Talk:In pectore

Comment

Wasn't Pope Leo X also originally named cardinal in pectore? 4 Mar 2013 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.132.146.220 (talk) 08:47, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

He was not. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 20:12, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

Comment

Can someone explain why a Pope would do this? I don't understand what good a Cardinal can do if nobody knows he's a Cardinal. Thanks! FreplySpang (talk) 14:44, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This would be done if the place this cardinal was going to work in was a dangerous environment for a Catholic. Such as China, where Catholics (and Christians in general) are not formally tolerated, and the presence of a Cardinal would at least lead to him getting imprisoned (and probably shot). It does say this in the article.

Some of the catholics in the area would know that a secret cardinal had been appointed, although obviously secrecy would be vital, and they would very probably not know his identity.

The cardinal would also then be able to communicate back to the Vatican on the situation for Catholics in that country, and allow the church to work with an increased knowledge on improving tolerance of Catholicism - and Christianity in general - in that country.

Proto 10:21, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Why was the Archbishop of Riga created in pectore in 1998? Has the Latvian government been persecuting Catholics? john k 16:08, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

As it is not quite clear:

Would *some* in pectore Cardinals know that they have been appointed?

Have there been any cases of problems arising because it is known to the authorities that there is an in pectore cardinal but not who he is?

For those who are into such things, and with a suitable background knowledge, this could provide a useful starting point for some speculative fiction.

Jackiespeel 14:16, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

One other unpublished 20th-century cardinal

Currently, the article says that the only 20th-century case of expired "in pectore" appointment was that of the 3 cardinals named as such in 1960. The FIU cardinals site says that there were 2 cardinals named "in pectore" in 1916 and only one (Adolf Bertram) was eventually published. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.82 (talk) 19:50, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

I'll proceed with the expired in-pectore appointment (had been made 1916 by Benedict XV). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.82 (talk) 16:13, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes. Added now. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 20:25, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

Strange

Indeed the article does not make clear if an in pectore cardinal himself is notified, however secretly, that he has been made a cardinal. It is obvious that such appointments are made "in the eyes of God", therefore secular notification is unnecessary per se; still I would imagine that even He would not choose to ignore common courtesies.  :-) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.1.225.95 (talk) 15:26, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Pope Martin V

I don't know much about the history of this stuff, but on the article Papal conclave, 1431 it says that Pope Martin V initiated the custom of creating cardinals without published their name right away, and links here. But in this article it says Pope Paul III was the first to initiate this custom. Someone who knows more about this stuff should probably fix this. Wgunther (talk) 02:05, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes. Miranda doesn't think Martin V made in pectore appointments because he shared the information (he says they were "known to the other cardinals", but there's a good source that calls Martin's appointments in pectore. Martin certainly didn't publish them initially and did publish them later, which seems just what we'd expect for in pectore appointments. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 20:28, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

A question

The article doesn't make it clear how the process of creating "in pectore" cardinals occurs. Does the Pope, at a consistory, declare "I wish to create x amount of cardinals" (or some other phrase) without disclosing the name(s) of the cardinal(s) created, revealing them at a later date? 101090ABC (talk) 13:08, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

That's exactly what happens. See this New York Times report. "Pope John Paul II named 14 new cardinals today, including his new Vatican Secretary of State. The Pope said he had chosen a 15th cardinal “in pectore” — in his heart — and there was speculation that the unidentified cardinal was from a Communist country." Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 20:38, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

Term used at 2015's Wikimania

See Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2015-07-22/Wikimanía report (as of 21:42, 24 July 2015): Template:Quote davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 23:06, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

www.catholic-hierarchy.org appears to state Pope Leo X Giovanni de’ Medici was Elevated to Cardinal "In Pectore" 9 Mar 1489

www.catholic-hierarchy.org appears to state Pope Leo X Giovanni de’ Medici was Elevated to Cardinal "In Pectore" 9 Mar 1489 If true, this page should be upated. http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/bdeme.html Pope Leo X Giovanni de’ Medici

9 Mar 1489 13.2 Elevated to Cardinal In Pectore 23 Mar 1489 13.2 Appointed Cardinal-Deacon of Santa Maria in Domnica 26 Mar 1492 16.2 Elevated to Cardinal 9 Mar 1513 37.2 Elected Pope (Roma {Rome}, Italy)

http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/event/cs1492.html Pope Pius III (Francesco Todeschini-Piccolomini) Consistory - 26 March 1492 Published (Previously a Cardinal In Pectore): Giovanni de’ Medici http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/event/cs1492.html

http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/event/cs1489.html Consistory - 9 March 1489 Pope: Innocent VIII (Giovanni Battista Cibo) Created Cardinal: Lorenzo Cibo de’ Mari †, Archbishop of Benevento, Italy Ardicino della Porta (Jr.) †, Bishop of Aleria, France Antonio Gentile Pallavicini †, Bishop of Orense, Spain André d’Espinay †, Archbishop of Bordeaux, France Pierre d’Aubusson, O.S.Io.Hieros. †, Grand Master of Sovereign Military Hospitaller Order of St John of Jerusalem Maffeo Gherardi, O.S.B. †, Patriarch of Venezia {Venice}, Italy Giovanni de’ Medici † Federico Sanseverino †, Administrator of Maillezais, France

YourHumbleServant (talk) 03:57, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

'Open secret in defiance [and] to stake out a position'?

'or, when the identity of the new cardinal is an open secret, to signal defiance of government opposition or stake out a diplomatic or moral position. '

How does this make sense? To signal defiance, you'd have to openly declare what you are doing, not conceal it. Likewise to 'stake out a moral position' - if you are not openly declaring what you are doing, you are not making your 'moral position' clear. It seems like the exact opposite - not publicising the name of the appointed cardinal would be the result of not daring to defy government opposition openly and to do what you (claim to) consider 'moral' openly. This could charitably be called 'a diplomatic position', but the rest is from opposite world. 62.73.72.3 (talk) 10:09, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Pope Francis, final count

Greetings,

@Luokehao, you have updated the article to indicate that Pope Francis never made any appointments in pectore. I believe this to be the case, but your cited source is out-of-date and does not cover the final two consistories in 2023 and 2024. Perhaps @Dcheney can corroborate this assertion? Perhaps Catholic-Hierarchy, or some other site, can serve as an updated source that can tie a bow on this record, please? 2600:8800:1E8F:BE00:F1B:A2D3:7B56:A9CF (talk) 06:11, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

According to current Canon Law 351 §3, the Pope should announce that he has appointed a Cardinal In Pectore at the time (just not any identifying information). No such announcement was made by Pope Francis. I suspect you'll have a hard time finding a "reliable source" that will state the obvious that he did not create any. Dcheney (talk) 11:43, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

Well, it's a bit Wikipedia:PRIMARY and possibly even Wikipedia:SYNTH, but surely we can string together every consistory he convoked and point out that none of them included in pectore announcements, and then we simply say that there was no announcement. It is not like he convoked an overwhelming number of them. In the end, it's simple math, yes? 0 + 0 + 0 = 0. 2600:8800:1E8F:BE00:1325:B8FF:E2C0:83E (talk) 17:50, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

Sadly I think that would be considered original research - something Wiki doesn't like. Dcheney (talk) 23:10, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

It is obvious. My aim was a simple update to point out that there has not been an appointment for over two decades Luokehao (talk) 11:50, 26 May 2025 (UTC)