Talk:Couscous

Semi-protected edit request on 10 April 2024

Template:Edit semi-protected The sources are clearly in disagreement. I don't understand the point of the infobox attributing the origin to Numidia? It's like considering the other sources not important. 102.52.34.162 (talk) 22:26, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Please change Numidia to Maghreb.

X=Numidia and Y=Maghreb. 102.52.34.162 (talk) 22:36, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

The sources indicate different geographic regions and time periods not as potential birthplaces of couscous, but rather as evidence of its presence in those regions during those times. Among these sources, Numidia is notably the earliest documented historical tracing, thus warranting its designation as the origin in the infobox. sloth (talk) 10:09, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

I disagree. What archeology found are only couscoussiers, and they don't know what recipes they prepared with them at that time. In fact couscoussiers are not only used to prepare couscous but many many other recipes. For example in Morocco we have a recipe called Lemfawer in which we use couscoussiers to prepare steamed chicken. The main role of couscoussiers is to steam food, which can be either chicken, vegetables, meat, rice, Couscous.... However the earliest source describing the recipe dates back to 12th century. 102.52.58.158 (talk) 15:30, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the Template:Tlx template. As this has been discussed at length above, it is clearly not an uncontroversial edit. PianoDan (talk) 21:51, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Popularity of couscous in Israel

@M.Bitton You reverted my edit about the inclusion of couscous in Israeli cuisine through Jewish immigration from North-Africa. Your reason was "It's no more popular there than it is in other places around the world (see previous discussions)". I disagree with this revert. The reliable sources I brought specifically mention it as popular in Israel (e.g. "is now popular in many Mediterranean states such as Israel, Italy and France"). I can bring more sources if needed. I also don't see in this talk page any previous discussion regarding the inclusion of couscous in Israeli cuisine (only about "ptitim" which is a completely different thing). PS looking again I see that you have said something about this before. I'll respond later.

Vegan416 (talk) 18:51, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

Please see #September 2021 and #January 2022, and if you still disagree, then you're welcome to seek consensus for its inclusion (in the lead). M.Bitton (talk) 19:02, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

I don't insist on including it in the lead. I'm OK with putting it at the end of the History section. Vegan416 (talk) 20:22, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

Maghrebis consume it wherever they are around the world (which is everywhere), so why should Israel (which has had no impact on the history of Couscous) be mentioned in the history section? M.Bitton (talk) 20:42, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

Couscous is popular in Israel not only among Maghrebis, but among the entire population. It has become a significant dish in Israeli cuisine, probably as important as it is in France. I'm not sure how these things are measured, but the sources I have indicate that. (And I can also testify from personal experience as an Ashkenazi Jew who loves and prepares couscous). Also Israel probably has the largest Maghrebi population in the world outside of Africa and France. In fact the percentage of Maghrebis in Israel is probably larger than their percentage in France. Vegan416 (talk) 21:04, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

It's also popular in many European countries (not only among Maghrebis). I checked the first source that you cited and it certainly doesn't make it sound like it's more important than everywhere else.

As for France, I can only reiterate what I previously said. M.Bitton (talk) 21:21, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

I think it can be proven that it is more popular in Israel than anywhere else out of the Maghreb itself (and maybe France). Since you don't want to look at all the sources I brought, I'll have to copy them myself here (and maybe add some more). That's for tomorrow. But even putting that aside, if the European cuisine is mentioned in the article (even in the lead), then why not also the Israeli cuisine? As for your claim that couscous is a French word - that's not what the article here says. It says it is an Arab word kuskus (which probably comes from Berber origin) which the French copied. Vegan416 (talk) 21:40, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

I looked at the sources that you cited and I don't see anything in them that would support your assertions. Yes, the French copied the word and in turn, the rest of the word copied it from the French (the word Couscoussier is French, even if it's derived from Template:Langx). M.Bitton (talk) 21:44, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

It seems you didn't read the sources I brought carefully:

[1]: "The same is popular in Israel, where it was introduced by the North African Jews"

[2]: "[...] is now popular in many Mediterranean states such as Israel, Italy and France"

And here is another one:

[3]: "Sephardim incorporated couscous into their cuisine because of the Moorish influence and carried it to their asylum countries after their expulsion from Iberian lands (1492). It is still popularly consumed in Israel."

Please note that all the places that are mentioned in these sources in relation to couscous are already mentioned in this wikipedia article, except for Israel. I also show here only (some of) the non-Israeli sources I have so you can't blame them for being biased for Israeli mentions.

As for your claim that "couscous" is a French word because most of the world learned of couscous through French, it would be the same as claiming that "falafel" is a Hebrew word because most of the world learned of falafel through Hebrew... Vegan416 (talk) 08:59, 5 March 2025 (UTC)

Template:Tq "the same" here applies to something else (moghrabieh). The source also mentions Palestine.

None of the sources support your assertions that it is more more popular in Israel than anywhere else in Europe. A simple search for "Couscous Israel" brings lots of results for "Israeli Couscous" (Ptitim) and literally nothing for the real "Couscous".

Template:Tq It's not a claim, it's a fact ("couscous" is a French word and so is the word "couscoussier"). The falafel analogy is just an opinion that has no basis in facts.

Out of interest: is Couscous produced in Israel or is it imported? M.Bitton (talk) 23:52, 5 March 2025 (UTC)

1.No, he is talking about couscous. Moghrabieh was not introduced to Israel by North African Jews. It is couscous that was introduced by them. And those sources do support my claim, because they mention Israel and Italy and France but not other European nations. All those countries (including Palestine) are already mentioned in this wiki article, except Israel. I just want to correct the bias here against Israeli mention.

2. You are wrong. Cousocous is not a French word. It is an Arab word borrowed into French. Look for example at Larousse dictionary where it says: "Arab kuskus". https://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/couscous/19991

And there are several firms producing couscous in Israel. Here are some:

https://www.bishulim.co.il/%D7%94%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%A6%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D-%D7%A9%D7%9C%D7%A0%D7%95/%D7%A7%D7%95%D7%A1%D7%A7%D7%95%D7%A1/

https://c-m.co.il/

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1858352894408512&id=1532559363654535&set=a.1533372513573220&locale=he_IL Vegan416 (talk) 12:08, 11 March 2025 (UTC)

The sentence quoted gives Israel as an example of a country where couscous is popular but is not evidence of it being exceptionally so. We also run the risk of confusion in the sources of Israeli couscous (Ptitim) and also maftoul and possibly moghrabieh (the latter two are considered related to traditional couscous and redirect to this article). So what to do. First it seems definite that Israeli Jews of North African and in particular Maghrebi origin use couscous and have traditional dishes using it that are different in some ways from the surrounding culture (for instance never mixing dairy and meat and special Sabbath dishes). These could be described in a section under "Local Variations". I note that the Hebrew version of this article has some info about this though I can't evaluate the sources. I also found several mouth watering recipes with some cultural context by Pascale Perez-Rubin whose family is originally from Tunisia; she is also described as a historian and has written some books (in Hebrew so not a source I can check). I think it is more interesting and useful to describe cultural variations then to argue relative popularity. Erp (talk) 04:57, 8 March 2025 (UTC)

In Israel nobody confuses "Israeli couscous" with real couscous. But I will try to rephrase and present the info in other ways. Vegan416 (talk) 12:43, 11 March 2025 (UTC)

Israelis might not; however, it is us editors checking sources (especially if relying on possibly bad translations) that need to be careful. Erp (talk) 05:50, 14 March 2025 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 May 2025

Template:Edit semi-protected Change "Origin:Numidia" to "Origin:North Africa" Reason:in the article there is clearly a disagreement between historians. While some claims Numidia to be the origin, others say Almohad Caliphate and Hafsid Caliphate. Probably some will say we have an archeological evidence, actually that's not enough, the fact that they may have founded Couscoussiers (the term is very recent) doesn't give us any clue of whay they prepared with it. Couscoussiers is actually used for many recipes other than Couscous. The Almohad claim is also interesting since the earliest description of the Couscous recipe dates back to this period (Kitab al-Tabikh). 102.52.62.210 (talk) 21:22, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

Template:Not done As was explained last time this was brought up, consensus support would be needed before requesting this change. - MrOllie (talk) 15:56, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

And how can we reach consensus? what do you personally think about what I said? 102.52.60.114 (talk) 17:42, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

Place of origin in infobox

So i started a new discussion to reach consensus: Change "Origin:Numidia" to "Origin:North Africa" Reason:in the article there is clearly a disagreement between historians. While some claims Numidia to be the origin, others say Almohad Caliphate and Hafsid Caliphate. Probably some will say we have an archeological evidence, actually that's not enough, the fact that they may have founded Couscoussiers (the term is very recent) doesn't give us any clue of whay they prepared with it. Couscoussiers are actually used for many recipes other than Couscous. The 12th century Almohad claim is also interesting since the earliest description of the Couscous recipe dates back to this period (Kitab al-Tabikh). 102.52.63.85 (talk) 23:06, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

We have I think the following sources

• for the 11th-13th century CE date This seems fully readable at the url.
• Perry quotes an 1862 work by Hady Idriss
• for the much earlier date (and Numidia)

Perry uses literary sources; Bolen is using archaeological sources. Perry's work establishes the latest time that couscous was as we understand it first existed. However pre-modern cookbooks tend to cover elite foods and coverage can be spotty. He mentions the Zirid dynasty as being empty of reference but how many cookbooks exist from that time and place? I wonder it there is a more recent scholarly article that cover the timing issue? If so, they are likely in either French or Arabic neither of which I read at the necessary level (I do know some French). I'm inclined to "Maghreb circa 12th century CE, possibly earlier" and reverse the first two paragraphs of the history section. Erp (talk) 01:21, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

That sounds good, i have no objections. But maybe we need to wait for what others have to say. Thank you 105.75.55.39 (talk) 05:26, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

While I have no objection to replacing "Numidia" with "Maghreb" (without the mention of any date), I see no reason to remove relevant and well sourced content from the article's body. M.Bitton (talk) 20:40, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting any be removed; just reverse the order of presentation since I think there is a definite consensus on couscous being present by the 12th century CE. Bolens' date may lack the same consensus though I'm not sure. Erp (talk) 01:33, 13 May 2025 (UTC)

I have no idea how I managed to misread it.

You'll find that Bolens' date is the one that is repeated in multiple RS (especially, recent ones). Since we don't have a definite answer, the chronological order makes more sense. M.Bitton (talk) 20:59, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 May 2025

Template:Edit semi-protected Change "place of origin: Numidia" to "place of origin: Maghreb". See discussion above. 160.89.7.12 (talk) 11:52, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

File:Yes check.svg Done Skitash (talk) 13:07, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

Thanks. I think the sources should be removed as well, otherwise you add the other sources supporting 11th-13th centuries theory. 160.172.1.22 (talk) 21:31, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

Why remove the sources? Note that the discussion of when is in the history section and includes all the sources. Erp (talk) 02:32, 25 May 2025 (UTC)