Talk:Hindi

Query

@Foreverknowledge

Sir, My last change does not contradict the agreed narrative. Then how my particular change is not sensed? Jabirttk351 (talk) 10:40, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

It was ungrammatical. Largoplazo (talk) 11:35, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

In addition to being ungrammatical it also doesn’t make sense. Hindustani has had various related meanings over time. Hindustani has meant: a) the Khariboli lingua franca, b) Urdu, and c) modern Hindi. This section is discussing the development of Hindustani/Khariboli lingua franca to Hindi. @Jabirttk351 You appear to be discussing Hindustani as a synonym for Urdu which doesn’t make sense in the context of this article. Foreverknowledge (talk) 12:47, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

@Foreverknowledge ////Hindustani or Hindavi had a grammar like Modern Hindi and the script is like Modern Urdu. This same language was started to refer as Urdu when Emperor of Hindostan, Shah Alam IITemplate:Efn popularised it in Shahr-e-Urdu-e-Mualla-e-Shahjahanabad (Modern day Old Delhi) by speaking it informally in his royal court. As a result Hindi/Hindavi/Hindustani synonymously was called Zuban-e Urdu-e mualla-e-Shahjahanabad or Zuban-e-Urdu. ////

So Hindustani/Hindavi/Hindi was called Urdu long before Modern register Urdu. Jabirttk351 (talk) 09:51, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Urdu as a language name appeared in the 1770s which is when the modern register of Urdu was developing. In addition, Modern Hindi and Urdu share the same grammar, while the script used for Hindustani has been Devanagari, Perso-Arabic, and several others. So what you are saying is ungrammatical and doesn’t make sense at all. Foreverknowledge (talk) 08:17, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

@Foreverknowledge Here is the thing.

According to own identification of Emperor Shah Alam II, that tongue was Hindi, not Urdu as we solely identify today.

The first Quran translation of Urdu was done around 1828. But that translation mentions that it was being done in Hindi.

So the conclusion you've provided is not actually 100% right.

If you take the bible translation of 1842 in Hindustani language, then it is easy to conclude Hindustani register was written only in Perso-Arabic. Jabirttk351 (talk) 09:43, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

The name Hindi was previously used for any Indian language, including Hindustani (from which modern Urdu and modern Hindi emerged). It was also a name for modern Urdu itself during the 18th-19th centuries. As for Hindustani, some chose to write it in Perso-Arabic script, some chose Devanagari. I can point out many examples of Hindustani written in Devanagari. Language and script were not closely intertwined in pre-modern times. One of the sources you cited says: “Hindavi/Hindustani, written in Perso-Arabic script, came to be called Urdu, and when written in Devnagari, it became Hindi.” Foreverknowledge (talk) 10:06, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't want to be repetetive, so I just link to an earlier comment of mine (in reaction to a different claim, but also applicable here):[1]. The clumsy phrasing introduced by @Jabirttk351 is little helpful as it insinuates different things instead of just two different terms for the same thing. –Austronesier (talk) 10:18, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree it’s a clumsy phrasing and is little helpful. For your linked comment, I agree with parts of it. I can get into the details of that if it becomes relevant here. Foreverknowledge (talk) 12:51, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

@Foreverknowledge

///“Hindavi/Hindustani, written in Perso-Arabic script, came to be called Urdu, and when written in Devnagari, it became Hindi.”///

That is around 1900. Even in 1862 Mirza Ghalib says his tongue is Hindi. In 1903 Allama iqbal have said his tongue is Hindi. So Hindustani, Hindi and Urdu were synonymous prior to register Urdu and Hindi.

///As for Hindustani, some chose to write it in Perso-Arabic script, some chose Devanagari///

Here is the thing there was no unified devaNagree prior to Fort William of British East India company. Earlier Devanagre was known to Kashi Nagree script. There were various types of Nagree scripts. In Bihar, Eastern UP local tongue was written in Kaithi. In Maharastra local tongue was for Modi script. So Bhojpuri written in Kaithi, Awadhi written in kashi nagree, Marathi written in Modi script. So the lingua franca Hindustani/Hindi/Hindwi/Dihlawi of Khadi-boli (Urdu) was never written in any other scripts other than Perso-Arabic.

Modern Hindi is the result of throwing out Arabic and Persian vocabularies from Original Hindi/Hindavi/Hindustani/Urdu. Jabirttk351 (talk) 11:13, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

What you have written is demonstrably false. Urdu already emerged as a register by the 18th century and Hindi by the 19th century. This was all before Alama Iqbal. The nomenclature had not fully settled into place. His might be the sole example of Hindi used as a name for Urdu in the 20th century.

Devanagari has a long continuous use of around 1000 years. Kaithi, Modi, etc. are related scripts.They are considered Nagari scripts because they all descend from a script called Nagari that was in use during the 1st millennium A.D. Hindustani has been written in Devanagari and various other scripts besides Perso-Arabic. This is a fact. Foreverknowledge (talk) 12:48, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

@Foreverknowledge

////What you have written is demonstrably false. Urdu already emerged as a register by the 18th century and Hindi by the 19th century.////

In 18th century Urdu register has emerged on not by on Urdu name but on Hindi name. Look at Tarikh e Gharibi of 1757

-logo ko jab khul batave,

Hindi main keh kar samjhave."

So Hindi/Hindustani/Hindwi existed long before Sanskritized pilot project Hindi of Fort William. What I am trying to say that Urdu under the name Hindi/Hindustani/Hindwi predated to Neo Brahmanic Hindi.

///Devanagari has a long continuous use of around 1000 years.///

Devanagari of British era and Devanagari of Modern India are not same at all. Recently "झ" letter has been changed. In 1950s अ, आ, ण, ख letters have been borrowed from Siddhant lipi to Replace similar letter of Sharda lipi in Devanagari.

Any language or script even is a result of CONTINUATION of it's historic past. No dout Hindustani/Urdu has the same. But the thing is we should not attribute any term to the past when that term was not used in that respective people.

Like: Amir khusroo himself used Hindavi term to identify his language and Pandit Tulsi Dwivedi, a contemporary of Samrat Akbar used Braj and Awadhi terms to identify his tongue. But today Amir khusroo has become "Urdu" poet (which he did not heard) and Pandit Tulsi Dwivedi has become Hindi poet (which he did not claim). So the whole modern narrative is factually ahistorical. Jabirttk351 (talk) 05:40, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Regarding your proposed edits, three users have already opposed your changes so you don’t have a consensus. But to address your comments for hopefully the last time:

-Urdu as a language name emerged around the 1770s, first used by the poet Mushafi.

-Hindi/Hindustani/Hindvi (the lingua franca from which modern Urdu and modern Hindi emerged) has been used since roughly the 12th-13th centuries.

-Modern Urdu (which was also variously referred to as Hindi/Hindustani/Hindvi) has been used since the 18th century.

-Modern Hindi (which was also variously referred to as Hindi/Hindustani/Hindvi) has been used since the 19th century.

-Let’s stick to accepted nomenclature instead of coining new terms (“Neo Brahmanic Hindi”) based on your personal whim.

-Both sets of variant characters have been used in Devanagari for centuries. In the 20th century, one set was declared the standard and the other fell out of use. Secondly, modification of a few characters or declaring one as standard doesn’t make it a new script. Characters have been modified in the Roman script used for English over time but it’s still the same script. Nun Ghunna was added relatively recently to Urdu (not found in Platts for example) but that doesn’t make it a different script. Same is true for Devanagari.

-Here is an enlightening article for you to read about the history of Hindustani/Hindavi in various scripts including Devanagari and Perso-Arabic. Foreverknowledge (talk) 06:29, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

We can't talk about one thing while changing the name we use for it constantly depending on which decade or century we're referring to at the moment or the usage of each respective historical person we're referencing. There are even many peoples/languages we can't talk about using the names given to them by the peoples/speakers themselves because we don't know what those names were. The article should consistenly use the terminology of today.

Aside from that, this has become repetitive. It might be a good idea to drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass. Largoplazo (talk) 21:28, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

• Template:Tq – Just passing by. This is very inaccurate. Hindi was definitely used as an alias for the Urdu language, and continued to be used even as far as early 20th century. Same time as when the Modern Hindi movement became popular in British India. نعم البدل (talk) 17:28, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

  What is inaccurate about it? Besides Iqbal, who else used Hindi as a name for Urdu in the 20th century? Foreverknowledge (talk) 19:43, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

References

कैसा - Fairy?

I can’t edit the article but I don’t believe the English word “fairy” is representative of the vowel sound “कैसा” makes. Maybe a word like “bed” would work better? Florian7001 (talk) 04:29, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

"fairy" is spoken with [eə] in "normal" english which is very similar to [ɛ:].

bed is spoken with [e].

-- seth (talk) 08:11, 8 April 2025 (UTC)

Topic

@Austronesier I only replaced repeated content "sanscritized register of the Hindustani" language (repeated 2 times) with per def at Britannica. Doing this I also reverted the article to the stable version before undiscussed changes this year here, same as on Urdu. Axedd (talk) 13:30, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

@Austronesier Should I change the lead back to original without other additions I made if those were the ones you were objecting to? Same as on Urdu. The other additions I made on Urdu was to change originating from Ganges plain to originating in the 12 century in northwest India as Delhi (where Urdu originated) is not on the Ganges plain. Axedd (talk) 18:56, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Hindi is fiji's official language

1. Constitutional Recognition Fiji’s supreme law explicitly names Hindustani—understood as standard Hindi—alongside English and Fijian as the country’s three official languages. Translations of the Constitution are made available in iTaukei and Hindi (Devanagari script), and citizens may conduct legal and parliamentary business in any of these three languages, with the English text prevailing only where there is doubt. There is no mention of the colloquial Fiji Hindi dialect in the constitutional text.

2. Government Publication & Usage The Fijian Government routinely publishes core documents (including the Constitution itself) and public health updates in standard Hindi (Devanagari). The official government portal provides the Constitution in a Hindi translation for legal reference—demonstrating that the state engages with the formal register of Hindi in all its institutions.

3. Education & Curriculum Policy Formal education in Fiji treats standard Hindi as the formal medium for teacher training and secondary instruction. Fiji National University’s Bachelor of Education (Secondary) program, for example, requires entrants to demonstrate proficiency in English and Hindi (Devanagari)—underscoring that the “Hindi” of instruction is the standardized form taught internationally, not the localized dialect.

4. Linguistic Scholarship & Distinction Academic research makes clear that the Constitution’s term “Hindustani” refers to the formal Hindi-Urdu register originating from the Indian subcontinent. Fiji Hindi is a distinct koiné dialect that developed locally among indentured labourers; it enjoys widespread everyday use but lacks any constitutional or legal standing.

5. Equal Citizen Rights Under Chapter 1, Section 3(3–4) of the Constitution, citizens have the right to use iTaukei, English, or Hindi (Hindustani) in all government and judicial proceedings. This provision places standard Hindi on an equal footing with Fiji’s other official languages—affirming its formal status in the state apparatus.

Sources - Constitution of the Republic of Fiji (English) https://www.laws.gov.fj/ResourceFile/Get/?fileName=2013+Constitution+of+Fiji+%28English%29.pdf

Constitution of the Republic of Fiji Islands (Hindi Translation, Devanagari) https://www.paclii.org/fj/constitutional-docs-archives/Constitution%20of%20the%20Republic%20of%20Fiji%20Islands%20%28Hindi%29.pdf

Fiji National University: Bachelor of Education (Secondary) – English & Hindi https://programmes.fnu.ac.fj/programmes/Files/2019122313210Bachelor%20of%20Education%20%28Secondary%29%20%28English%20_and_%20Hindi%29%20.pdf

Kumar, R. (2018). Fiji Hindi in Fiji. Academia.edu https://www.academia.edu/36804807/Fiji_Hindi_in_Fiji

Shameem, N. (2017). “Fiji Hindi: A Heritage Language of Fiji Indians.” USP Repository https://repository.usp.ac.fj/id/eprint/13951/1/16-FijiHindiAheritagelanguage%20copy.pdf

PacLII: Fiji Constitutional Documents Archive https://www.paclii.org/fj/constitutional-docs-archives/main.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Theoneandonlylinguist09 (talk • contribs) 11:39, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

Also ths proves that standard hindi is used in education - https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ1328357.pdf ". Fiji Hindi is most often the first language of the Indo-Fijians. However, Standard Hindi is formally recognised as the standard language" "Vishwa Hindu Parishad, and Shree Sanatan Dharam Pratinidhi Sabha of Fiji provided a unified approach to convince the Minister for Education to remove Fiji Hindi from the Hindi national examination papers." THIS PROVES FIJI HINDI IS NOT FIJIS OFFICIAL LANGUAGE

AGAIN HERE - https://eric.ed.gov/?id=EJ1328357 Results showed that Fiji Hindi is preferred in social settings … and Standard Hindi is preferred in formal settings

Indo‑Fijians speak Fiji Hindi… learn Shudh Hindi (SH) or Urdu… for formal and literacy purposes https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0738059306000332 Study: Multilingual Proficiency in Fiji Primary Schools

Highlights:

“Indo‑Fijians speak Fiji Hindi as their mother tongue… learn Shudh Hindi/Urdu… SH/Urdu is the educationally acceptable mother tongue for use as the ‘vernacular’ language of instruction…” https://www.academia.edu/36609364/Curriculum_Development_Challenges_in_Advancing_Conversational_Languages_in_Fijian_Classrooms

FIJI HINDI is not the official language — Preceding unsigned comment added by Theoneandonlylinguist09 (talk • contribs) 12:00, 15 June 2025 (UTC)