Talk:Margaret Sambiria

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To change this from Margaret to Margrethe is very inappropriate. Current Danish spelling was not in use in those days, thus such formulation does not make sense. And, to other nationalities she was Margaret. (It should be notred that she was not born Danish.) Arrigo 06:06, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

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Estonia

Hi @Aciram, did you mean duchess instead of countess? Because at the time the land was called Duchy of Estonia (1219–1346). duchess is the female form of duke. It's okay for a duchess regnant, i.e. female duke reigning in her own right, to be in a Template:Xt category. E.g. Nicole, Duchess of Lorraine is Category:Dukes of Lorraine. Therefore, Margaret Sambiria should be in Category:Dukes of Estonia. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 14:26, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

The source said Countess, not Duchess. Perhaps her son gave her the title Countess instead of Duchess because he was himself the actual Duke (Estonia was Danish), or perhaps it was simply a typo of the source and Duchess was the intented title all along. Because of that insecurity I thought ruler was a safer category.--Aciram (talk) 14:43, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Which source? Ref 1:

• Template:Tq
  • Template:Xt The text doesn't actually mention here title, but that Estonia, i.e. the Duchy of Estonia (1219–1346), became her "property for life" means she was a duchess regnant of Estonia. The "duchy" mentioned at the end of the sentence may or may not refer to Estonia, but more likely to Duchy of Schleswig because "Erik Abelsøn" = Eric I, Duke of Schleswig.

Ref 11

• Template:Tq
  • Template:Xt The year "1219" explicitly refers to Duchy of Estonia (1219–1346).

Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:22, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Some literature says that Margaret's title as lifelong owner of Estonia was Template:Xt ("Lady of Estonia"). Sources on p. 104 (82), 105 (83), etc.: Template:Tq

Note that Agnes of Brandenburg is called Template:Tq a little further down the line. This source notes the inconsistency. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:35, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

PS: One hypothesis I have is that having a female duke was such a new concept to the chroniclers that they didn't even have a well-established Latin word for duchess yet. The word ducissa only shows up twice before 1266, namely in 1193/4 for the duchess of Pomerania. and in 1262 for the duchess of Saxony. Apart from Agnes, no other Estonian or Danish monarch is ever called ducissa; it almost literally a foreign concept. They may have chosen domina for Margaret for lack of a better term in Latin. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:44, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Oh good lord, I don't have time to read this, but this is not a hill do die on for me; it is not a big issue for me. I originally wrote this article, and remember that the source said countess and not duchess, otherwise I would not have written it to begin with, but I don't remember which one. I could go through them, but to me, it seems a simple solution to just have her in the ruler category - and if not, I won't protest if she is placed in the duke category since its not a big issue, as this might just be a typo, but I can't swear on it (the ruler-category is always preferable, since most states have had a ruler which did not conform to the title or position to the rest). Have a nice day.--Aciram (talk) 18:02, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your response. I didn't make this decision lightly, I had good reasons for it. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:33, 22 April 2023 (UTC)