Talk:Flechette

Current Usage

The article gives the impression that flechettes are from dusty history books, —how cute!— and devalues current usage. The article says in total about current American usage:

The 70 mm Hydra 70 rocket currently in service with the US Armed forces can be fitted with an anti-personnel (APERS) warhead containing 96 flechettes.[citation needed] They are carried by attack helicopters such as the AH-64 Apache and the AH-1 Cobra.

Here's some of what I found:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydra_70#Common_warheads

The Hydra 70 rocket is a 2.75-inch fin-stabilized unguided rocket used primarily in the air-to-ground role. It can be equipped with a variety of warheads, and in more recent versions, guidance systems for point attacks. The Hydra is widely used by US and allied forces,...Warheads:

Designation	Description	         Weight	                          Payload	
M255	   APERS (anti-personnel)		             2500 28 grains (1.8 g) flechettes		
M255E1/A1	Flechette 	    14.0 pounds (6.4 kg  1179 60 grains (3.9 g) flechettes	
WDU-4/A 	APERS 	            9.3 pounds (4.2 kg)   96 flechettes of unknown weight		
WDU-4A/A	APERS 	            9.3 pounds (4.2 kg)  2205 20 grains (1.3 g) flechettes	

Boeing AH-64 Apache - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_AH-64D

The Boeing AH-64 Apache is an American four-blade, ... During Operation Desert Storm on 17 January 1991...The Apaches each carried an asymmetric load of Hydra 70 flechette rockets, Hellfires, ...

http://hasanudin-adien.blogspot.com/2013/04/hydra-70-rocket-system-united-states-of.html

Hydra-70 rocket system is ...the most commonly used helicopter-launched weapon system in the world.
[Among] the nine warheads used with Hydra-70 include the ...M255A1 Flechette containing 1,179 60-grain hardened steel flechettes. It is used against light material and personnel targets. Upon firing,...
The rocket system can be installed on most rotary and fixed-wing aircraft, such as the AH-64 Apache, AH-1Z Viper, AH-1 Cobra, OH-58 Kiowa, UH-60 Black Hawk, P-3 Orion, MH-6 Little Bird, A-10 Thunderbolt II, AV-8B Harrier II, UH-1 Iroquois, F-4 Phantom II, F-16 Fighting Falcon, F/A-18 Hornet, OV-10 Bronco, A-4 Skyhawk and A-6 Intruder.
The latest order from the US Army, placed in February 2013, is valued at $224m. GDATP will supply Hydra-70 rockets and...

Notice that's just the U.S. Hydra-70 rocket system usage. One can now buy one pound of flechettes for about US$35. Cheers!
--2602:306:CFCE:1EE0:7503:4FF:E70D:33B0 (talk) 05:13, 26 October 2017 (UTC)Doug Bashford

Human Rights Violation

I am removing the claim that these weapons "are considered a human rights violation". The citation indicates that a single lobby group has so claimed, without reference to any human rights law that the weapons allegedly violate.

If that's sufficient to establish that they "are considered a human rights violation", then I should be able to add "is considered fraudulent" to the 2020 US Presidential election, which I could support with 20 or more citations no less credible. 31.125.75.71 (talk) 03:35, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Lazy Dog bombs

Why are there two paragraphs about the Lazy Dog bombs used “later“ by the US? These are not flechettes and there is a separate article about lazy dog bombs. I would think that at most they warrant a single sentence pointing to the separate article. How about “The United States copied the principle in the creation of projectiles they called Lazy Dog bombs.”

The rest of the article is about applications in US small arms, artillery and rockets. While the name might have been copied, to me these are distinctly different from true flechettes and have more in common with the case shot used in smoothbore cannon.

That leaves the article with little more than the first two or three sentences. However, more information could be added about the use of true flechettes. For example, given the name of French origin can we confirm that they are a French invention? Are there any names and dates associated with that? Were they then adopted by the British, the Germans, the Americans, and others, and if so when? I recall reading that WW1 pilots carried a supply of flechettes which they dropped over the side when they flew over enemy lines, and that despite the millions of them dropped in World War I there is no record of any soldier having been hit by a flechette. I’ll include that if I can find a source. Finally, did such flechettes fall out of use along with open cockpits?

I’d like to see something more like an encyclopedia article than a catalogue of later arms developments. Humphrey Tribble (talk) 11:14, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Usage of Flechette Shells and Cluster Bombs by Ukrainian government

Human Rights Watch and AFP have reported the use of cluster munitions and specifically flechette shells in Ukraine as early as 2014, the article states only the Ukrainian spokesperson claim that they have not used these types of munition. It is very clear that the HRW and AFP reports clearly contradict these claims by Ukraine.

My edits have been reverted based on an innacurate assessment of what a flechette shell is. It is very clear in the sourced article that flechette shells refer to cluster bombs consisting of explosive shells encasing flechettes. There are no grounds for the revert. It is relevant information because Ukraine has been using flechettes in Ukraine since 2014, regardless of whether it has been fired by a gun or artillery. This is the cited source: https://news.yahoo.com/surgeons-ukraines-rebel-donetsk-confirm-cluster-bomb-usage-205747600.html There are many other sources utilizing the term "flechette shell" as a specific variant of a "cluster bomb". This particular user that reverted my edits claims that "flechette shells" are specifically for rounds shot from a gun where it is very clear in many sources that this is not the case, see:

• https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israel-using-flechette-shells-in-gaza
• https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/04/18/flechette-projectile-ukraine-russia/
• https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2022/04/24/what-are-flechettes-a-brutal-weapon-used-in-ukraine

Edencardim (talk) 19:31, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

I do not see the connection of flechettes/darts with cluster munitions in the Yahoo / Agence France-Presse (AFP) article.

The Yahoo article's photo caption states: "A Pro-Russian separatist fighter shows a dart from a flechette shell on October 21, 2014, in Donetsk, Ukraine". The only other mention is "The little darts cause grave injuries," he said. "There have been cases when we found up to 20 or 30 of them in one person." These do not tie the darts to cluster munitions.

A cluster munition releases bomblets which explode releasing shrapnel (or other unpleasantries). Cluster munitions do not disperse flechettes or darts. The explosive charge needed to accelerate a flechette from a bomblet-sized device to lethal velocities would fragment the flechette. An explosive-dispersed flechette (if intact) would also be tumbling and quickly lose its velocity, useful range, and effectiveness. Constructing a bomblet that with flechettes makes no sense.

Flechettes get their momentum/velocity by being accelerated in a gun (artillery, shotgun, or rifle-like). An artillery round/shell typically has a small bursting charge that releases the flechettes from the shell. The bursting charge does not impart momentum to the flechette. The case of a cluster munition is called a shell, but by itself, "shell" refers to an artillery round, not a cluster munition.

The connection of "flechettes" being dispersed by "cluster munition" is wp:SYNTHESIS and should not be used in the article. Adakiko (talk) 20:15, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

I think I see what you want, I am proposing this version of the text:

However, surgeons in Ukraine have reported the use of fléchette shells by the Ukrainian government forces in Donetsk as early as 2014. Edencardim (talk) 20:21, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

It would be much simpler to just edit the specific mention of cluster munition in the article instead of reverting the entire edit. Edencardim (talk) 20:26, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

That would be supported by the article and acceptable to me. Adakiko (talk) 20:32, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for your input. Edencardim (talk) 20:47, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Diacritics : fléchette vs flèchette

Hi there

Regarding the first section of this page

I read through the "Flechette vs. Fléchette" thread, but didn't find what I was looking for.

The actual french orthography is "fléchette", with an acute accent.

Does anyone think it's worth correcting ? 2A01:E0A:C15:FBA0:F537:739:F7EC:2896 (talk) 13:34, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree with you.

I also read the other thread from 2008, and even there it's noted that the accent grave is a mistake in one source.

No idea why anyone would introduce the old wrong spelling flèchette back into the article, counter to discussions above. It's definitely wrong, despite the root of the word being flèche. I think flechette should be retained as the default English spelling and the spelling fléchette should be mentioned as a variant in place of flèchette. Joel Busch (talk) 18:48, 28 December 2024 (UTC)