Talk:Ice hockey

Fighting the overbloat

... and once again, the article's getting bloated with all manner of tangential stuff, and is approaching 150 kilobytes. Folks, the object isn't to write a scholarly book on ice hockey; there are plenty of those, many of them cited. It's to write a thorough encyclopedia entry. WP:UNDUE enjoins us to consider the quantity of the text, and leave out what the article doesn't need. I'll start wielding the scalpel -- again -- but no one should be adding stuff to the article just because there hasn't been anything added in a day or three. Ravenswing 13:27, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

Removed bloated, useless, redundant section on women's hockey. Someone can start a separate article if they think it is worth it. The two minor differences between the men's and women's game, checking and equipment, doesn't warrant this much attention. Glad to be of help. CheckersBoard (talk) 22:22, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

• Which you aren't being; you're being downright pointy, and your frequent disruption is getting into topic ban-country. Ravenswing 04:22, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
  • If I’m not mistaken, the article history shows there used to be a short section on women's hockey that CheckersBoard expanded into something much longer via multiple strings of edits beginning last August. 1995hoo (talk) 12:45, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Canadian Encyclopedia online may no longer be a valid source

It appears this entry dated June 25, 2020 in the Canadian Encyclopedia (online version) regarding the origin of ice hockey is already out of date, if not outright biased and wrong. [1] It might be best to avoid using it a source when dealing with ice hockey's origins until it is updated again:

"In 2008, the International Ice Hockey Federation (IIHF) officially declared that the first game of organized ice hockey was played in Montreal in 1875. Many also consider ice hockey’s first rules to have been published by the Montreal Gazette in 1877. However, research reveals that organized ice hockey/bandy games were first played on skates in England and that the earliest rules were also published in England. Canada made important contributions to the game from the 1870s on. By the early 20th century, "Canadian rules" had reshaped the sport."

"...and that the earliest rules were also published in England...", "made important contributions to the game", "...Canadian rules reshaped the sport..."? Wrong. Before ice hockey and bandy, a variety of related informal skating team games which preceded both sports were played in various parts of North America and Europe. The earliest rules for ice hockey were not published in England, those rules were the precursors to organized bandy which has its own codes/rules. Apparently somewhere in the 1920's bandy received the name it is known by now (when and by whom, I don't know) to eliminate confusion with ice hockey which had developed in North America. Bandy used a field of ice and a bandy ball, ice hockey used an ice rink and a puck, this is a big difference...even bandy goalnets are massive by comparison, it's a field sport on ice. "Canadian rules" did not "contribute" anything, Canadian rules did not "reshape the sport"...these developments marked the formal beginning of a new organized sport itself which is now ice hockey. Organized bandy is a separate sport still played today; in essence it "disappeared" from North America because it never formalized its codes there, that was the UK. So no, ice hockey didn't reshape or contribute squat, it's just a different sport. CheckersBoard (talk) 03:19, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

This page just seems desperate to redefine any early hockey as something other than Ice Hockey to clutch at the claim that Canadians invented it. The fact is the oldest Ice Hockey tournaments still running today started with English teams and English rules, its enough that Canada took it and ran with it and now it is quintessentially Canadian. There is no need to try and rewrite history. 82.6.32.114 (talk) 19:01, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Unsourced european origins

The whole history section claiming Ice Hockey had white european origins is largely unsourced and sloppy. It also did not inlude its black canadian origins. Can we get a discussion on this?

Pinging Template:Ping since they are on this page apparently. MayDay2099 (talk) 21:41, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Certainly. What "black canadian" origins do you fancy existed, and what are your sources backing up the same? Beyond that, far from being "largely unsourced," there are over FOUR DOZEN sources listed in the History section of the article. Did you just not read it? With that being said, erm ... the Colored Hockey League was founded decades after organized hockey play started in North America, and the degree to which it had little to no tangible effect on the progress of the sport comes from it having dropped so thoroughly into obscurity that most hockey historians had no idea it had ever existed. Ravenswing 06:48, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

I don't "Fancy" having a level headed discussion with you Ravenswing.

All portions claiming european origins are unsourced and marked as citation needed. That is all. A source is needed or those areas or it should be removed, as this page is miles more important than a random video game page.

Colored hockey league is more sourced than the other stuff MayDay2099 (talk) 18:56, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

None of the sources you added on the Colored Hockey League claim that they invented the game of ice hockey. Ice hockey already existed when the league began. So the game did not originate with that league, lack of cited sources about its European origin notwithstanding. BilCat (talk) 19:55, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

That section is heavily sourced, which is what led me to question whether you'd actually read it. As far as the importance of this page goes, yes, those of us who've been editing and contributing to it for many years are aware. (For my part, I don't edit video game articles, and leave discussion of those to editors who care.) I realize that you are very new to Wikipedia, but you should understand the necessity of obtaining a consensus for such changes, as well as conducting a civil discussion on your issues. Ravenswing 01:06, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

I can count 5 seperate "Citation needed" blurbs and many of them start and end in the areas claiming the sport to be of european medieval origin. This claim is ridiculously unsourced for a page of this importance and should not be there if you cannot source it.

Its recorded european occurances can be in the page and does not require the claim it is purely european origin for said occurances to be acceptable

If such a source exists, or is already there, I suggest you fix it yourself since you're going against my suggestion on those very grounds.

And opening this discussion in and of itself is an attempt to gather consensus for my suggested changes. I have no idea why your holding that over me like I am breaking any rules when I am following your rules. MayDay2099 (talk) 04:28, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Good grief: let me make this as simple as I can for you. Take a look at Ice_hockey#Name. You might notice that the various statements of precursors in that section have five different sources (if you exclude the 1527 Statute of Galway, which can be looked up independently). You could then take a look at Ice_hockey#Precursors. Seven of the sources there refer to European origins. You might also look at the two 17th century Dutch paintings to the right hand side, depicting hockey-like play. Ravenswing 10:00, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

This doesn't rectify the many unsourced portions, which is the only issue I had. You are trying to turn this into something else.

Like I said, this discussion in and of itself is me gathering consensus. More people can come to talk if they please. If you cannot source the unsourced sections, and nobody else objects with a reason that either makes sense to me, or enough of the other folks here, I will either remove or heavily edit them to reflect what is sourced. MayDay2099 (talk) 19:00, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Split history section into History of ice hokey

That section is quite long. I suggest we summarize it here, while copying the current text to a dedicated subarticle. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:23, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support creation of a separate article for history. A number of other sports have separate articles for history (ex. History of basketball) or even history in a certain country (ex. History of football in Brazil). The suggested split would also help to address the bloat of this article. Spitzmauskc (talk) 20:51, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

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