Talk:Presbyterian polity

Articles for individual bodies

I have removed some internal links that seem distracting to me. I have also made a couple of new pages that redirect here: Presbytery (presbyterian church) and General Assembly (presbyterian church). A redirect at Kirk Session already exists. Consider these as placeholders for the articles dedicated to those courts that Blarneytherinosaur suggested. I tried to tidy the disambiguation pages at Presbytery and General Assembly to reflect this. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 14:59, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Ruling elder

Please look at The ministry because it starts with an ambiguous sentence that seems to imply (to me) that ruling elder is the same office as teaching elder. I thought that women had basically been excluded from all forms of eldership until the 19th century. Can you make it more clear, please? --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 11:07, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I've had a go. I hope it clears that up. Blarneytherinosaur 02:29, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Ruling elder and teaching elder are the same New Testament office, presbyter. The ordinations are essentially identical. However they seem to have become somewhat different offices. E.g. if a ruling elder becomes a teaching elder, which can certainly happen, I believe they are ordained again. Hedrick (talk) 22:56, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely. Thanks. Since I was still puzzled by this term (I am no theologian, and no presbyterian) I did a web search. This book implies that all presbyterian elders are formally known as Ruling Elders:

http://www.bpc.org/resources/books/miller/elder09.html

I imagine that the word 'ruling' arises from their being ordained to a role in church government, and is simply to distinguish them from 'teaching elder', and from 'elder' meaning 'older person'. However, I do not know if my inference is right, or even if Miller is considered authoritative. It seems that the article is missing a section on The Elder (or The Ruling Elder) to become fully rounded. Any takers? --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 07:23, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

In the PCUSA, teaching elder and ruling elder are seen as two offices. It seems very odd to think of a teaching elder as also a ruling elder. I believe you have misinterpreted Miller. He says that teaching elders also rule, but not that they are actually rulin elders. Hedrick (talk) 22:56, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

I would agree with your assumption about the term 'ruling', but I do not know whether Miller is authoritative either. The Westminster Confession might clear it up.

I also agree with the need for a section on elders. I don't know when I would have time to do it (It took me many months to get the time and motivation to do the rewrite, little work that it was) but if no one beats me to it, I'll have a shot. Blarneytherinosaur 10:36, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

We could ask at Talk:Presbyterianism for a volunteer to write the 'Ruling elder' section, if you think you don't have the time. Just a thought. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 16:42, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Did you notice yet that Westminster The Form of Presbyterial Church-Government mostly calls them variously Church-Governors and Ruling officers? Elders are mostly mentioned in a piece about the NT Jerusalem church. The Westminster documents are primary sources so we need to look at good books (secondary sources) to get an authoritative interpretation (at least I do, as I am not a trained historian.) --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 21:43, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Different words are used for the same person in different functions. It seems to me that when the elder is dealing with the local congregation they are called "ruling officer." When they are acting in a higher court they are a "church-governor." The same thing happens to ministers. For instance, in a service of worship that includes admitting a person into membership of the congregation, the minister performs the normal parts of the service as the minister, but when it comes to admitting the person to membership, they act as the moderator of the session, because membership is a function of the session. I'll see what I can come up with for secondary sources. Blarneytherinosaur 01:39, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Pastor

Do presbyterians in some countries call their teaching elder Pastor? (As did George Gillespie.) If so, then lets make this article reflect that, to make it more accessible to readers from those countries. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 07:23, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes. In the denomination I attend most ordained men use "Rev." and are called ministers, but some are called "Pastor". It comes down to preference. (It is often unordained men in temporary positions of ministry are called "Pastor"). However, I imagine that in other Presbyterian denominations calling all ordained minsters "Pastor" could be the practice. Blarneytherinosaur 07:32, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

After replying to the References section, I realised that the reference I directed you towards, The Form of Presbyterial Church-Government deals with the ordained minister of the word and the sacrament under the heading "Pastors". If the writiers of the Westminster Confession called minsters "pastors" I would think that the term would be widespread. Blarneytherinosaur 07:40, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

References

Here are a couple of references a simple google search uncovered. I do not know if they are authoritative, or wholly accurate. I am sure that your local minister and elder will have better books in their library. Failing that, this list could get a knowledgeable person started on sourcing the many facts in this article.

• http://www.covenanter.org/AMason/publiccovenants.htm Archibald Mason, 1799
• http://www.covenanter.org/GGillespie/miscellaneousquestions/ggilles15.html 'Of Uniformity' - George Gillespie
• http://www.bpc.org/reading_room/books/miller/ruling_elder.html The Online Version of The Ruling Elder by Samuel Miller, D.D.

especially http://www.bpc.org/resources/books/miller/elder09.html CHAPTER IX. THE NATURE AND DUTY OF THE OFFICE.

• http://www.covenanter.org/JMWillson/Deacon/deacon2.htm Chapter 2 The Nature of the Deacon's Office - JAMES M. WILLSON, 1841
• http://www.upper-register.com/other_studies/hodge_elder.html The Nature and Warrant of the Ruling Elder in the Ecclesiology of Charles Hodge - Lee Irons, 2003
• http://www.upper-register.com/other_studies/eldership.html Theories of Eldership: A Study in Presbyterian Polity By Lee Irons
• Also see Philip Morgan and Thomas Campbell, interesting figures in reuniting presbyterian polity with congregational polity.

Should be Philip Morgan at

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20051021/ai_n15721867/print

and Thomas Campbell (Restoration movement) --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 16:45, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

• http://www.pcanet.org/general/history.htm PCA History. PCA is a conservative North American denomination:

"It has taken seriously the position of the parity of elders, making a distinction between the two classes of elders, teaching and ruling. It has self-consciously taken a more democratic position (rule from the grass roots up) on presbyterian governance in contrast to a more prelatical form (rule from the top assemblies down)."

• There seem to be more online books at http://www.reformed.org/ but there seems to be some bug in my browsers that stops them displaying.
• Finally, I feel tempted to add this highly disrespectful popular poem

--Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 07:24, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

For when your browser is working, may I suggest as a reference The Form of Presbyterial Church-Government, one of the additional documents from the Westminster Confession. I intend to scour it for information when I have the time. I would imagine that all of the Presbyterian churches with British links would take their form of Presbyterian polity from this book. Blarneytherinosaur 07:36, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for adding some references Hroðulf. Blarneytherinosaur 09:32, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

The current church law texts of the Church of Scotland can be found on their website at [1]. Hope this is useful to folks Slackbuie 14:25, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

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