Talk:Bud Powell

[[Category: good articles|Bud Powell]] Template:OnThisDay

References

• Kenny Mathieson, "Giant Steps", Template:ISBN
• Booklet from "Complete Blue Note and Roost Recordings" box.
• "Complete Bud Powell on Verve" - various articles in book.
• Booklet from "Tempus Fugue-It" box.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Andrew Norman (talk • contribs) 08:43, 28 June 2005 (UTC)

Bud Powell

I know that there is a song called Bud Powell, which is composed by Chick Corea and performed by Chick Corea and Gary Burton in Zurich on October 28, 1979. However, I can't find the article about that song, which makes me think that something's missing. NHRHS2010 talk 19:51, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Impartiality?

There is a lot of dispute about how much Bud Powell's 1945 beating affected his behavior; some friends claimed that he was just as difficult before, though it didn't help matters. And it seems unwise to state that "Buttercup didn't have Bud's best interests at heart;" while her dosing of Bud Powell with psychotropic medications is attested to in various accounts, she does have living relatives and she did not leave an account as to her intentions. So I would say that this statement is less than impartial, though overall it's a good piece. Pinikadia--Pinikadia (talk) 05:22, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

More Impartiality

Referring to the beating by the Philadelphia Police to be as a result of disorderly conduct is assumptive. That he was beaten is undeniable; that his actual crime was being a young black man dressed in fine clothes with money in his pocket may also be assumptive, but is equally plausible. This citation needs to be stripped of bias. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.149.63.100 (talk) 16:12, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Jazz Life 2673211 Germany 1988

Side A recorded at Grughalle, Essen, 1960 (Essen Jazz Festtival). But Side B recorded in Acousti Studio 1964 31 July with Michael Gaudry (bass) and Arthur Taylor (drums) - was this also released elsewhere? Tracks are: In the mood for a classic, John's abbey, Una noche con Francis, Relaxin' at Camarillo, My old flame, Moose the mooche. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:42, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Image

A Google Image search for "Bud Powell" yields 337,000 hits. Surely in that total there might be at least one single image there that might legally be used here? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:54, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

RE: technical musical comments

When it is said that Powell was innovative with the "harmonic series" or harmonic partials, maybe it should say he was playing "outside" the harmony? That might be a better description, if the comment should not simply be deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.175.151.48 (talk) 00:35, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians, I have just modified one external link on Bud Powell. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://archive.is/20130624204539/http://www.amsterdamnews.com/arts_and_entertainment/cedar-walton-and-barry-harris-to-play-jazz-at-lincoln/article_4f906fe0-d9c1-11e2-b316-0019bb2963f4.html to http://www.amsterdamnews.com/arts_and_entertainment/cedar-walton-and-barry-harris-to-play-jazz-at-lincoln/article_4f906fe0-d9c1-11e2-b316-0019bb2963f4.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Template:Sourcecheck Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 04:29, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

Discography

I think there should be a seperate page for Bud's discography. It should I think reflect that of Art Tatum because of the sheer amount of work he's produced. Adamilo (talk) 03:46, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

Helpful webpage

http://www.wailthelifeofbudpowell.com/powell-chronology/ is a great source for anyone interested in learning more about Bud or editing this article Adamilo (talk) 23:30, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

This is a great source for some obscure periods of his life but I would be careful with this one. It is quite subjective, and the language it uses isn't always entirely clear. For example, it says that "Blakey walked off the date" of a 1955 session, completely leaving out that Kenny Clarke took his place the next day (https://www.jazzdisco.org/bud-powell/discography/). While I have used this source when it checks with other sources or no information is available, its subjectivity does need to be noted. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 14:38, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

As someone mentions below, the book appears to be self-published, which is a problem. See WP:SELFPUBLISH. Is there evidence that the possible exception to the principle of not using such sources applies? "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications". It's now used in about 20 places, so we need to sort this out before using it for more things, User:SelfieCity. EddieHugh (talk) 18:39, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

I understand these concerns. The problem is that many parts of Powell's life aren't well documented anywhere else. It's clear that Pullman has gone to great effort to gather obscure details of the pianist's life and that these are on the whole accurate. My concern is more with Pullman's bias than the factuality of the source. I'd also note that his book was covered by a number of sources including [1][2][3]. Removing information attributed to this source would necessitate removal of important parts of the article. It would be hard to construct an article that flowed without major gaps if his source were to be left out.

I'd note that the biographer below is the author of the book. I did not write the book and know no-one involved in its authorship. I haven't even read it, so my information is solely based on the online timeline he posted on that website. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 19:13, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

What I can do, however, is search for other sources in the sections of the article where Wail is cited and add those sources to the article. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 19:14, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

I've done this. Most of the instances of this source being used are now supported by a secondary source. However, there are circumstances where that source goes into more detail than other sources I have. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 14:58, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

In those cases, I've now removed the self-published source. In all other cases, I've added a tag. Without such tags (and maybe even with them), the information will eventually be repeated by reliable sources, even though it's based on an unreliable source, and then it'll look like the information is reliable... EddieHugh (talk) 21:34, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Cool, thanks for the help! I'll keep searching for better sources. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 16:37, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

COI

Editor Powell biographer, who has edited this article, has told us at WP:Help desk#how to link to a book from a footnote (that link will need to be updated in a few days when the entry gets archived) that he is the author of the biography of Powell cited in the article. I've no doubt that Powell Biographer has put a lot of work into his book and into this article: his book may be a very fine piece of work, but citing one's own work is generally reckoned a COI, and also I have just removed a blatantly promotional sentence about the book from the article. More seriously, the book appears to be self-published, which generally makes it an unreliable source for Wikipedia, and makes Powell biographer's contributions original research as far as Wikipedia is concerned. I have no knowledge of the subject, and have no wish to go wading into editing this article. But perhaps somebody with some knowledge about it can find other sources for the information cited to Wail - maybe working with Powell biographer to cite the sources cited in the book. --ColinFine (talk) 21:36, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Hello, ColinFine:

I hope to resolve the matter before us to your satisfaction. That is, I would like to have the banner that now appears at the top of the Bud Powell page removed. (I continue to have trouble understanding how to move about Wikipedia's user pages; I'm not confident, e.g., that these words will be seen by you or by anyone else who chooses to get involved in the matter.)

I submit one contribution to this discussion, coming as it does from someone whom I don't know. I read it as I clicked from page to page, hoping to learn how to get the banner removed:

http://www.wailthelifeofbudpowell.com/powell-chronology/ is a great source for anyone interested in learning more about Bud or editing this article Adamilo (talk) 23:30, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

Elsewhere I saw a reference to The Complete Bud Powell on Verve, a five-CD set.

That chronology, which is the source for many of the facts on the Powell page - as well as that CD set - is entirely my work. (The latter was cited by NARAS with a nomination for Best Liner Notes of 1994.) I constructed the chronology over the fifteen years that I spent in researching my book. Its findings have been accepted by the author of the University of Pennsylvania Press-issued Powell biography, by all authors of magazine articles, by all scholars in the field, and by Tom Lord, whose discography is the standard for jazz discography online.Powell biographer (talk) 10:44, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Per above, your book is self-published, so for the long term record — as it doesn't seem like your account is currently active — if we can find any other sources of information for citations that currently go to Wail, we should cite those sources instead. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 16:38, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

"He let the demons in" video

Hello, I just wanted to note that a video on YouTube has used much of my wording, particularly regarding the asylum and the poem "Eternity". I don't have a problem with this, but given the video was published a week ago, I want to be clear that the video's creator used content from this article, not the other way around. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 20:57, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

I think it's important to follow up here with an article published in The Spectator that straight up copies some parts of this Wikipedia article and then puts in them in contexts that make them inaccurate. Disagreements did not plague the 1964 Birdland shows; the author of that article, given the almost identical wording, mistook the reference in this article to the October 1964 recording session as a reference to the Birdland shows. Likewise the reference to the Tatum story takes details and fleshes them out with quotes I'm not aware of. I don't believe that article is a reliable source... --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 03:48, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

ECT, head injury, and wp:lead

The wp:lead should only contain what is supported in the body of the article. What is said in the lead is that ECT and a beating caused mental health problems. I'm not seeing that supported in the body of the article. Correlation does not mean causation. Why are ECT and a beating singled out in the lead in an apparent synthesis? For what it's worth, I see the article says "Creedmoor's forced administration of tranquilizers and sleeping pills and their negative impact upon Powell's health", but this isn't mentioned in the lead. Alcoholism can lead to brain disorders associated with thiamine deficiency, for example. Why is the lead so confident to pinpont the causes of his health problems when the body doesn't do that? What exactly do the sources say? Biosthmors (talk) 01:33, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure I've read his alcohol addiction came as a result of the beating, not the other way around. The main sources here are going to be Dance of the Infidels and The Complete Bud Powell on Verve. The latter definitely points out the ECT as the source of his mental health problems in its interviews section. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 16:00, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

Dance of the Infidels, on the other hand, goes into more detail about the earlier hospitalization and administration of tranquilizers and pills. However, there's no evidence that the first hospitalization affected his mental health after he was released, as far as I'm aware from the book. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 16:02, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

The lead shouldn't contain anything not covered in the body of the article. The sentence in the lead looks like an unsourced and potentially inaccurate synthesis. Additionally, it sounds like the sources are making health claims. Health claims require WP:MEDRS, as far as I am aware. These books wouldn't qualify. So we should attribute health claim opinions as such. Would you please pull out some quotes regarding these health claims? I don't have access to these texts. Biosthmors (talk) 16:39, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

I actually don't have access to Dance of the Infidels either as it seems Internet Archive has changed the access to this text. I'll see if I can buy it.

I've gone ahead and edited the lead based on your suggestions. As for the body of the article, I'm fine with citing those claims as opinions of the text once I can check the exact perspective of the respective authors. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 22:00, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

There is a source which I believe I've cited in this article (not a medical source) that does directly attribute ECT to his mental health decline [4].

There are also several sources that discuss more generally the impact of ECT on African-Americans at this time and the racial prejudice that led to many of the problems with this and other experimental treatments.

That said, I'm not strongly attached to the previous phrase in the lead and prefer the rewording. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 22:05, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

I've made some edits and additions to the lead. I think it should be fleshed out further to contextualize the biography, the time he was in France and New York, the alcohol and narcotic use, the self-neglect, the hospitalizations, the mental health "crises" (of which I can only think of suicidal risk), etc. And why would one guy, a "protector", save someone from alcohol use disorder and tuberculosis? That's a lot of responsibility to put on one person. It sounds quite odd. Biosthmors (talk) 14:01, 4 April 2025 (UTC)

Where’s the sourcing from a medical standpoint that he had a bout of alcoholism in 1951? I can’t agree with your edits. Additionally, Pullman’s Powell biography isn’t a reliable source, as it’s self-published. There are also npov concerns with labeling someone as a alcoholic, particularly if use of alcohol has a clear cause. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 05:22, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

There's now too much in the lead about his physical and mental health. Mentioning these things in the lead is important, but it needs a better balance. I don't think that WP:MEDRS is very relevant here – that's more for information in the field of medicine than for information about one person. If a source from a doctor is really needed, there's the coverage of Powell in Frederick Spencer's Jazz and Death. EddieHugh (talk) 09:17, 6 April 2025 (UTC)

I tend to agree. Although I'd say alcoholism is still alcoholism regardless of the exact cause. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:59, 6 April 2025 (UTC)

Can we go back to how the article was before? I don't understand why OP added several inline tags to the article when there was already a discussion going here, where those issues could have been raised.

Thanks for the additional source, that may be very useful. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 12:09, 7 April 2025 (UTC)

I've gone ahead with some edits, taking on board what everyone has said. I've mentioned the alcohol addiction as a cause of his death. I've replaced the mentions of ECT in the lede as institutionalizations, which is probably a better generalized term anyway. I've also cut down on some of the health references that were added during intermediate edits. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 12:17, 7 April 2025 (UTC)

I must note, however, something that concerns me about his edit. There were excessive references to Pullman here. Pullman's biography of Powell is self-published and not a reliable source. Further, I think it was Pullman himself who originally added the words "self-neglect" as a cause of death to this article — I don't believe I've seen those words anywhere else in sources describing Powell's cause of death. Correct me if I'm wrong. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 12:20, 7 April 2025 (UTC)

Never mind, I see now where that information came from. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 12:21, 7 April 2025 (UTC)

The article appears to contradict itself at present. Again, regarding wp:lead, the body of the article says this: "Gitler also cites 1953 and 1954 as when Powell became less talkative, more withdrawn, and less technically able as a pianist.[62] Powell was briefly married to Audrey Hill, but they separated and divorce proceedings were never finalized.[63] Powell and Charlie Parker developed a rivalry that resulted in feuding and bitterness on the bandstand, likely caused at least in part by the pianist's worsening physical and mental health.[64][65] One of his few New York engagements during this time, with Parker and Kenny Dorham in March 1955 shortly before the former's death, ended early when Parker and Powell had an argument.[66]" However, the lead speaks of a recovery. Where is the evidence for a partial health recovery in the body of the article during the mid 1950s, in particular? Biosthmors (talk) 17:31, 8 April 2025 (UTC)

1955 to 1959. There are sources thrughout the corresponding section of the article, including a DownBeat album review in 1955. This is discussed two paragraphs after the one you have cited.

Declining health followed by a recovery is not a contradiction. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 18:53, 8 April 2025 (UTC)

I'm not seeing it. Those paragraphs mention "ill health ... psychotherapy ... further hospital stays." Why does the lead create a narrative that is not evident in the body of the article? Is the lead entirely relying on an opinion of Attorney Cohen? Biosthmors (talk) 20:34, 8 April 2025 (UTC)

No. Should the entire lead be based on Nat Hentoff's opinion? This is not to mention that there are numerous album recordings and tours from the period in question, which there aren't from late 1951 to early 1953 or from most of 1954.

I genuinely don't understand what doesn't make sense about a "partial recovery". He was released from hospital in 1953 and was regularly making records, without being fully recovered. This quote from the lead is directly based on the details mentioned later.

The lead could claim that Powell was a permanent alcoholic after 1953 who never made a record again, but that would be factually inaccurate as I think is clear from the sources in the article. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 20:54, 8 April 2025 (UTC)

Conflating musical productivity with health status isn't our job. That would be original research. Do the sources do so? I don't see it. Biosthmors (talk) 16:58, 10 April 2025 (UTC)