Talk:Crusader states

Demography

The article presents Prawer's estimation about the Frankish population as a fact, although it is only one of the scholarly guessworks. Borsoka (talk) 01:35, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

Population figures are always likely to be guesswork - are there any alternative guesses? Norfolkbigfish (talk) 08:24, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

Yes, medieval population figures are mainly guesswork, but the article does not emphasize it: Prawer's estimation has no solid documentary basis. Scholarly estimations of the number of Franks in Outremer range between 120,000 and 300,000 (Morton, 2020, p. 154). Borsoka (talk) 00:55, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

What exactly does Morton write? Who has come up with alternative figures? Prawer's figures seem pretty much accepted and are based on primary sources. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 17:22, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Please find my edit here: [1]. I hope it answers all your above questions. For instance, the primary sources are unreliable, as it is emphasized in a number of scholarly works published during the last decades. Borsoka (talk) 00:25, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Society

The article contains information about peasantry in the crusader states, but our readers are not informed about the principal features of society: the development of a frontier society, the survival of a modified dhimmi system, the similarities and differences between European and Levantine feudalism, etc. Borsoka (talk) 01:42, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

Feudalism's impact on the peasantry is a minor concern in the works cited in the article. Firstly, because the Franks social structure largely left the peasantry untouched. Secondly, Frankish society is accepted as largley urban, particularly after Hattin but even before. Feudalim is touched on by Prawar and Riley-Smith based on the legal system that governed the Franks, and by extension the Crusader states itself. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 08:53, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

I think you misunderstood my above remark. My concern is that the article does not present the crusader states' society as a whole and in context, but contains statements about peasantry. Borsoka (talk) 00:59, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

There are only 3 references to peasantry, one of which refers to Europe Norfolkbigfish (talk) 17:25, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Please read the section "Demography and society" again. Perhaps you want to search for the term "peasants" instead of "peasantry". For your removal of the term "peasantry" in other parts of the article, please find my remarks below. Borsoka (talk) 23:47, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Peasantry

Template:Ping your last edit removed the term "peasantry" from some sentences ([2]). Why do you think it was necessary? I think the edit contradicts scholarly consensus. For instance, I cannot remember scholarly books claiming that formerly free clergymen or burghers were subjected into serfdom in this period. Borsoka (talk) 23:44, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

outremer, or all crusader states?

the lead of this article is very unclear as to whether the article itself considers the State of the Teutonic Order for example to be a "crusader state". That's important because this article is linked in the lead of the article on the State of the Teutonic Order. Freyheytlid (talk) 20:48, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Crusader Chart/Family tree

Hello everyone. I had created a chart, a family tree to be more precise, of all the monarchs of the crusader's Kingdom of Jerusalem from its creation to its end. I sincerely believe that this addition has brought an different encyclopaedic element to the article because users could see all the complex interconnections as well as be able to download a complete image and use it as a ressource. But perhaps was I wrong? It was removed after a year with no reasons whatsoever. So my question is: does it belong here or not, and if it does, in what way should it be modified to reappear here again? M F Gervais (talk) 18:22, 13 September 2024 (UTC)