Talk:Dairy product

White Meats

The term "white meats" needs to be included in this article since a search for "white meats" leads to an article on a completely unrelated concept. The confusion between cheese and chicken breasts has been a source of many sad mistakes in discussions of late medieval and Renaissance dietary practices. MonteGargano (talk) 01:49, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

Dairy products were only known as "white meats" (also known as Banbhianna) historically in Ireland. Not many people know about that, it only turned up in a few history books. There isn't much sourcing on this and it is WP:OR and WP:UNDUE to put this in the lead. We have a Wikipedia article on white meat. Let's not mislead readers. Dairy is not meat. Veg Historian (talk) 23:28, 31 May 2025 (UTC)

Template:Ping please stop adding that dairy products are "white meats" in the lead. This is WP:UNDUE and you have no consensus for a controversial edit like this. Repeatedly adding that type of content that is not properly sourced or mentioned in the text on the article is considered is WP:DISRUPTIVE. As stated above, dairy products are not commonly known as "white meats" and nobody today would use that terminology for dairy so you are adding misleading information to the article lead which could confuse readers. It is true that historically dairy products during the Middle English period were referred to as "white meats" especially in Ireland but this is obsolete and WP:UNDUE for the lead. Your source is not a reliable scholarly source, you linked to wiktionary which admits in the 3rd definition that the term is historical only. If you want to add a line about this on the dairy article that might be acceptable but directly in the lead on this article is not appropriate. Veg Historian (talk) 21:00, 9 June 2025 (UTC)

The whole point of adding the reference to "white meats" as dairy products is to stop misleading readers. Omitting it does nothing to clear up the confusion, it only aggravates it. I have read many sad and misinformed articles and posts about historical dietary practices that discuss chicken breasts when the original source is discussing cheese. Whatever. Wikipedia cares nothing for the humanties. I don't know why I bother. MonteGargano (talk) MonteGargano (talk) 23:12, 9 June 2025 (UTC)

I needed less than 5 minutes to pull up academic references to white meats in discussions of historical dietary practices. Here's one: https://www.proquest.com/openview/c8eed357208a4b8518e909e2c5c78ecd/1?pq-origsite=gscholar&cbl=18750. I see there is now a footnote for "lacticinia" from what is essentially an offhand comment and not and academic discussion of the term or its history. There are many, better, and truly academic references for "white meats". I could add them, but apparently there is no interest here in writing an article that covers anything beyond commercial products and ephemeral medical concerns. MonteGargano (talk) 23:31, 9 June 2025 (UTC)

We already have an article containing history and terminology of dairy, see Dairy#History and Dairy#Terminology, none mention "white meats". It is irrelevant to this article. This article in its current form is a list of dairy products and their health benefits. This is a modern article, we do not discuss the obscure history of dairy terminology in any detail here because the history is discussed elsewhere on Wikipedia. If you are interested in writing about the history of dairy then you should edit those other sections on the main dairy article.

As for the link you cited, that is an obscure MA thesis on fasting, not the history of dairy. It 215 pages long and only on 1 page out of the entire thesis is a there a small paragraph that mentions dairy and "white meats" - "It is noteworthy that while the pope specifies reasons for avoiding overconsumption of permitted edibles (fish and wine), avoidance of meat is casually taken for granted even to the point of generating secondary interdictions on “white meats” (dairy and eggs) as if through contractual contamination". This is hardly an academic discussion about dairy being termed "white meats". As stated, this is completely WP:UNDUE here. If you had any good sourcing for your claims you would have cited them by now. Veg Historian (talk) 23:55, 9 June 2025 (UTC)

The term "white meats" is used 3 times in the dissertation. I'm truly impressed at your ability to handle the search function. It's also a PhD dissertation from NYU, not a masters thesis, so I am equally impressed with your reading skills. Regardless, thank you for pointing out that the title of the article is inaccurate. You'd think you'd want to fix that if you're really worried about accuracy. Also, I'm glad someone pointed out that dairy is not meat. I'd like to add that butterflies are not made of butter. I am daily overwhelmed by the quality of work on Wikipedia. MonteGargano (talk) 00:05, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

The link you cited uses the term "white meats" only once to refer to dairy, I cited the quote above. See page 16 which says "white meats” (dairy and eggs)". So you read through over 215 pages to find a single obscure mention in one small paragraph that also calls eggs white meat. Confusing to say the least. This is hardly an WP:RS and is WP:UNDUE. This isn't a scholarly source on the history of dairy, it is on fasting, so why are you citing this? How will citing that source improve Wikipedia? Veg Historian (talk) 00:30, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

The article I linked was one that was already familiar to me, although I hadn't read it in a while.

As to the other question, a reference to "white meats" will improve Wikipedia by increasing its accuracy. However, as you note, this article is not actually about dairy products sensu latu, which clarifies everything. In light of that, I suggest you also drop the reference to lacticinia, which is in no way more WP:UNDUE that "white meats". EDIT: In fact, the only reason I added "white meats" was the rather odd inclusion of the term lacticinia. If one of those terms is useless to this article, then both are useless. MonteGargano (talk) 00:39, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

Content is well sourced. Lacticinia does have modern usage and is referenced in current dairy textbooks but it is a historical term. "White meats" has no modern usage in regard to dairy products. It is an obsolete historical term. See my comment below, I have added both terms in a footnote. Veg Historian (talk) 00:47, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

Here's another academic soure: Deborah M. Valenze (2011). Milk: a local and global history. New Haven: Yale University Press. "Dairy products, the 'white meats' of northern European diets, served as inexpensive substitutes for the real thing." "Not for nothing were dairy products called 'white meats': earlier consumers comprehended their substantial nutritional value and the fact that they were satisfying and filling."

I looked at the Dairy articles you referenced, and I was impressed by the label, "This article needs additional citations for verification." Once again, I'm impressed beyond description. MonteGargano (talk) 00:35, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

WP:DOIT. If you have a reliable source why are you not improving Dairy#History and Dairy#Terminology? Veg Historian (talk) 00:47, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

That article needs re-writing from top to bottom, and I can't do it right now. Simple as that. Fixing that article, though, will not solve the problem with this article, which has a misleading title. Less importantly but still annoying, the outdated, probably-never-uttered in modern English, and WP:UNDUE term, lacticinia, remains, while the companion term of equal historical importance, "white meats", is prohibited. MonteGargano (talk) 00:59, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

It isn't prohibited, it just unnecessary to mention it directly in the lead in bold as it only has historical usage. Lacticinia is still used in some textbooks but it is another historical term. What I have done is added those terms in a footnote. Veg Historian (talk) 01:30, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

I think the footnote is an excellent way to address the issue, @Veg Historian. Schazjmd (talk) 13:46, 10 June 2025 (UTC)