Talk:Emilia Plater

[[Category: good articles|Emilia Plater]]

Emilia Plater as the Belarusian Joan of Arc

Hi, she has been many times referred to as the "Belarusian Joan of Arc" in Belarusian sources. There are examples in notable Belarusian media such as Novy Chas, Charter'97, Argumenty i fakty (Belarus edition) or in a book by notable historical writer Uladzimir Arlou. I see no reason why not to add this to the article - especially since we have a reference to an article at the news portal Delfi.lt as the reference for her as the "Lithuanian Joan of Arc". Suggest adding the following text therefore:

She has been referred to as the Belarusian<ref>[https://docs.rferl.org/be-BY/2020/11/07/96247f72-a7e0-4382-ad1c-ec68459cf6b7.pdf Уладзімер Арлоў. Імёны Свабоды] [ [[Uładzimir Arłou]]. The Names of Liberty] - [[Radio Svaboda]], 2022, ISBN 978-0-929849-83-6 (in Belarusian)</ref><ref>Васіль Герасімчык. [https://novychas.online/poviaz/belaruskaja-zanna-d-ark-licvinka-emilija-pljater Беларуская Жанна д’Арк — ліцвінка Эмілія Плятэр] [The Belarusian Joan of Arc, the Litvin Emilija Plater] - [[Novy Chas]], 13/11/2022 (in Belarusian)</ref><ref>Дарья АМЕЛЬКОВИЧ. [https://aif.by/timefree/emiliya_plyater___belorusskaya_zhanna_d_ark_ Эмилия Плятер - «белорусская Жанна д’Арк»] [Darya Amelkovich. Emilija Plater, the "Belarusian Joan of Arc"] - [[Argumenty i Fakty]] Belarusian edition, No 25, 22 June 2011 (in Russian)</ref><ref>[https://charter97.org/ru/news/2021/5/11/421872/ Белорусская Жанна Д’Арк] [The Belarusian Joan of Arc] - [[Charter'97]], 11.05.2021</ref>

--Czalex 19:53, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

It would be perfect to have some academic sources for both "Belarusian" and "Lithuanian" Joan of Arc. Nonetheless usually Joan of Arc label is throwed at every women in history that hold a gun or sword once in her life, so I would be careful about that. It just isn't something unique Marcelus (talk) 20:25, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

I agree with

1. REDIRECT Template:Reply to

Template:Redirect category shell. Moreover, we need reliable English-language sources that claim so. Independent news portals, freelance journalism and fanbases are not within that category. Today, she may be known as such by admirers, but not sure whether it follows a historical or scholarly context. I would remove the sentence about Joan of Arc entirely, regardless of whether it is Belarusian, Polish or Lithuanian. It sounds rather unprofessional. Merangs (talk) 22:45, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

The sources do not need to be in English, where do you take this requirement from? Base (talk) 20:38, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Untitled

Witkacy: actually I'm not Zivinbudas, and I really sugest to call all the places in english, in en.wikipedia.org, but if you think that Wilno is more popular then Vilnius in present maps, so let it be that way. (Tautvydas)

Witkacy: Can you give any reasonable/logical explanation why in english wikipedia Vilnius should be in polish name, not in english?

...wikipedia Vilnius should be in polish name...

Zivi.. Polish.. not polish...--Witkacy 20:02, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Firstly, as I mentioned before I'm not Zivi, secondly not sure about this, at least in lithuanian language, languages is lithuanian, polish, english and countries is Lithuania, Poland, England, but maybe in english it's different. Anyway, I don't see answer to my question. (Tautvydas)

Protected page

I have protected this page as per the request at WP:RFPP. It should be noted that both user:Tautvydas and user:Witkacy have broken the Wikipedia:Three revert rulle (3RR) on this article today.

In terms of a compromise, why not say "Born in Vilnius (now called Vilno)" or whichever way round it is? It would be improper for me having protected the page to edit the article now (other than to put the Template:Tl notice on it), so I will leave this just as a start to the discussion. Thryduulf 22:40, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Because Vilnius was always Vilnius it didn't change the name from Wilno to Vilnius or from Vilnius to Wilno. In terms of compromise we could say "Born in Vilnius (in Polish Wilno)", but it's kind of strange, as it is english wikipedia, and you can always find out how Vilnius is called in Polish by visiting Vilnius page, but in terms of compromise we could do this.

There was a very nice discusion over similar topic (I think Polich-German naming) and I think they have reached agreement about that:

In English WP english naming (englisized current names) should be used for all cities regardless historical period (eg. Vilnius will always be Vilnius (not Wilno or Vilna), and Gdansk (not Danzig), and Kaunas (not Kowno) and etc.)

The same rule applies to all namings, ex. rivers, lakes, regions, mountains and etc.

Namings of other languages and/or periods can be (and must be, in case of dispute) mentioned in main describing article

eLNuko 14:57, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

I removed the anachronism that was there before, but mentioned the modern name of that city. Does it settle the dispute?

BTW, in case a non-informed person wondered what's the problem about: prior to 1945 the city was predominantly Polish and was called Wilno by the locals. After that the Poles were expelled and their place was taken by Lithuanians who moved to what they considered their legitimate capital. The problem with the name itself is that until 1945 it was called Wilno and then the name was changed to Lithuanian spelling. To add flavour and more confusion, before 1919 the Lithuanian spelling of that name was Wilnius, but then the grammar was changed to resemble less the Polish language... Halibutt 18:47, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Looks like a good solution, although I would simplify it to "Wilno (now Vilnius)". Interesting tidbit there about "Wilnius" as well. Olessi 00:00, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Plateryte

I'd like to ask why is some Lithuanian name of that person mentioned here? Sure, she might be called Plateryte in Lithuanian, Platerová in Czech, Плятэр in Russian and perhaps a zillion other names, but that doesn't mean we should include all of those in the header. Or do we? //Halibutt 13:54, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Interestingly, it appears that she did not sign her name Plater in the March 25, 1831, letter included in the article. Anyway, she was born in Lithuania, died in Lithuania, and is buried in Lithuania. And her military activities all took place in Lithuania, not a zillion other places. Perhaps that is why "some Lithuanian name" is mentioned here. Dr. Dan 14:21, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

No, Dr. Dan, she was born in Russia, lived in Russia, and died in Russia. Lithuania didn't exist, Lithuanians themselves used the Polish language. --81.7.98.250 11:33, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

So are you saying that she was Russian? Dr. Dan 13:54, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

What was mother language of Emilia Plater? Lithuanian? Did anybody from relatives called her as Pliateryte? Did Emilia Platerowna ever called herself as Emilija Pliaterytė? Was Liksna manor where she grew up in Lithuania? Now 200 years after appears Lithuanian name - this looks like retrospective falsification. Well, this name could be used within Lithuanian WP, cause in lithuanian all names are lithuanised. Even David Copperfield in lithuanian is called as lt:Deividas Koperfildas, but such name would be a nonsence if used in English WP. 81.7.98.250 11:22, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

To Dr.Dan Actually, she used her polish name in the March 25, 1831, letter included in the article. You can read there 'Platerówna' - in polish language and grammar those times ending '-ówna' (Plater'-ówna') signifies that the woman was unmerried (maiden).77.112.41.127 (talk) 17:36, 27 April 2008 (UTC)Poznaniak

Don't need to source the same thing three times

I don't know what the point of this edit/edit summary is [1] except possibly to change the links under the guise of adding redundant refs. The "Polish-Lithuanian" is already reffed twice. No point in having a third ref. And the proper link is obviously to Polish-Lithuanian (adjective) since that is the description used in sources.VolunteerMarek 06:24, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

The point should be straight forward obvious to neutral contributors. There is increasing attempt by polish nationalists to remove everything that is Lithuanian. Just if anybody look few edits before, there was exactly the same attempt [2] and the provided source perfectly illustrates that English sources identifies this person as Lithuanian as well. M.K. (talk) 10:10, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Polish nationalists removing everything that is lithuanian? Pot, meet kettle. 144.132.72.78 (talk) 14:43, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

"Polish nationalists blah blah blah". Really it gets tiresome. Especially when the so-called "Polish nationalists" are putting into articles that the person was "Polish-Lithuanian" while Lithuanian editors try to remove all references to Poland or Poles from an article(s) about people who very clearly have/had strong connections to Poland (language, self-identification, culture, etc.). I know it's a failure to assume good faith - which isn't required in cases like this - but this kind of nonsense has been going on for ever and any attempt at compromise (like describing such persons as "Polish-Lithuanian" despite the fact that most sources refer to them as Poles from Lithuania) seems to only embolden the *real* nationalist edit warriors, like M.K above.

The provided source illustrates that she was from Lithuania, a Pole from Lithuania, or more precisely a Polish-Lithuanian as the term was used at the time she was alive and as it is used in sources today - hence the link to the proper article. She certainly wasn't a "modern Pole" or a "modern Lithuanian" which is what M.K is trying to link to.VolunteerMarek 15:57, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

This is straight forward personal attack And provided source illustrates following ...one of the first female soldiers, the Lithuanian, Emilia Plater.... And I have no time to discuss issues with individuals who failed to meet proper way of conduct on talk pages included. M.K. (talk) 19:13, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Look here buddy, you're the one who started ranting about "Polish nationalists". You want a civil conversation then act with civility. There was no personal attack here made by anyone but you. What is the source you're referring to? I don't see a link or anything. "Lithuanian" could - and probably does - in this context mean the same thing as "New Yorker". A person who happened to reside in Lithuania, just like some people reside in New York state. The best way to compromise on the description of this very obviously Polish person (with German roots) is to describe here as Polish-Lithuanian.

And if you don't have time to discuss, then sure as hell you shouldn't have time to edit war, so stop it.VolunteerMarek 19:24, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Cause of death

For the record, PSB does not mention any details other than exhaustion and high fever. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:27, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Signature

Can be extracted from File:Emilia Plater oswiadczenie.jpg. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:55, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Place of death

According to pl wiki, Justianów or Justianowo (Justinavas) was a manor of Polish nobility near or in the village (?) of Vainežerio. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:21, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

50 zlotys note

This bank note is described as Polish, but it was in fact issued by the German occupation administration in Poland after the invasion of 1939. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pernambuco1 (talk • contribs) 00:24, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

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