Talk:Raphael
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Add name of Raphael's father
Giovanni Santi (Raphael's father) has an English language Wikipedia page (Giovanni Santi) so the opportunity shouldn't be missed to include it here with a link: "His father was court painter to the ruler of the small but highly cultured city of Urbino." (second para) Sadie694 (talk) 16:27, 4 February 2025 (UTC)
- He was linked in the detailed section below, but I have added another there(which some officious MOS-follower will probably remove eventually). Of the 2 places, the 2nd is the most appropriate. Johnbod (talk) 17:39, 4 February 2025 (UTC)
- Got it, thanks! Sadie694 (talk) 10:20, 12 February 2025 (UTC)
Perugino link
"He trained in the workshop of Pietro Perugino" (para 2) - we don't know this, and it is indeed an ongoing debate in Raphael/Perugino scholarship. Sadie694 (talk) 16:29, 4 February 2025 (UTC)
- "probably" added. Johnbod (talk) 17:45, 4 February 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks! Sadie694 (talk) 10:21, 12 February 2025 (UTC)
Remove opinion
"After his early years in Rome, much of his work was executed by his workshop from his drawings, with considerable loss of quality." Suggest removal of 'with considerable loss of quality'. Our perception of 'quality' is different from the Renaissance perception (a patron may have only required a particular iconography/composition, and be very content with a more roughly painted workshop version, for example). In addition, this implies that all the workshop pictures are crude, when that simply isn't the case. Sadie694 (talk) 16:34, 4 February 2025 (UTC)
- This still seems to be the perception of contemporary scholarship, not to mention popular opinion. Johnbod (talk) 17:40, 4 February 2025 (UTC)
- Could a solution be to add 'consistent' as in, 'considerable loss of consistent quality'? I'm just thinking of advances in workshop studies and what we know about the inheritance of Raphael's workshop by very talented artists working in the capacity of his assistants/associates. I can see why you've said to keep the idea that the work is seen to suffered in general, but at the moment to me the current phrasing still perpetuates the myth of workshop = bad, master = genius. Sadie694 (talk) 10:25, 12 February 2025 (UTC)
- Perhaps. Don't you think the evaluation of the Raphael Rooms played a part in the creation of the "myth", which is very often the case, at least as workshop = less good, master = genius? Johnbod (talk) 00:55, 13 February 2025 (UTC)
- Could a solution be to add 'consistent' as in, 'considerable loss of consistent quality'? I'm just thinking of advances in workshop studies and what we know about the inheritance of Raphael's workshop by very talented artists working in the capacity of his assistants/associates. I can see why you've said to keep the idea that the work is seen to suffered in general, but at the moment to me the current phrasing still perpetuates the myth of workshop = bad, master = genius. Sadie694 (talk) 10:25, 12 February 2025 (UTC)
Removal of Perugino reference in Mond Crucifixion image caption
"very much in the style of Perugino". I'd suggest removing this reference, only because including it means it is wrongly omitted from the 'The Resurrection of Christ, 1499–1502 (São Paulo Museum of Art)' and 'The Wedding of the Virgin, Raphael's most sophisticated altarpiece of this period (Pinacoteca di Brera)', which are both based to a high degree on earlier works by Perugino. Sadie694 (talk) 16:41, 4 February 2025 (UTC)
- So we should say it 3 times, or not at all? I don't see that, and the text also covers the issue. Johnbod (talk) 17:43, 4 February 2025 (UTC)
- Yeah, I wonder if it is cleaner to just not say it at all - does it ask more questions than it answers?! Sadie694 (talk) 10:18, 12 February 2025 (UTC)