Talk:Claude Debussy

Debussy and Spain

I've been reading and hearing all my adult life how Debussy wrote some exquisitely Spanish-sounding music despite having never visited Spain, except for one very brief trip to San Sebastián in connection with a bullfight. (The details escape me.) San Sebastián is on the far west of the French-Spanish border. I've always taken that as gospel, but I've just been reading Patrice Chaplin's memoir The Portal (2010), in which she mentions numerous times Debussy's frequent visits to Girona, in the far north-eastern part of Spain. Not too far from the French border, but decidedly further into Spanish territory than San Sebastián.

Can this be verified, or debunked? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 01:51, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks to the Internet Archive I have checked in biographies of Debussy by Jean Barraqué, Roderic Dunnett, Charles Koechlin, Louise Liebich, Edward Lockspeiser, Roger Nichols, Leonid Sabaneyev, André Suarès and Percy Young and also The Cambridge Companion to Debussy and there is not a single mention of Girona in any of them. Granted, that doesn't prove Chaplin's statement wrong but if Debussy had made "frequent visits" to Girona one might expect at least one of these biographers to have mentioned them. I don't know if it is any indication of Chaplin's general accuracy, but her own website sometimes spells the name of the city as "Gerona" and sometimes as "Girona". – Tim riley talk 07:08, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, Girona-Gerona. Not to mention Salvidor [sic] Dali. Thanks for your research, Tim. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 00:24, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Echoes

The lead ends with the abrupt and rather painful line "Debussy died from cancer at his home in Paris at the age of 55 after a composing career of a little more than 30 years." Wouldn't it be better to end by acknowledging his influence, as that influence has lasted after his death? Wouldn't it be better to end with "His works have strongly influenced a wide range of composers including Béla Bartók, Igor Stravinsky, George Gershwin, Olivier Messiaen, George Benjamin, and the jazz pianist and composer Bill Evans"? Why not add that "Pierre Boulez described Prélude à L’Après-midi d’un Faune as 'the beginning of modern music'”?

His influence echoes after his death, like a note hanging in the air. And it stirs sympathetic resonances in others. Charlie Faust (talk) 14:35, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

SchroCat's edit summary is ad rem: "The lead is supposed to reflect the article, not become a collection of quotes and factoids that are not in the article". As I have already explained to Charlie Faust on my talk page, the three main authors of the article and all the reviewers at peer review and FAC were happy with the order, but if there is a consensus to alter the article, so be it. Tim riley talk 15:05, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

Well, I don't think I added any "factoids" that are not in the article. Debussy's influence on later composers is reflected throughout the article, notably in "Influence on later composers". I think ending with his influence is better than ending with his death, since his influence has outlasted his death. It hangs in the air.

I think Debussy's influence on jazz could be accentuated. Glad we have Stravinsky and Gershwin in the lead now. Charlie Faust (talk) 15:10, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

It's not advisable to add quotes into leads about individual works when we're looking at a biography of a whole life. As to "hangs in the air", 'stirring sympathetic resonances', etc: this is an encyclopaedia, not a piece of purple prose or hagiography. - SchroCat (talk) 15:44, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

Purple prose? OK, maybe a little. I was trying to be poetic, and agree such prose doesn't belong in the body of an encyclopedia article (note, though, that I didn't add it to the body of an encyclopedia article, but to the talk page.)

I do think Boulez's quote about "the beginning of modern music” belongs. Many Featured Articles round out there lead with quotes; William Shakespeare rounds out with the following from Ben Jonson: "not for an age, but for all time." (True, that's for a body of work, and not a specific work.) Boulez's quote belongs because he was one of many musicians to feel Debussy's influence. I also think the Hough piece is worth linking to because it's a good reference.

More to the point, I think ending with influence rather than the circumstances of his death is appropriate, since his influence extends beyond his death; Bill Evans, Boulez, et al. Charlie Faust (talk) 00:34, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be worth noting that his approach to timbre was innovative? As I understand it, he did for timbre what Stravinsky did for rhythm. Charlie Faust (talk) 02:51, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

I think the article, having been through peer review and featured article candidacy, is in no great need of the extensive alterations you propose, but let us see if you can gather a consensus here for your views. Tim riley talk 06:20, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

Fair enough. The article is not in need of extensive alteration, and that's not what I'm proposing. I just think closing the lead with "His works have strongly influenced a wide range of composers including Béla Bartók, Igor Stravinsky, George Gershwin, Olivier Messiaen, George Benjamin, and the jazz pianist and composer Bill Evans" is better than "Debussy died from cancer at his home in Paris at the age of 55 after a composing career of a little more than 30 years" since his influence has extended beyond his death. I also think mentioning timbre in the lead would be worthwhile. But yes, let's get consensus. Charlie Faust (talk) 12:41, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

Using Stravinsky (also a Featured Article) as a template, we read "Stravinsky's revolutionary ideas influenced composers as diverse as Aaron Copland, Philip Glass, Béla Bartók, and Pierre Boulez, who were all challenged to innovate music in areas beyond tonality, especially rhythm and musical form." Similarly, I think it would be worth noting Debussy's innovative use of timbre. Stravinsky's lead also closes with a quote: "Claude Debussy credited Stravinsky with having 'enlarged the boundaries of the permissible' in music." I think closing with the Boulez quote, or some other summary of his influence, would be apt. Charlie Faust (talk) 13:13, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

No to the Boulez quote. As above, his quote is about one piece, which is not appropriate for a biography. What others have on their articles has no bearing on this, so lets just wait for a consensus to develop. - SchroCat (talk) 13:26, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

The Stravinsky article is Featured so, yes, I think the standards that apply to it apply to Debussy, too.

The heart of the matter, I think, is Debussy's innovative use of timbre. That is absolutely worth including in the lead. Charlie Faust (talk) 13:48, 1 May 2025 (UTC)