comes to the lede is a matter of emphasis. The lede may open as follows whilst only resolving rather than sustaining or creating any contention:

Joseph Rudyard Kipling (/ˈrʌdjərd/ RUD-yərd; 30 December 1865 – 18 January 1936) was an Indian-born English journalist, novelist, poet, and short-story writer. Much of his work was inspired by his native British India, though he lived elsewhere for most of his life.

This appears to me to resolve all points of uncertainty, whilst adding valuable (not superfluous) information to the lede. I also might like to add a footnote referring to his Anglo-Indian identity discussed and cited in the body.

Cheers, Will Thorpe (talk) 10:08, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

No objections, looks fine. I assume the only internal links would be to the pronunciation and to British India. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:39, 29 May 2025 (UTC)