Talk:New York Penn Station

Requested move 30 May 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. A move to Pennsylvania Station can be discussed seperately. (closed by non-admin page mover) CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 16:46, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

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• Pennsylvania Station (New York City) → Pennsylvania Station (New York City, 1968–present)Pennsylvania Station (New York City, 1968–present)
• Pennsylvania Station (1910–1963) → Pennsylvania Station (New York City, 1910–1963)Pennsylvania Station (New York City, 1910–1963)

– The current titles obscure the relation between the two stations, especially in contrast to other Pennsylvania Stations. (The modern one was built on top of the former one.) Pageview ratio in the last 90 days was about 2.12:1 in favor of the modern station. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 05:43, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. That's no reason to move Pennsylvania Station (New York City). Mackensen (talk) 11:04, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
  • I would Support the suggestion to move Pennsylvania Station (New York City) to Pennsylvania Station, and fold that article's content into the disambiguation page. Easily the primary topic for the name. Mackensen (talk) 01:43, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
• Support for the historic station, oppose for the current station. The status quo for the current station, as (NYC), is sufficient and does not need further explanation--the main-topic among these two. But I agree with nom that the old one, while currently not ambiguous, would be more recognizeable as a sub-dab of it (NYC years). DMacks (talk) 11:41, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
• I think Dmack's suggestion above makes the most sense. The current Penn station doesn't need an additional disambiguation and per WP:DISAMBIG should be as short as possible. It also more closely matches common practice where dates are only used for the historical properties, e.g. with the Waldorf Astoria and Waldorf-Astoria (1893–1929). Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 14:03, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
• Move Pennsylvania Station (New York City) to Pennsylvania Station. I'm rather shocked that in the previous discussions relating to this article's title, the primary topic aspect didn't come up. This buidling gets most of the pageviews and has undeniable long-term notability. The current Pennsylvania Station article can easily be merged into Pennsylvania Station (disambiguation), as it appears to be a bit of a WP:CFORK. No strong opinions about the second article, Pennsylvania Station (1910) would probably be fine (see Madison Square Garden and Madison Square Garden (1925), for example.) 162 etc. (talk) 16:36, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

  Template:Tq - I actually moved that article to its current name nine years ago, since I felt it would be clearer to include the destruction date of the station (similar to World Trade Center (1973–2001) and 270 Park Avenue (1960–2021) for example). Although, it could be argued that the old Penn Station was not fully demolished until 1968. – Epicgenius (talk) 01:10, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

• Move Pennsylvania Station (New York City) to Pennsylvania Station - Multiple stations in the PRR system were and are known as Penn Station, but these names tend to be used interchangeably, with Pennsylvania Station in Newark being more often referred to as Newark Penn, for example. In addition to this, as trivial as it may be, this was the only station in the PRR system that wasn't renamed to and from Penn Central Station in the 1960s. As such, I also believe that Pennsylvania Station (1910–1963) should stay in place as-is. The modern station is the primary topic between the two articles, as passenger operations continued during demolition of the old station. Cards84664 16:53, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. The modern station is a decapitated continuation of the old one (plus a recent expansion), so there is no clean division to be made here. If you don't believe me, notice how the proposed moves omit the years between 1963 and 1968, even though the station continued to function during that period. Einsof (talk) 01:34, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose Nothing is gained by qualifying this article with dates. This article is about the current station, and serves more purposes than just delineating the history of it. We don't qualify St. Peter's Basilica or St. Paul's Cathedral with date, even if they have had predecessors. This is unnecessarily pedantic. The proposal seeks only to serve those interested in the history of the station, but no one researching its history will be surprised or disoriented by the current article title. The other article is of mere historical interest, so don't oppose the second move as it helps clarification. Walrasiad (talk) 22:40, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. The current station is the more prominent and more sought out article and should not be qualified with dates that will likely prove confusing. Keystone18 (talk) 02:00, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose both. For the historic station, the year range is precise enough that the location is not needed; this is similar to World Trade Center (1973–2001).Template:PbFor the current station, the disambiguator is too long, and I think the wrong year range is being used (it should be 1963-present). However, as has been pointed out above, there is no clean cutoff point for when the old station ceased to exist and when the current station came into existence. It can certainly be argued that the current station, which uses the original platforms, still technically is the station from 1910, even though the station building has been entirely demolished. Hence, the old station is also summarized in this article. I have no opinion on whether the disambiguator for the current station should be dropped entirely (i.e. Pennsylvania Station), but the Pennsylvania Station page is currently an article of its own, so that really should be fixed first. – Epicgenius (talk) 01:08, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Post-RM comment

I've proposed a merge of Pennsylvania Station and Pennsylvania Station (disambiguation). See Talk:Pennsylvania Station. 162 etc. (talk) 18:50, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 19 July 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Consensus to move to New York Penn Station, mainly per natural disambiguation. No move of the disambiguation page is required. (closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky (talk) 12:05, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

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• Pennsylvania Station (New York City) → Pennsylvania StationPennsylvania Station
• Pennsylvania Station → Pennsylvania Station (disambiguation)Pennsylvania Station (disambiguation)

– Following up after my requested move at Newark Penn Station and the previous requested move where multiple editors suggested moving the article to this title. Pennsylvania Station in New York City is the primary topic for the term "Pennsylvania Station". Of the articles listed at Pennsylvania Station, only Pennsylvania Station is still currently called "Pennsylvania Station" (with the exception of defunct stations and the NYC Subway stations which are called that because of this station). :3 F4U (they/it) 06:19, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Pinging @Mackensen, @162 etc., @Epicgenius, and @Cards84664 who previously opined about a potential move to here. :3 F4U (they/it) 06:22, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Listed at: WT:WikiProject New York City, WT:WikiProject New York City Public Transportation, and WT:WikiProject New Jersey. :3 F4U (they/it) 06:29, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

• Weak oppose - The article on Baltimore Penn Station still says that station is known as "Pennsylvania Station" formally, though I wasn't able to confirm this after a very brief search. But, I think that a move instead to New York Penn Station would be a more WP:RECOGNIZABLE title with WP:NATURAL disambiguation and more WP:CONSISTENT with other articles on the dab page. estar8806 (talk) ★ 11:53, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

@Estar8806 on the Baltimore question, I did a fairly thorough search last year during the move request: Talk:Baltimore Penn Station#Requested move 18 June 2022. I wonder if the "formal name" (which is not sourced) is a nod to the NRHP listing. NRHP names aren't a good guide for actual names of things, they tend to be descriptive. Mackensen (talk) 12:01, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Mhm, my understanding is that, with the exception of Penn Station, no station uses Pennsylvania Station as their WP:COMMONNAME :3 F4U (they/it) 12:23, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

• Comment. Looking on Google results for "Pennsylvania station" -Wikipedia it's clear that the station in Manhattan is the clear primary topic for "Pennsylvania Station", but it is not clear to me whether that or "Penn Station" is its common name. Thryduulf (talk) 12:40, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

My personal and entirely unqualified experience living in NJ is that Pennsylvania Station is used in official and formal contexts, while Penn Station is used in more vernacular or news contexts. :3 F4U (they/it) 12:54, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Comment. "Penn Station" is far more frequently used than "Pennsylvania Station" -- including in subway and train (both NJT and LIRR) announcements, and the name of the subway station at 34th St. It's also used more frequently by the press, including the relatively fusty old Grey Lady and the Wall Street Journal. A quick unscientific survey of articles from those two suggests that they both consistently use "Pennsylvania" in the first mention in the body of an article, but use "Penn" in subsequent mentions as well as in headlines and image captions. -- Avocado (talk) 13:51, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

• Support moves as described by requestor, due to Pennsylvania Station being the primary topic. Cards84664 13:57, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
• I would weakly support this. However, my preference is for New York Penn Station, since that would eliminate nearly all confusion (people may still link to "Pennsylvania Station" when referring to Penn Stations in other cities). Epicgenius (talk) 14:07, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
• Move instead to New York Penn Station. This is the name seen on official signage and used by all the operators: Amtrak, NJ Transit, MTA Penn Station Reconstruction, MTA Penn Station Access use Penn Station or New York Penn Station rather than Pennsylvania Station. It's also more common in independent publications and casual conversation; searching "Penn Station" New York -Wikipedia returns ten times as many hits as "Pennsylvania Station" New York -Wikipedia, and interestingly, many of the first-page hits for the latter search refer to the original station that was demolished in the 1960s. I'm inclined to believe that New York Penn Station both satisfies WP:COMMONNAME and distinguishes it from other casual uses of Penn Station. ^Complex/_Rational 14:48, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose - As a New Yorker, I'd like to be able to support this, but in fact there are numerous "Pennsylvania Stations" across the US, some of which are mentioned above. The one in Manhattan is probably the most well known, but the disambiguator is still necessary. As for "Pennsylvania Station" vs. "Penn Station", the latter is clearly and obviously the most commonly used colloquial name, but an encyclopedia should use something approximating a building's formal name, and the common formal name is "Pennsylvania Station". Beyond My Ken (talk) 17:04, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

  @Beyond My Ken There are four "Pennsylvania Stations" that this article is competing with: Baltimore Penn Station, Newark Penn Station, 30th Street Station, and Union Station (Pittsburgh). In pageviews, the modern New York City station gets more redirects than all of them combined. If we factor in the older Penn Station (whose history is included in this article), Pennsylvania Station (NYC) gets overwhelmingly more than the other stations. I don't really have an opinion on "Pennsylvania Station" vs "Penn Station", I just don't think the disambiguation is appropriate for a WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. :3 F4U (they/it) 17:34, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose-While there is a case for primary topic, given how many other stations use or have used the name, and how many pages start with "Pennsylvania Station", I think it is best to leave the name as is. The disambiguation page Pennsylvania Station could be edited to indicate that the one in NYC is the most well known. I'd also be in favor of a one year block on new move requests. --agr (talk) 18:03, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
• Move instead to New York Penn Station. Per the well written argument by ComplexRational. -- RickyCourtney (talk) 18:58, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

  I had (wrongly!) assumed there was some kind of a consensus against "New York Penn Station" looking at the Requested moves history, but it looks like they were closed with barely any discussion. I support moving to New York Penn Station as the nominator. :3 F4U (they/it) 19:05, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose both proposals. I do think the title still needs disambiguation, that is should state that it's about the station in New York City, as there are numerous Penn Stations with that actual name, even if the city is sometimes included to be specific (like Baltimore), so the original proposal is a no go. But I oppose a name that doesn't put "Penn(sylvania) Station" first, as that is the acti common name. People, especially locals, don't say "I'm going to New York Penn Station", they just say "Penn Station", in contrast to Newark where people actually call it "Newark Penn Station". The disambiguation should be parenthetical, whether or not the full "Pennsylvania" is used. oknazevad (talk) 20:59, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
• Move to New York Penn Station., disam: Pennsylvania Station should lead readers to navigation/ understanding of all stations that have borne the name. (Incidentally, in local & announcement jargon, often called Penn Station New York or New York Penn.) Djflem (talk) 21:10, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose: New York is indeed the primary topic for "Pennsylvania Station", and the article title should reflect this. However, there are multiple Pennsylvania Stations, and "Pennsylvania Station (New York City)" is the least ambiguous while preserving the full name of the station. "New York Penn Station" unnecessarily shortens the name, while not being significantly more common. NYP as the flagship Pennsylvania Station is notable enough that the article title should use the full name. (I would, however, prefer the original nomination of "Pennsylvania Station" over "New York Penn Station". –Zfish118^⋉talk 20:27, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
• Move to New York Penn Station. Good use of WP:NATURALDISAMBIGUATION. Rreagan007 (talk) 22:14, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
• Support as per nom, and oppose the alternative suggestion of New York Penn Station. See WP:DPT. 162 etc. (talk) 08:07, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
• Support New York Penn Station alternative move. 2nd choice is original proposal, 3rd choice is the status quo. It's usually called "Penn Station" rather than "Pennsylvania Station" so prefer the NY Penn Station natural disambiguation option. SnowFire (talk) 23:27, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.