Talk:Poznań

There's some inaccurate information on Poznan History

I understand some of the Polish nationalism on here, but often times people write incorrect information when they're "in the heat of the moment". To the poster who claims Posen "always was, is, and always will be" a Polish city has glaring mistakes in the explanation. The fact is (and feel free to do research to educate yourself) Posen was part of Prussia, and then the German Empire from 1793 to post WW1 in 1918/1919. YES, during the Napoleon led Polish Uprising of 1806 the City briefly switched back to Polish control for about 9 years (1806-1815). But history is accurate in claiming the City was a part of Germanic statehood for nearly 115 years. During this time, the Prussians (Germans if you like) greatly fortified and expanded the City into a stronghold and center of culture and trade in the area. The Germans of the city weren't "invited" by the Polish rulers to settle - rather the Prussians encouraged settlement into these areas in order to "Germanize" them. In fact for most of the 19th century, many Posen residents who never knew the days of being part of Poland, and of Polish decent, would have considered themselves Germans of Polish decent. You may not like to hear these facts, but they are indeed, facts. Part of my family lived in Posen and originally settled there in the mid-19th century during Prussian rule. Once the City was handed over to Poland after WW1, they moved, along with many others, back to Germany. To say they were "Good Poles" is completely inaccurate. One side of the City was German, and the other side was Polish. After WW1, the city then became primarily Polish as the ethnic Germans migrated back. It's fine to have an opinion, but when it comes to history, we really need to base these on facts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.92.61.10 (talk) 15:53, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

WP:NOTFORUM. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:30, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

@208.92.61.10 By the 1840s, the German population of Poznań didn't exceed 40%. Even at the height of German inhabitance, the city was still majority Polish. 85.128.6.226 (talk) 13:16, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 5 December 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Favonian (talk) 16:41, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

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Poznań → PoznanPoznan – The proposed name is the WP:COMMONNAME for the city. This is shown by the broad use of the proposed name by multiple news agencies, such as NYT, the Guardian, AP, AJ, Reuters, and ABC. Spekkios (talk) 22:30, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose - per comments here -->[1] - GizzyCatBella🍁 02:56, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

• As per your comment there, please show that reliable sources use the current name, because as per my move request it appears they do not. --Spekkios (talk) 04:49, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose. There are four similar proposals currently active — Talk:Zürich#Requested move 30 November 2021, Talk:Kraków#Requested move 3 December 2021, Talk:Wrocław#Requested move 5 December 2021 and Talk:Łódź#Requested move 5 December 2021. All of these propose to strip diacritics from the names of European cities that use the Latin alphabet — a matter that has already been decided in favor of accents and diacritics during previous such discussions. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 03:01, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

• I note that no policy-aligned reason has been provided here, with the only reason being a vague nod at past discussions which don't exist for this article, and if they did WP:CCC and WP:LOCALCONSENSUS would apply. BilledMammal (talk) 03:28, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
• You have provided no policy reason to oppose a move nor provided any evidence that the matter of accents and diacritics has been decided, especially because WP:DIACRITICS clearly says to use the WP:COMMONNAME as provided in reliable English-languages sources. --Spekkios (talk) 04:49, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

• Support, for the same reasons as at the Wroclaw discussion; per the sources provided in the nomination and my own search, it is the clear WP:COMMONNAME.

In regards to GizzyCatBella's !vote, if this were the Polish Wikipedia then they would be correct - "Poznań" would be the correct spelling, and "Poznan" would be inaccurate. However, this is not the Polish Wikipedia, this is the English Wikipedia, and in English, per reliable sources, "Poznan" is the correct name for the city. I would also note that no policy justification has been provided for their position, while "Poznan" is supported by WP:COMMONNAME, by WP:UE, which states that "The choice between anglicized and local spellings should follow English-language usage", and by WP:DIACRITICS, which states that the use of diacritics should "follow the general usage in reliable sources that are written in the English language". If they, or other editors, disagree with this, then I would suggest that they seek to change WP:UE or WP:DIACRITICS, rather than trying to overrule them with a WP:LOCALCONSENSUS. BilledMammal (talk)

Template:Ping have you looked in the category Category:Cities_and_towns_in_Greater_Poland_Voivodeship? Have you looked at any Eastern Europe geo cat on en.wp? In ictu oculi (talk) 17:06, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

If the articles listed in those categories have titles that disagree with policy, then those articles should also be moved, or policy should be changed. Personally, I would have a slight preference for moving, but if a policy change was proposed it wouldn't be hard to convince me to support it. What should not be done is allow the status quo to stand. BilledMammal (talk) 23:04, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Oppose as per established rules--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 07:38, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

• Which rules are you refering to? WP:DIACRITICS and WP:COMMONNAME both support this move. --Spekkios (talk) 07:53, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

• No, they do not. Volunteer Marek 09:21, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

• WP:DIACRITICS says Template:Tq and WP:COMMONNAME says Template:Tq Can you please explain how those policies don't support the new name, intead of just stating they don't? --Spekkios (talk) 10:07, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

  We have English sources aplenty that use diacritics. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:58, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

  The argument is not that there are no English sources for a name, but that the WP:COMMONNAME is not the article title. There are approximately 220,000 scholar results for Poznan and 190,000 for Poznań. BBC has 1,130 for Poznan and 31 for Poznań. Reuters is 2,240 vs 139. --Spekkios (talk) 01:24, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

a restriction of google scholar searches to be after 2010 shows 39,200 for Poznan [2] and 45,700 for Poznań [3]—blindlynx 14:27, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

• oppose Per the Wrocław and Kraków discussions—blindlynx 14:35, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose per the other discussions (linked to by Roman S). Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 17:22, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose as per my comments on Talk:Wrocław – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 09:39, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose. Wikipedia is not dumbed down and WP:DIACRITICS are ok. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:57, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
• Strong oppose no evidence has been provided per WP:TENNISNAMES that Poznań is a blonde Serbian former tennis player. We only anglicize one article on en.wp because of the special rules that apply to that one person. In ictu oculi (talk) 17:04, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

  Are you sure you are commenting under the right article? Szmenderowiecki (talk) 21:36, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

  IIO's comment is in reference to ancient discussions on Talk:Ana Ivanović from a previous iteration of the endless diacritics dispute – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 22:42, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

  In other words, WP:DEADHORSE... close, and move on until another newbie in 10 years discovers diacritics and gets confused. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:50, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

  I think that's an extremely poor characterisation of the nature of this request. --Spekkios (talk) 21:34, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose. No it isn't. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:46, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose news services often avoid all diacritics for reasons that don't apply to Wikipedia, and other usage suggests we should use the diacritic. On a Google Scholar search for "Poznan" (without a diacritic), all of the top 10 results use a diacritic (and are in English). User:力 (powera, π, ν) 19:07, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose none of the sources use any diacritics for anything in their articles. We can't tell if they made the intentional decision to misspell Poznań or if they just didn't bother on adding them. By the way, the sources also misspell person names, such as Bartłomiej Wróblewski. Will someone also try to move the article per WP:COMMONNAME? Super Ψ Dro 10:35, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

I will happily note that all other RMs attempting to remove diacritics from city names have failed (except the Zürich one, as it's still open). Maybe people should take this as a sign that we aren't misspelling names per lazy sources and end these requests. Super Ψ Dro 10:38, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

Glad to see this failed, but someone please put this out of its misery and close it. In ictu oculi (talk) 22:53, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.