Talk:Babi Yar

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Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 November 2024

The Russian text for Над Бабьим Яром памятников нет is currently in transliteraiton. Can we put it in the original with transliteration beside? —NJJ2100 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Njj2100 (talk • contribs) 20:40, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

I tried putting it in. Let's see if it sticks. DolyaIskrina (talk) 05:13, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Awesome; thanks! Looks like it's sticking for now :) Njj2100 (talk) 18:59, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Documents in the book

The terrible documents written by murderous Germans who acted in Babi Yar can be written in the book “The good old days” by Ernst Klee and others.

Contested claim of OUN-M killings and proposed edit

This article should reflect the contested nature of the circumstances surrounding OUN-M members' deaths at Babyn Yar. Yuri Radchenko examines the claim that Teliha died in Babyn Yar here, concluding that this assertion is as of yet unfounded, echoing Rudling.

To summarise Radchenko's work, beyond an alleged lack of evidence, Kyiv Mayor Leontiy Forostovsky and Teliga's fellow inmate Stefanyk asserted that she took her own life in prison with a piece of broken glass following ruthless beatings and torture during interrogations. This is followed by Orest Bilak in his memoirs testifying to an instance where he and his surrounding Melnykites would assume that members who disappeared without a trace were killed in Babyn Yar.

It's inferred by Radchenko that the idea that she died in Babyn Yar arose as a myth from the emigre diaspora (many of them former OUN-M members)-- Rudling goes a step further to criticise the popular narrative.

Radchenko part 1, part 2, part 3. I've also put this in Teliha's talk page. 2A00:23C5:11E:F901:1DB9:6FD4:8E9C:68A9 (talk) 11:21, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

I mentioned something about this a while ago. Mellk (talk) 11:25, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

It ought to be changed, I'm more than a little perturbed that Rudling's more well known and oft cited work is omitted. 2A00:23C5:11E:F901:1DB9:6FD4:8E9C:68A9 (talk) 11:29, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

Here's my proposed edit:

It is popularly cited in post-Soviet Ukraine that the Germans executed 621 OUN members, Olena Teliha and her husband among them, at Babi Yar.

Yuri Radchenko examined this claim and found it to be as of yet unsupported beyond its appearance in former OUN members' memoirs, coming to the conclusion that the most probable theory surrounding Teliha's death was that she took her own life in prison following ruthless beatings and torture at the hands of Nazi police, based on the testimonies of a fellow inmate and the Mayor of Kyiv at the time as well as the memoirs of a former OUN-M member that wrote that it was commonplace to assume that those who disappeared without a trace had been killed at Babyn Yar. Per Anders Rudling echoes this conclusion and criticises the popular narrative, accusing efforts to memorialise the alleged killings (pertaining to the location) of attempting to overshadow and forget the other 100,000 estimated to have been killed there. 2A00:23C5:11E:F901:CF9:243F:3265:BAD8 (talk) 15:03, 14 June 2025 (UTC)

I only had a cursory look at the sources you cited but it seems like there might be issues with WP:OR in this version. Can you provide quotes from the sources if they directly support the statement? Mellk (talk) 15:13, 14 June 2025 (UTC)

Sure, nothing I've written here is original research and it's a good faith representation of the cited works. For Rudling, you can see p.28 (p.18 on the pdf) or ctrl+f for "victim nation" and "This mythical narrative relied partly on the OUN’s own post-war forgeries, aimed at cover up the organization’s problematic past" is found in the abstract.

Radchenko's work is however in blog form and in two parts but first using Chrome's translate tool you can ctrl+f for:

In part one:

-"So far, no document has been provided that" to evidence the 'as of yet unsupported' conclusion referring to the claim that Melkynites were executed at Babyn Yar.

In part two:

-"In the first years after the war" to find where he talks about former OUN members' memoirs and their testimonies regarding the alleged killings (again just referring to the location they were killed).

-Specifically "As Bilak reported" to find the assertion about the 'assumption'-- "commonplace" is actually a little unfair, Radchenko quotes Bilak as referring to a single incident

-"Kyiv mayor Leontiy Forostovsky" to find his testimony and that of Teliha's fellow inmate. At the end of this paragraph, Radchenko writes "This version of Teliga's death seems the most plausible." (Teliha's name translates to 'Teliga' in Google Translate)

The remainder of the sources I took from Olena Teliha's page as I just updated that, feel free to forgo them for the ones already cited in this article. OUN-M members' memoirs are what's cited today but at the top of part one, Radchenko details how this alleged myth began with leaflets distributed in postwar displacement camps. 2A00:23C5:11E:F901:CF9:243F:3265:BAD8 (talk) 21:19, 14 June 2025 (UTC)

Second part looks fine but what about the first part which states that the figure is popularly citied in post-Soviet Ukraine? Mellk (talk) 08:53, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

This is where I was a bit sloppier and put too much faith in the sources cited on Teliha's page and that sentence is dodgy. Radchenko part one backs this up best (ctrl+f for "62" which are 'confirmed' in memoirs) but specifically for the 621 number, it was Ukrainian nationalists making that claim as per Rudling (search "621") which you may access on sci-hub if that's something you're comfortable with. Yad Vashem mentions this as well (again search "621").

I would amend the first sentence thus: It is popularly cited in post-Soviet Ukraine that as many as 621 OUN members were executed at Babi Yar, with poetess Olena Teliha and her husband among the 62 corroborated by former OUN members' memoirs. 2A00:23C5:11E:F901:519B:262:9471:8BD4 (talk) 09:58, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

It does not seem like those sources explicitly state that this is "popularly cited in post-Soviet Ukraine". Rudling says: "In 1992, Ukrainian Nationalists set up a memorial in Babyn Yar, claiming that 621 'members of the anti-Nazi underground' of the OUN-M were shot there." So it seems we should instead write that nationalists have cited this figure? Mellk (talk) 12:13, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

Yes you're right, I didn't recognise Volodymyr Viatrovych (from Radchenko part one) on my earlier reading. Thanks for your patience. 2A00:23C5:11E:F901:519B:262:9471:8BD4 (talk) 15:21, 15 June 2025 (UTC)