Talk:Epic poetry

Too many works included?

The proposed list of epics is getting longer and longer. Are these all truly epics? For example, is The Battle of Marathon by Elizabeth Barrett Browning truly an epic? Pete unseth (talk) 01:22, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

• Even if we remove some entrants, the list is too long. Maybe we need a separate page titled "List of epics". In that case, I think that List of world folk-epics and the list from National epic should also be merged into that "List of epics". Vanjagenije (talk) 08:56, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
  • Thanks for removing them. 2600:8806:340B:E100:A0EA:A3B4:8CB3:563A (talk) 02:05, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

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Requested move 23 February 2025

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. There is a clear consensus in opposition to the proposed move, and no reason to expect that further relisting of this discussion would yield any different outcome. BD2412 T 03:29, 3 March 2025 (UTC)

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• Epic poetry → EpicEpic
• Epic → Epic (disambiguation)Epic (disambiguation)

– An "epic poem" is usually called an epic, as in the Epic of Gilgamesh and the Homeric epics (part of the Epic Cycle). I have never heard anyone call these "epic poems", and ngrams unequivocally support this. The three aforementioned epics form the foundation of Western literature and have significantly influenced Western culture, so by historical and academic significance alone, it is the clear primary topic. Epic (disambiguation) lists one other primary-topic contender, epic film, a genre that was specifically derived from Template:Tqq; no other topic is anywhere near these two in terms of notability. Per WP:NOTDICT, we can disregard the adjective meaning "heroic or grand", and even that was derived from the literary genre as well. Epic is widely understood to mean an ancient long poem, and it is the first definition you get if you look up the term on any major dictionary (notice how "epic poem" is not a valid dictionary definition). InfiniteNexus (talk) 00:20, 23 February 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose "epic poetry" or "epic poem" is more recognizable. This is fine as is. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 02:35, 23 February 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose, poetry might have been the definite primary in 1925 Wikipedia, but then epic films became a 'thing'. Disamb covers both and more. Plus per Pppery, 'Epic poetry' is better recognized by the topic's full name. Randy Kryn (talk) 03:53, 23 February 2025 (UTC)

  "Epic" Template:Em already the full name of the topic, and has been so since 1583. We only added "poetry" to our article's title as a means of natural disambiguation, i.e. as an alternative to Epic (poetry). Per the ngrams I linked, nobody really calls it that in the real world. The emergence of epic films as an offshoot of "epic poems", in my opinion, does not surpass the older and more impactful topic in terms of long-term significance. Take a look at how often "epic films" are discussed in academic sources. InfiniteNexus (talk) 05:51, 23 February 2025 (UTC)

  Times change, language is fluid. Oppose Garnet Moss (talk) 23:33, 23 February 2025 (UTC)

• Support. In terms of usage in highest quality sources, there is no question that the primary meaning is the poetry. All other usage is derivative and making that clear is of educational value. Srnec (talk) 07:32, 23 February 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose. This would result in occluding the difference between Epic poetry and Epic (genre). In fact, because the genre is broader in scope, that might make more sense to have at a plain title as a catchall for the main uses. Dekimasuよ! 08:42, 23 February 2025 (UTC)

  The broader genre was also spun out of poetry. The article says so itself: Template:Tqq. This is like how Barbie (the doll) led to Barbie (media franchise), which led to List of Barbie films, which led to Barbie (film), but the original doll is so deeply influential and impactful that it remains the primary topic. Every modern "epic" work seeks to emulate the epics of antiquity; when we say something is "epic", we mean it is comparable to the scope and grandeur of poetic epics. InfiniteNexus (talk) 19:30, 23 February 2025 (UTC)

  Yes, there is an original usage, but the use of "epic" to refer to prose dates to at least the 1700s and its application to film is also over 100 years old (as noted in your OED link above). War and Peace, Journey to the West, Gone with the Wind, Lawrence of Arabia, Birth of a Nation, etc. have all long been called epics, and that usage does not rely on whether its users are familiar with Homer or Beowulf. We aren't talking about a neologism here. Dekimasuよ! 04:47, 24 February 2025 (UTC)

  Sure, but in the end, which one clearly has far greater long-term significance? The modern epics of Lawrence of Arabia and War and Peace are certainly influential and notable, but they are nowhere near the cultural impact and historical significance of the ancient epics of Beowulf and the Odyssey. Even today, epic films are (relatively) rarely discussed in academic sources, paling in comparison to a persistently high interest in epic poetry. These ngrams exclude "epic(s)" as a standalone noun, which would paint an even more drastic picture. Another ngram to take a look: [1]. InfiniteNexus (talk) 08:37, 24 February 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 28 May 2025

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Adumbrativus (talk) 05:29, 17 June 2025 (UTC)

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Epic poetry → Epic (poetry)Epic (poetry) – The subject is called an epic, not an epic poem or epic poetry, and changing the name of this would provide a more unambiguous interpretation: explaining the topic to be called just an epic but that is in an epic from poetry, not another epic. GrafiXal (talk) 19:33, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

• Support. This will clarify it, as without the parenthesis, the term 'Epic' is used as an adjective, meaning "cool" poetry. King (☞ Chat with King ☜・☞ Contribs ☜) 23:59, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose. "Epic poetry" is WP:NATURALDISAMBIGUATION and is WP:CONSISTENT with Lyric poetry. Ham II (talk) 06:11, 2 June 2025 (UTC)
• Support as the current wording is awkward and redundant. Epic already means a long poem, as defined by major dictionaries and reference works: [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11]. Thus, "poetry" is an unnecessary qualifier and would be equivalent to saying "novel book". Epic poetry also does not appear as a valid entry in most major dictionaries, so its validity is questionable. WP:NATURAL states: Template:Tqq See also ngrams. InfiniteNexus (talk) 18:34, 2 June 2025 (UTC)

  Look up the Muse Calliope and you'll find plenty of use of the term, including in some of the same sources you used: 1, 4, 6, 7, 9. And it's not remotely "equivalent to saying 'novel book'". Ham II (talk) 19:40, 2 June 2025 (UTC)

  Not much of a difference when we zoom back out. InfiniteNexus (talk) 19:55, 2 June 2025 (UTC)

  One of them has practically no use and the other has some use, e.g. by the Library of Congress and as the name of entries in Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable, The New Oxford Companion to Literature in French and the UNESCO Thesaurus. It's worrying that you don't see much of a difference. Ham II (talk) 20:43, 2 June 2025 (UTC)

  It's still rather uncommon and therefore not recognizable to most readers. "Homeric epics". The "Epic of Gilgamesh". Nobody really says the redundant "epic poetry" unless you dig really hard. InfiniteNexus (talk) 21:22, 2 June 2025 (UTC)

• Comment. If the page is moved, should list of epic poems also be moved? Mellk (talk) 18:41, 2 June 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose per NATURAL and CONSISTENT. Poem is literally the most common word to follow epic with poetry not far behind, despite repeated claims that such usage is rare. --MYCETEAE 🍄‍🟫—talk
• Oppose While "Epic poetry" is not its most common name, it does fall under WP:NATURAL as an alternate name that can be used to disambiguate. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 18:54, 6 June 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose. "Epic poetry" may be relatively uncommon but "epic poem" is certainly in fairly common use; in addition to the convincing Ngrams shown by Myceteae, we use the term "epic poem" ourselves in the lead sentences of articles such as Shahnameh and Epic of Manas. Accordingly, I think the meaning of this title should be straightforward to readers. The existing title is also a straightforward improvement in WP:NATURALness over the parenthetical version. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 20:25, 6 June 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose there is no major difference, but I strongly advocate for keeping the present name. Pete unseth (talk) 21:07, 6 June 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.