Talk:Kherson Oblast

Hatnote to article on Russian administration

A hatnote on the top of this article previously read:

This element was present in the article from at least late October 2024. It was removed yesterday and when I tried to reinstall it, the editor who had removed it reverted me, invoking WP:HATNOTERULES: Template:Tq2

I consider that since there is a Russian administrative entity under the same name of Kherson Oblast, it is entirely possible readers may arrive at this page seeking information regarding the Russian administration, perhaps expecting some sort of hatnote or disambiguation page.

SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 11:22, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

Presumably by “Russian administrative entity” you mean the government/military apparatus that is governing the portions of Kherson occupied by Russian troops. I agree that such an apparatus exists; it does not yet have its own article. No-one is going to confuse this article (which is a place) with an article about a military operation (which is an activity). They fall into entirely separate categories of noun, and such a confusion between, on the one hand, a place, and on the other, activities by soldiers, would be bizarre and is not a reasonable possibility. Cambial — foliar❧ 12:52, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

The governing apparatus is considered a constituent province of the Russian Federation and is named an "oblast", so it is not, in fact, unreasonable that it may be interpreted as a "place". In the absence of an article on the apparatus itself, the most appropriate place to redirect readers is indeed to Russian occupation of Kherson Oblast, which is not just about "activities by soldiers", as you put it; the governing apparatus, is in fact, described in detail in the article's History and Government sections. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 15:09, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

A government is not a place. It is not “Template:Tq” by any reliable secondary sources. Not clear where you got that notion - maybe you consider it as such? That’s irrelevant. Cambial — foliar❧ 15:42, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

Governments generally assert their authority over places. While Russian sovereignty over this territory is widely unrecognized, it is not in dispute that Russia established an administration in the territories under its control, which it then formally annexed and governs as an oblast. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 15:51, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

Reliable sources dispute that it annexed Kherson Oblast. Whether it established an adminsitration is not the same as that it is “Template:Tq”, which is what you claimed, and what is relevant to the question of whether someone might confuse a place and an ongoing military operation taking place in part of it. Cambial — foliar❧ 16:30, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

I do not think it is in dispute that a chain of events culminating in a 30 September 2022 ceremony at the Kremlin resulted in the annexation of some territories to the Russian Federation. It was a unilateral and widely unrecognized annexation, as most tend to be, but an annexation nonetheless. That the action itself took place is not in dispute, rather it is the legitimacy of the move which is in question. Please see Russian annexation of Donetsk, Kherson, Luhansk and Zaporizhzhia oblasts to become aware of the mainstream points of view regarding this event. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 18:03, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

It's not readily clear why you want to pursue the question of whether Kherson Oblast was annexed in 2022. Were it shown that the most reliable sources now state that it was, that would not mean that readers are likely to confuse a region in Ukraine with a military operation by the Russian state.

That said, in the most reliable sources - scholarship - available to us, there is agreement that the Kherson Oblast was not annexed. They report the Russian government claiming as much, but reality differs from the Kremlin's aggrandising fantasies in September 2022. Although you ought to be mindful that Wikipedia is not a source, this is also exactly what the article to which you link states "Template:Teal" [my emphasis] - please read more closely.

From the LSE:

Russia’s attempted annexation of four Ukrainian regions following hastily organised ‘referendums’ has been heavily criticised by politicians in the West.

From an academic reference work on the territories of Russia (2023):. Heaney, ed. 2023 (Introduction):Template:Rp

Between Putin’s presidential inauguration in May 2012 and the end of 2022 a total of 73 of the 83 heads of federal subjects (as the territories are known) were replaced (in addition to the heads of Crimea and Sevastopol, which were annexed in 2014, and those of four Ukrainian regions annexed de jure, if not de facto, in 2022.)...After Crimea and Sevastopol were annexed from Ukraine in 2014, the federal centre repeatedly emphasized internal and external threats to their stability. Particularly around the time of Putin’s March 2018 re-election as President, both territories were lavished with attention. If Russia were ever to achieve similar control over the four territories purportedly annexed from Ukraine in 2022, such focus on their security, too, would seem likely

Section "The Impact on the Regions of the 2022 Invasion of Ukraine":Template:Rp

Indeed, on 30 September the Kremlin claimed that more regions had come under its control when Putin announced the annexation of four Ukrainian regions: the so-called ‘People’s Republics’ established in the eastern Ukrainian cities of Donetsk and Luhansk (Lugansk) by pro-Russian forces as long ago as 2014, and the southern Ukrainian oblasts of Kherson and Zaporizhzhya (Zaporozhye), despite Russian control of all of these territories being by no means assured.

Section "The Government of the Russian Federation"Template:Rp

In March 2014 Russia annexed two territories internationally recognized as constituting parts of Ukraine—the Republic of Crimea and Sevastopol City— bringing the de facto membership of the Federation to 85 territories. In September 2022, following its invasion of Ukraine, Russia announced the annexation of a further four territories within that country—the Donetsk and Lugansk People's Republics (established by pro-Russian forces in 2014) and Kherson and Zaporozhye (Zaporizhzhya) Oblasts, amending Article 65 of the Constitution accordingly. However, these annexations were, like those of Crimea and Sevastopol, not internationally recognized, and moreover substantial regions of these territories remained disputed or under Ukrainian state control, as the Russian–Ukrainian conflict continued...between 2005 and 2008 the number of territories was reduced from 89 to 83. Including the two territories in Crimea, the 85 territories comprise 22 republics, nine krais (provinces), 46 oblasts (regions), three cities of federal status (Moscow, St Petersburg and Sevastopol), one autonomous oblast and four autonomous okrugs. Of these, the republics, autonomous okrugs and the autonomous oblast are (sometimes nominally) ethnically defined.

"announced the annexation" "purportedly annexed", "annexed de jure, if not de facto" - not in fact. There is a fundamental difference between one government claiming a thing and that thing actually being the case. Cambial — foliar❧ 20:02, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

Putting the semantics on annexation vs. claimed annexation aside, would you deny that for the past two and a half years an entity calling itself the Kherson Oblast, acting in the role of a constituent oblast of the Russian Federation, has exerted its authority over lands between Crimea and the Dnieper River? SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 00:44, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

The ostensible governance structure of the occupying army refers to itself as “Правительство Херсонской области” meaning “Government of Kherson Oblast”. That’s different to simply “Kherson Oblast” - the region they purport to govern. It’s not relevant to how we write this website. We base it on reliable secondary sources, and use the nomenclature used therein. The region they purportedly govern is the same region as the subject of this article: it doesn’t require a povfork elsewhere, as has already been established by community consensus. Cambial — foliar❧ 08:07, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

While the nomenclature the Russian governing body in this region uses for itself need not necessarily inform article titles, it is certainly is not something to be ignored for the purpose of disambiguation through hatnotes. You say you have seen no evidence the Russian puppet government uses the words Kherson Oblast as a name for the governance structure itself. Consider the following use of the terminology within internal Russian local government structures.

"Security Service serves notice of suspicion on pro-Russian lawyer turned member of occupation "government" in Kherson", Ukrainian Pravda:

Template:Tq2

"SBU declared the suspicion to the former lawyer of Medvedchuk and Sharii — Rybin. He became an occupation official in the Kherson region", Babel:

Template:Tq2

"Lists with the collaborator names were discovered in Kherson", Militarnyi:

Template:Tq2

"Operational information from the regions of the Active Hromada network 17/11/2022", Active Hromada:

Template:Tq2

"SSU identifies 31 more collaborators who tortured Ukrainian patriots in Kherson region", Obozrevatel.UA:

Template:Tq2

"In the Kherson region, a former law enforcement officer who worked for the Russian occupiers was exposed", Ministry of Internal Affairs of Ukraine:

Template:Tq2 SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 10:47, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

Those aren't evidence of sources confusing the place "Kherson Oblast" with "Government of Kherson Oblast". Nor are readers remotely likely to do so, as Nurg points out below. We don't have a hatnote at United States for Federal Government of the United States, nor do we have a hatnote at Fife for Fife Council. A place and its government are two distinct things. The vast majority of people are able to distinguish the two things without even thinking about it. Cambial — foliar❧ 10:56, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

The so-called "Kherson Oblast of the Russian Federation", to which the sources above refer, is a distinct subject from the topic of this article which is the Kherson Oblast of Ukraine. I cannot agree with your assertion that Template:Tq [the Russians] Template:Tq. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 11:16, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

They’re not distinct. It’s the same region of the world. Cambial — foliar❧ 13:35, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

Not only are they administrative divisions (recognized or unrecognized) of two different countries; they don't share the same borders. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 13:43, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

It sounds like you want there to be an article about “Kherson Oblast (Russia)” There is no such article, because it was determined by consensus that most people think the idea stupid and inappropriate. Twice. Cambial — foliar❧ 15:59, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

I think the title of this talk page section and my comments here make it pretty clear I'm advocating for including a hatnote on this article, not for creating an article. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 16:15, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

Then one naturally wonders why you expend so much text trying to argue that there is a second (Russian) Kherson Oblast. The response to your proposal remains the same as Nurg says below: Template:Tq Cambial — foliar❧ 17:59, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

The user Nurg might have misinterpreted what I'm saying. The hatnote I'm proposing isn't intended for people looking for the article on the Russian occupation of Kherson Oblast. It's for people who expect that there is an article on the Russian Federation administrative division called the Kherson Oblast. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 18:04, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

But there is no such article. So there’s nothing to hatlink to. Information about such a topic would be included here, if it were appropriate. Cambial — foliar❧ 18:12, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

See Russian occupation of Kherson Oblast#Government. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 18:30, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

That’s a section about the military occupation’s leadership structure. Nobody would reasonably think that an article on the leadership structure of the Russian occupation of Kherson Oblast would be titled "Kherson Oblast". Cambial — foliar❧ 18:36, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

Is Vladimir Saldo part of the "military occupation's leadership structure" or is he called the Governor of the Kherson Oblast?

Disingenuous of you to represent this section as Template:Tq, which completely ignores that it also contains a sub-section on the "administrative divisions" of "Kherson Oblast", and a map of the "Kherson Oblast". SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 18:46, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

The presence of a map on an article does not mean that a reader would reasonably think that an section on the leadership/governance of the Russian occupation of Kherson Oblast would be titled "Kherson Oblast". The tortured logic of your argument has become so strained that I don’t think further discussion is likely to be productive. I, like Nurg, remain opposed to an inappropriate hatnote to the article about the Russian military occupation. There is a link in the lead. Cambial — foliar❧ 20:12, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

A final question for you, then: what does the governance of the Russian occupation of Kherson Oblast call itself? All my best SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 20:30, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

The answer to that question is already in a previous comment. It’s that kind of circularity that indicates this is well past the point of potentially being productive. Cambial — foliar❧ 21:08, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

Your position seems to be that there only exist two governments of the same Ukrainian oblast; my position is that since one is, for all intents and purposes, part of Russia, there currently exist, in effect, two distinct "oblast" entities. I look forward to reading other editors' stances. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 21:22, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

No, my position is that no-one is confusing a place and a military operation, so a hatnote is inappropriate. Cambial — foliar❧ 21:37, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

The place is the self-described Kherson Oblast of Russia. It is not a military operation. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 21:44, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

Nobody would reasonably think that an article on the Russian occupation of Kherson Oblast would be titled "Kherson Oblast". Even if by some bizarre mindset they did, there's a link in the 2nd paragraph. The hatnote is not necessary. Nurg (talk) 23:46, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

I propose that some readers may be looking for the Russian administrative entity which calls itself "Kherson Oblast", or may at least be attempting to navigate to a page about it. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 00:43, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

Having scrolled through a discussion, I would suggest that your proposing is a clear WP:POV. 78.81.123.235 (talk) 14:08, 14 June 2025 (UTC)