Talk:Battle of Bad Axe

Misleading

This article is misleading and needs a lot more information to be complete. The casualty estimates for the Indian side are very conservative based on what I found. This was more a massacre than it was a battle. I have found a few sources which might help out here.([1], [2]) There it at least needs to be mentioned of how the battle played out, it wasn't just warriors that were killed. It would seem that the previous Indian Creek massacre may have been used for justification. ([3]). IvoShandor 07:34, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

No responses, I am assuming there will be no protests if this article is moved to Bad Axe massacre. If the events at Spafford Farm and Buffalo Grove are massacres so is this "battle" at the Bad Axe River. IvoShandor 08:22, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

2nd - as it now reads, the "battle" can't be called anything but a massacre. Of course if the facts cited are wrong... but I'd trust the text more than the Title.

Also it might be reasonable to put a geographic reference in here, e.g. latitude and longitude so that a map can be found easily. From Bad Axe River I finally found

• Satellite image from Google Maps Lat. and Long. should be in here somewhere.

Can't find Helena, Wisconsin anywhere. Maybe the reference to "present day Helena" is a bit out-dated. Smallbones 21:28, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps, just remove the present day? IvoShandor 21:32, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Seems it still exists, see: [4]

IvoShandor 21:35, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

OK - it's the one in Iowa County, Wisconsin. But existence is relative (at least in this case). It's right across the river from Spring Green, Wisconsin. The much larger Spring Green has a pop of 1,500. I'd switch it to Spring Green. Smallbones 21:51, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

I am okay with whatever non-main authors find clearer, change away. IvoShandor 21:54, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

I started an article about Helena, Wisconsin and I hope it helps. maybe I am crazy for doing it. Thank you- RFD 21:52, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Red Mound and Retreat, Wisconsin in Vernon County, Wisconsin

I started articles about Red Mound, Wisconsin and Retreat, Wisconsin in Vernon County, Wisconsin in case you need them. Thank you- RFD 15:05, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Excellent, I will see where they fit in. This article, the main article and the Battle of Stillman's Run are the three our collaboration will attempt to get FA status for, on the way to a broader featured topic.IvoShandor 04:18, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

If this was a "massacre" it was only due to the military ineptness of the Indians. These savages seem only to have had success when they attacked unexpectedly and in overwhelming numbers. I'm sick and tired of seeing Indians portrayed as victims. These people had no one but themselves to blame for their fate.

Daver852 (talk) 19:47, 18 February 2009 (UTC)daver852

Copyedit

• I am finally finishing a copyedit I started a while ago. Since Ivo is on a wikibreak, I will leave these comments here.

1. I think it would be useful to put a caption on the photo in the Infobox.
2. Prelude: Based on what Ivo told me (see here) I moved Neapope's speech earlier in the night and clarified the timing of the militia that night and the following week in the paragraphs following.
3. Battle - I added a sentence that Blackhawk's band was almost certainly not involved in the Indian Creek Massacre, which the troops on the steamboat Warrior referred to when first opening fire on them.
4. Context - I put the statements by Street (day after the battle) and Grimsley (2005) in chronological order. Some of Grimsley's quotes about the blood making the Mississippi red might be effective in the Battle section.
5. Aftermath - I added Blackhawk's autobiography and death and made a few other copyedits

Will finish this tomorrow, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 04:43, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

• Finished the last two sections just now, done with my copyedits - looks good, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 02:58, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Now I see this, ha. Hmm. I am thinking of adding the quote you recommend here and expanding a bit on the military movements of both sides in the battle section. Any thoughts on what else to do for an FA bid? IvoShandor (talk) 01:26, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

"Battle?"

This can barely be known as such. Such reckless killing should be called a massacre. This is why I believe that the article should be changed to "Massacre of Bad Axe." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Trilobite12 (talk • contribs) 00:07, March 5, 2008

• Thanks, while I agree it was a massacre, the name it is known by in reliable sources is Battle of Bad Axe. Do you have reliable sources that call it "Massacre of Bad Axe"? Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 00:20, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
• I wouldn't mind seeing it changed myself, WP has a habit of affecting how other outlets refer to incidents. At quick glance, I see that as early as 1903 published book authors were referring to it as "the Massacre of Bad Axe", and more recently I see that the Wisconsin Historical Society does the same. I think it's enough to call for a WP vote. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 01:10, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Does anyone want to start an RFC on the name change? On Google books, searching for the words Massacre Bad Axe gets 611 hits, while the exact phrase "Battle of Bad Axe" gets 617 hits, and "Bad Axe Massacre" gets 40 hits, but the Massacre books tend to be newer. I would support changing the name to Bad Axe Massacre. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:24, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

• As the primary author of most Wikipedia's content related to the Black Hawk War, I too would support the name change. The wonton murder that occurred at the mouth of the Bad Axe River can be accurately described in no other way. While many sources refer to it as a battle, just as many, some dating back to shortly after the conflict, have called it a massacre (this is briefly discussed within the article). IvoShandor (talk) 06:04, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

It's been a month with five straight voices in favour of the change, I went ahead and changed it. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 06:21, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I wonder if Bad Axe Massacre would be a bit better? IvoShandor (talk) 06:25, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I think it sounds better and nice to see you back. Thanks too to Sherurcij for making the move. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 00:06, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Not a problem, moved to the newer name. To be honest, I'd never heard of this until I came across the 1832 article sitting in my hands one day, and checked Wiki to find out what this "Bad Axe" was, and added the detail about the child. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 00:20, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Review

As requested, here are some comments on looking at the article with an eye to FAC. This looks pretty good and these are all pretty nitpicky. I also ran the semi-automated peer review script on it and it is below:

The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.

• Watch for redundancies that make the article too wordy instead of being crisp and concise. (You may wish to try Tony1's redundancy exercises.)
  • Vague terms of size often are unnecessary and redundant - “some”, “a variety/number/majority of”, “several”, “a few”, “many”, “any”, and “all”. For example, “All pigs are pink, so we thought of a number of ways to turn them green.”
• Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a.^[?]

You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 02:19, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

• Lead still starts with "The Battle of Bad Axe, also known as the Bad Axe Massacre, occurred ...", since the title has been changed, this should be too, perhaps "The Bad Axe Massacre, also known as the Battle of Bad Axe, occurred ..."

• Fixed this.--IvoShandor (talk) 04:04, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

• Date linkiing is now deprecated and the dates will be delinked at FAC if they are not delinked before

• I'll get someone to assist with a js tool.--IvoShandor (talk) 04:04, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

• I would say "Mississippi River" here and link it - not everyone around the world will know just Mississippi is the river in The militia caught up with them on the eastern bank of the Mississippi ....

• Done.--IvoShandor (talk) 04:04, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

• "... a few miles downstream from the mouth of the Bad Axe River" Any chance to be more exact and then also provide kilometers?
• Background - why did it take 14 years between the treaty and vacating the tribal lands? Is this worth a breif explanation?

• Added to it, should be clearer now.--IvoShandor (talk) 04:04, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

• My preference is not to go to FAC with any red links in the article - just me though
• I would make it clearer at the start of Prelude that they are stilll on the battlefield just after the Battle of Wisconsin Heights - it is less than clear now

• Not quite sure how to make this clearer, I mentioned it once more, take a look, lemme know if this is clear or not.--IvoShandor (talk) 04:04, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

• Need to explain who Dodge and Henry are in set out to join Henry Dodge and James D. Henry to regroup and resupply at Fort Blue Mounds

• Tried to qualify them as "militia commanders", could be more specific with "militia generals" or some such thing.--IvoShandor (talk) 04:15, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

• In Battle, perhaps clarify which river in While some of the band managed to escape across the river that afternoon ... (M or BA?)

• Fixed this.--IvoShandor (talk) 04:15, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

• I owuld make it clearer the woman killed was holding her child in including one young woman estimated to be 19 years old; she was shot through her child's upper arm as she stood watching the battle

• Tried to clarify this.--IvoShandor (talk) 04:15, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

• Mile is linked - this is a common term. Watch for overlinking of common terms to be a problem in FAC

• Done.--IvoShandor (talk) 04:15, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

• In Context, do not use Template:Tl (curly quotes) per WP:MOSQUOTE, use Template:Tl instead

• Fixed.--IvoShandor (talk) 04:15, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

• In Aftermath I would link Winfield Scott at the first instance in As well as the combat casualties of the war, a relief force under General Winfield Scott ...

• Linked.--IvoShandor (talk) 04:15, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Hope this helps, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 02:19, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

• Of course it helps! Thanks Ruhr.--IvoShandor (talk) 04:15, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved to Battle of Bad Axe. The position arising from the discussion appears to be that while a number of reliable sources consider the battle to have been a massacre, the title "Battle of Bad Axe" is used considerably more often in those sources than "Bad Axe Massacre". The consensus, relying on WP:COMMONNAME, is therefore in favour of a move. Mkativerata (talk) 20:32, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

---

Bad Axe Massacre → Battle of Bad AxeBattle of Bad Axe — Per WP:COMMONNAME. This is the name overwhelmingly preferred by reliable sources. —Kevin Myers 01:47, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

This was discussed a couple years ago (in the section above entitled "Battle?"), but with an inadequate survey of the reliable sources and discussion of Wikipedia naming guidelines. Google searches reveal that "Battle of Bad Axe" is preferred to "Bad Axe Massacre" by about 20 to 1. Here's the current breakdown of Google hits:

• "Battle of Bad Axe": 557,000 Google web hits, 2,590 Google book hits, 223 Google scholar hits
• "Bad Axe massacre": 31,200 web hits, 123 book hits, 15 scholar hits
• "Massacre of Bax Axe": 156 web hits, 19 book hits, 5 scholar hits

Additionally, I have the four modern academic books on the Black Hawk War in front of me (by Nichols, Trask, Jung, and Hall). They all use the term "Battle of Bad Axe", not "Bad Axe Massacre". Practically everyone acknowledges that a massacre took place on that day, but the term "Battle of Bad Axe" still predominates by a large margin, and is the title we should use. —Kevin Myers 02:00, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

• As someone who supported the move to the current title, I did not have access to the modern academic books, and am fine with moving it. Thanks, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 02:54, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

• The evidence and logic of the proposed move is unassailable, nevertheless I don't see any problem with calling a spade a spade. Mark me neutral Smallbones (talk) 03:13, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose: I used to be neutral on this and I've read Trask and Jung's books, if everyone acknowledges that this "battle" was a massacre I cannot see any reason to move the page. IvoShandor (talk) 05:25, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Your argument seems a bit muddled. Trask and Jung both use the proper noun "Battle of Bad Axe", and not "Bad Axe Massacre", to describe these events. They do characterize some of what happened as a massacre, but that's not the title they give to the event. You may also want to review WP:COMMONNAME and WP:POVTITLE. —Kevin Myers 06:09, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

I am familiar with both of those pages. There is no way this can neutrally be called a battle anyway. Battles consist of people fighting each other, not being indiscriminately slaughtered. But my opinion is the weight of one person, I will of course abide by consensus. IvoShandor (talk) 06:13, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree with your sentiments, but our opinions on what terms the reliable sources should use are not relevant here. Alas, we cannot overrule the preponderance of reliable sources just because we disagree with them. Your quarrel is really with the reliable sources (like Trask and Jung) who overwhelmingly prefer the term "Battle of Bad Axe", and with the Wikipedia policies that say we must follow the reliable sources. —Kevin Myers 06:27, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

While I also agree this was a massacre, since all four recent books on the Black Hawk War call it the "Battle of Bad Axe", I do not think the naming guidelines here give us any choice but to move it. I also note that the lead could be much clearer that the "battle" was in fact a one-sided "massacre". So the first paragraph of the lead could read something like the following. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 16:43, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

• The Battle of Bad Axe, also known as the Bad Axe Massacre, occurred 1–2 August 1832, between Sauk (Sac) and Fox Indians and United States Army regulars and militia. This final, one-sided battle of the Black Hawk War, which historians have called a massacre since the 1850s, took place near present-day Victory, Wisconsin in the United States. It marked the end of the war between white settlers and militia in Illinois and Michigan Territory, and the Sauk and Fox tribes under Chief Black Hawk. Over 150 Native Americans were killed, many of them women and children, while US military forces lost 5 dead.

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

A two-day battle?

Was the Battle of Bad Axe a two-day "battle" or a one-day battle that was preceded by a skirmish the day before? This is more of a semantic issue than a substantive one, and affects only a few sentences and headings. The web article by James Lewis that is currently the predominant source for this article clearly describes it as a one-day battle. He writes: "Before dawn on August 2, the Battle of Bad Axe began." According to Lewis, the "Battle of Bad Axe" is what happened on August 2, and the encounter with the Warrior was a prelude to the "battle". Not every source is so explicit, but a quick Google Books survey suggests to me that other writers usually (but not always) take the same approach. Concur? —Kevin Myers 01:29, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Do whatever you think needs to be done to improve the article. I will not take issue with it myself but we may want to see what others think.IvoShandor (talk) 05:16, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

I made the map, and have looked at one of the recent books briefly. Other than that what I know of the Black Hawk War comes from reading the articles here. I trust you and the sources you cite. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 17:32, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

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Renaming

I think renaming this the "Bad Axe Massacre" article is in better taste than keeping it as a "battle," since a "battle" implies two sides of equal power, whereas this was a one sided turkey shoot on civilians. Thoughts? Ms.23 (talk) 19:12, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

@Oxyaena by all means please do 2620:0:E50:3401:F04D:8E86:9F45:6EEB (talk) 16:43, 25 March 2022 (UTC)