Wiki143:Reference desk/Humanities

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June 17

Which kinds of sources exist for contemporary South Korean politics?

If I want to know Kevin Rudd's thoughts, I can find an e-book on Amazon and run it through a machine translator if I don't speak English. If I want to read about the K-Belt Initiative, a Korean system of grants and tax policy to encourage semiconductor production, do they have a political culture of ministers publishing books on their pet projects? Shushimnotrealstooge (talk) 15:29, 17 June 2025 (UTC)

Confused, how is Rudd relevant, either in his role as PM or his role as ambassador to the US? Nyttend (talk) 21:31, 17 June 2025 (UTC)

They's using a random contemporary Australian politician as an example. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:03, 17 June 2025 (UTC)

Probably just the news. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:04, 17 June 2025 (UTC)

Read the paper: The Korea Herald. DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 23:29, 17 June 2025 (UTC)

Let me say this differently: if I go to the National Assembly's website, can I ask to see the sponsors and co-sponsors of this bill? I would like to know what Korean political participation beyond reading the newspaper looks like. Shushimnotrealstooge (talk) 01:03, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

Template:TqbYes. You don't even need to ask anyone, just click on (Google-translated) "pending bills" and then click on the one whose sponsors ("proposers") you want to see. Aaron Liu (talk) 04:26, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

June 18

Nagasaki oopsie?

A sentence in "This Earth of Hours" (1959) by James Blish:

Getting along with these people on the first contact would be vital, and yet the language barrier might well provoke a tragedy wanted by neither side, as the obliteration of Nagasaki in World War II had been provoked by the mistranslation of a single word.

This is new to me. Is there any truth to it? —Tamfang (talk) 05:10, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

None whatsoever. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:41, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

There is a claim that a misinterpretation of the Japanese verb 黙殺する (mokusatsu suru) contributed to the decision to bomb Hiroshima; see here. I have not tried to evaluate this, but note that Wiktionary gives both the sense "to withhold comment" and "to treat with silent contempt".  ​‑‑Lambiam 06:50, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

WHAAOE: Mokusatsu.  ​‑‑Lambiam 06:58, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

Mentioned at Potsdam Declaration#Aftermath. DuncanHill (talk) 07:00, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

There was also miscommunication over the meaning of "unconditional surrender", described in various histories of the bombings and probably in Wikipedia. 2601:644:8581:75B0:9C2D:563:979D:9458 (talk) 20:57, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

Looking for article

I saw an article a month or two ago, that I think was a blurb about an academic paper, and might have been in one of the "science daily" type of pop-science sites. It talked about non-literate societies (indigenous cultures etc.) that had contact with the outside world, and decided that widespread literacy was something they didn't want or need, since literate societies developed text-based (I remember the term "text-based") rule and legal systems that were then subject to manipulation and whatever the real-world equivalent of wikilawyering is called. That in turn led to inequities developing that a face-to-face culture did a better job of avoiding. Does this sound familiar to anyone? I'm not having any luck with search engines. Thanks. 2601:644:8581:75B0:9C2D:563:979D:9458 (talk) 21:02, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

Total shot in the dark: Coomaraswamy, Ananda K., Bugbear of Literacy (1945) seem to be along the lines of what you're looking for. MediaKyle (talk) 21:12, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

Thanks, that looks interesting. I'll try some more web searches based on it. I think the article I saw referred to something more recent, but this will help. 2601:644:8581:75B0:9C2D:563:979D:9458 (talk) 00:50, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

There are various texts with an incisive analysis of the ailments of Western technocratic society presented from a point of view of some person who only recently made contact with that society, a primitive but unspoilt, ingenue, noble savage. These are invariably fabrications. The reality is that any such person would be gobsmacked, flabbergasted, and unable to make much sense of their bewildering experiences until they become embedded in Western society.  ​‑‑Lambiam 01:17, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

Yes I'd have to again see the article I mentioned to tell what was involved. I do remember that Ishi was transplanted into US society (late 1800s I guess) and lived in it for decades. When he was old, someone supposedly asked him if there were any worthwhile modern inventions. His answer was "matches". 2601:644:8581:75B0:7504:799F:8140:AC84 (talk) 22:44, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

Alas, neither TB vaccines nor anthropologists smart enough to discourage their immunologically vulnerable charges/subjects, that they transported into the heart of a modern city, from frequenting hospital wards had yet been invented. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 06:24, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

Sounds like the anthropologist James Scott’s “The Art of Not Being Governed”. Can’t remember if he claims that some peoples deliberately turned their backs on literacy but definitely says that illiteracy has advantages in terms of ideology flexibility and preventing formation of hierarchies. Prezbo (talk) 23:08, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

That would be James C. Scott's The Art of Not Being Governed. DuncanHill (talk) 23:54, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

Nothing to fear...

We are told "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself—nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes...", and we are told that this is a paraphrase of Henry David Thoreau's "Nothing is so much to be feared as fear." E. F. Benson's story "The Terror by Night" (1912) mentions "Fear and misgiving, blind, unreasonable, and paralysing", and then our narrator tells us "There is nothing in the world to fear except fear. You know that as well as I do". Do we know when the journal entry of Thoreau's was first published? and do we know of any other expressions of a similar sentiment between whenever that was and Benson's use? Did Benson read Thoreau? His "you know that as well as I do" suggests to me he was using a fairly well-known idea. And the similarity between FDR's "unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes" and Benson's "blind, unreasonable, and paralysing" fear are also suggestive to me. Is there another author Benson and Roosevelt may have read in common? Or did Roosevelt read Benson? DuncanHill (talk) 21:38, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

September 7, 1851 according to a Thoreau Society blog post with some suggested reading. fiveby(zero) 22:13, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

That was the entry date, not the date the entry was published. DuncanHill (talk) 22:21, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

oops, how about this tho Template:Quote

Be not afraid of sudden fear, Neither of the desolation of the wicked, when it cometh. Proverbs 3:25

The only thing I am afraid of is fear. Wellington November 3, 1831. Stanhope (1888) Notes of Conversations with the Duke of Wellington

fiveby(zero) 22:39, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

Ah thank you, Benson would certainly have known his Proverbs, and would have assumed his readers did too, especially in a story which takes its title from Psalm 91. That one I really ought to have known. And Montaigne, Bacon, Burke, and Wellington, yes they make sense, I can hear them thinking it. Thank you, I expect we're rather overdazzled by FDR nowadays to remember earlier uses. DuncanHill (talk) 22:49, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

Well I know of Bartlett and he must have known his Proverbs, but could have sworn that Wellington quote has popped up on the desks before. Emerson's "Biographical Sketch" in Excursions and has "I subjoin a few sentences taken from his unpublished manuscripts..." and quotes so posthumously 1863 for first publication? fiveby(zero) 00:03, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

Volume 8 of The Writings of Henry David Thoreau, containing the sentence, was published in 1906.  ​‑‑Lambiam 00:53, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

June 19

Is Mosely Mosley?

The Zack Mosely mentioned in the Skyroads (comics) article as being its illustrator for 1930–32, is that actually Zack Mosley or is it just another comic artist with a very similar name? 37.247.31.205 (talk) 05:10, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

This obituary of Zachariah Terrell Mosley relates that he found his first job as cartoonist in 1929 as assistant on two daily strips by Dick Calkins, one being "Skyroads".  ​‑‑Lambiam 07:29, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

The 'Mosely' in the Skyroads article infobox was evidently a typo, which I've now corrected and linked to his article. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.41.216 (talk) 16:22, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

Why didn't ISIS mount a major attack on Israel during the Syrian Civil War?

It seems like they must have had the opportunity. Was it a strategic choice, other priorities, something else? Prezbo (talk) 10:01, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate.DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 22:35, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

Islamic State explains why it doesn’t attack Israel (yet) Aaron Liu (talk) 00:50, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

Thanks Prezbo (talk) 02:44, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

Similar to a dictatorship, internal enemies have a higher priority than external enemies. ISIS prioritizes attacking its internal Muslim enemies, especially “apostates” who do not conform to its ideology or renounce Islamic teachings, rather than external enemies such as Israel. Stanleykswong (talk) 20:10, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

I don't remember whether The Prince had recommendations about that, but it sounds like common sense. 2601:644:8581:75B0:6E68:5922:69B1:DD4D (talk) 23:14, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

Comics with two-colour print

There used to be comic books and magazines with bicolour print, often black and red, but also black and other colours. Which books used this the most or was most known for it? Was this during all of last century? ... 94.234.94.184 (talk) 15:11, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

Proper books (meaning, not periodicals) used this sometimes too. It was much cheaper than full-colour printing and (supposedly) nicer looking than plain black and white. I mostly associate it with mid-century (say, 1950s to 1970s) as colour became cheaper and higher-quality through the decades. Dr. Seuss didn't technically use it, but the palette used was certainly evocative of it and it was frequently used for early-age reading texts (examples), though not Dick and Jane. I don't recall a lot of comics using two-colour printing; they used reduced palettes, but not usually to that degree. Matt Deres (talk) 23:24, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

I think it was pretty common among British children's comics of the 20th century, the likes of The Beano, and parodies thereof like Viz. Chuntuk (talk) 14:00, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

1940's film with truckload of dynamite

My father recalls watching a film, probably in the 1940s, in a cinema in England. It was in a foreign language, probably French, with subtitles, and featured a truckload of dynamite (or some other explosive), whose brakes had failed. It was not a war film. What might it have been? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:54, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

Sounds rather like The Wages of Fear, though that was 1953. Excellent film, by the way. --Antiquary (talk) 19:07, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

He confirms it is, and thanks you, as do I. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:10, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

Seconded, that was a great movie. 2601:644:8581:75B0:7504:799F:8140:AC84 (talk) 22:39, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

June 21

John Ward (geologist): dates etc

I just wrote John Ward (geologist). We have his dates, but not his place of burial.

I have a source saying that his wife, who survived him, was "the daughter of the late Mr. Robert Cooke, of Fenton", but it does not name her.

We know that he was a town councillor, and alderman, but not his political affiliation.

Can anyone fill in those gaps, or add anything else, please? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:02, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

Checking Newspapers.com (pay site), the Staffordshire Sentinel for December 8, 1906, p.10, talks about this guy extensively.[1] His place of death is given as Longton. It says the funeral was held in the Borough Cemetery at Longton. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:19, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

(ec) :Conservative. Staffordshire Sentinel - Monday 03 December 1906, page 6 has two stories, "Death of John Ward, JP, FGS, of Longton", and "Alderman Ward as a Geologist". No mention of wife. Will email the page. DuncanHill (talk) 20:27, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

For a second there, I thought you wrote him a letter for some information. Then I read the second sentence. Clarityfiend (talk) 07:18, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

An Englishman would write to John Ward. DuncanHill (talk) 11:32, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

Funeral took place on Tuesday 4th December 1906, in the afternoon, at the Longton Borough Cemetery. Reported the same day in the Staffordshire Sentinel. No wife mentioned. DuncanHill (talk) 11:00, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

John Ward, born 1837, married Eliza Cooke born 1835, St Peter ad Vincula, Stoke on Trent, 15 March 1860. Bride's father was Robert Cooke. Bride's residence Fenton. DuncanHill (talk) 00:00, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

June 22

Wikis at Fandom inconsistent??

For some reason, some Wikis at Fandom are inconsistent on the information they say. For example:

The Disney Wiki says that the period where Owl lives at Piglet's House is just temporary. But the Winniepoodia, however, says that Owl permanently lives in Piglet's House and that modern media just ignores this fact. (Winniepoodia should not be confused with pooh.fandom.com even though both are wikis at Fandom that have Pooh as their subject.)

Are lots of wikis at Fandom inconsistent with respect to what they say?? Georgia guy (talk) 00:35, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

What are their sourcing standards? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:02, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

There are zillions of wikis, all run by different people and having different sourcing protocols etc etc. Of course they're often going to say different things about the same subject. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 06:39, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

User:JackofOz, has Fandom proposed any way to make sure such disagreements are resolved?? Georgia guy (talk) 10:12, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

Fandom (website) is a hosting service; they do not care at all about the users of different clients posting inconsistent details about the goings on at the Hundred Acre Wood. Matt Deres (talk) 13:14, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

And note that the Disney Wiki likely reflects the details in Disney cartoons, etc., which often make changes from the original stories on which they are based – a source of annoyance particularly to Europeans who see their cultural heritage being thus violated. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.41.216 (talk) 15:20, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

Why not just read The House at Pooh Corner yourself to find out? It's not exactly War & Peace, and a fun read even if you are decades beyond the age group of its intended audience. Chuntuk (talk) 15:54, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

Der Stänker

File:Der Stänker.png

Does anyone have any idea who the "new guest" is supposed to be in the 1914 cartoon Der Stänker? Japan maybe? (See here for some notes on the cartoon.) Zacwill (talk) 08:23, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

Also, am I right in thinking that the implication in the first panel is that Serbia won't stop farting, or am I being vulgar? Zacwill (talk) 09:39, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

I suspect that the "late" guest may be the Ottoman Empire. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 11:24, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

I assumed that the black-moustached figure on Germany and Austria's left represented Turkey, but perhaps he is meant to be Hungary? Or Italy? Zacwill (talk) 12:36, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

Non, il est un poilu. DuncanHill (talk) 13:09, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

France is on the far side between England and Russia, surely. Zacwill (talk) 13:13, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

Agree, and logically, the near-side far left figure should be Italy, next to Germany, then Austria-Hungary. I concur with Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM that the figure in the doorway is the Ottoman Empire. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.41.216 (talk) 15:15, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

The first text literally states "The neighbours [say] (every five minutes): This can't go on any longer". Notice the Title "Der Stänker" which literally means someone who stinks up. However the common meaning would be something like "Stänkerer", i. e. someone who's looking for trouble, for a fight. So Serbia farts, i.e. causes a stink. All neighbours get into a fight. The new guest is not a neighbour, so it must be the Ottoman Empire that had close ties to Germany.--92.210.45.32 (talk) 15:54, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

Karajovo

In 1906 there was a massacre at Karajovo, which led to Mr Wedgwood asking a question in the House. So, where was Karajovo and who were the assailants, disguised as Turkish troops? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 11:11, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

The Bulgarian Wikipedia has an article on the massacre. It took place at the Bulgarian village of Gorno Karadjovo (now Monokklisia) and was carried out by Greeks as revenge for an earlier Bulgarian attack. See Macedonian struggle. Zacwill (talk) 12:25, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

Thank you. DuncanHill (talk) 13:12, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

I'm having difficulty verifying that Karajovo (Bulgaria) is now Monokklisia, Greece. The history on Historical Museum Karlovo website makes no mention of "Monokklisia". --136.56.165.118 (talk) 17:51, 22 June 2025 (UTC) oops -- the search automatically defaulted to "Karlovo" by trying to be helpful -21:17, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

But why would it? Karlovo is miles away from Gorno Karadjovo. DuncanHill (talk) 18:55, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

Hansard do spell it Karadjovo elsewhere. DuncanHill (talk) 19:04, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

To be clear, Karadjovo wasn't in Bulgaria. It was an ethnically Bulgarian village in the Macedonia region, which was part of the Ottoman Empire at the time. After Macedonia was partitioned between Serbia, Bulgaria, and Greece in 1913, it became part of the latter. Zacwill (talk) 06:08, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

Major Attlee's typewriter

In we read that Clement Attlee could be found writing his speeches in the flat at No. 10 "picking out his text with two fingers on a non-standard keyboard, probably going back to Stepney days". So what non-standard keyboard did he use, and has it survived? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 11:27, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

Might have been one of these or similar (see the Scientific keyboard section). I suggest this because I've got one (a Model 5 made in 1896 in Stamford, Connecticut) which my mother's family (in England) must have acquired no later than 1950 (she learned to type on it), but probably earlier, possibly even from new.

Being the first practical portable typewrighter, they were sold and later manufactured worldwide around the turn of the century, so Atlee might well have used or even acquired one when working in Stepney from 1906 as successively a charity volunteer, political candidate, lecturer, Mayor, and (from 1922) MP. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.41.216 (talk) 14:52, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

If you hunt-and-peck with two fingers what does it matter what keyboard layout you're using? Possibly just figurative language, reading the surrounding paragraphs it is to my mind a possible comparison with Churchill's peculiarities of speech writing. That might be due more to my popular American understanding of the personalities tho. fiveby(zero) 15:00, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

I think Wilson was illustrating Attlee's frugality and lack of concern for show. If he had a serviceable typewriter it would not occur to him to replace it with a more modern machine. DuncanHill (talk) 23:45, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

What is this BibleProject?

I read the Wikipedia article BibleProject. The mission says: "help people experience the Bible as a unified story that leads to Jesus". Eh? Some kind of generic Christian app/website? On this page, the video calls Adam and Eve "priestly humans". What does that even mean? I am just reading and taking notes in my King James Version Bible, and I just use that one because it is most influential on the English language, and I want to find the fancy quotes. Anyway, I don't remember Adam and Eve being "priests". What theology is this? And then, the video goes on to say God's promise about a descendant (a Jewish messiah? Jesus?) will come to defeat the evil deceiver (the serpent? Satan?) and restore humanity as royal priests (what is the deal with priests???); and that he will be both a priest and a sacrifice (yep, this refers to Jesus). I have a hunch that this is some kind of Christian interpretation, but I can't really pinpoint what that is. What is this theology?!? Yrotarobal (talk) 22:19, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

It will be a form of American Evangelicalism (i.e. someone's personal interpretation), likely with elements of Millennialism, espoused by the Project's co-founder Prof. Tim Mackie, which is explicated here. (I haven't read it, being a non-literalist Wiccan – good luck!) {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.41.216 (talk) 23:08, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

What is a non-literalist Wiccan? Are non-literalist Wiccans allowed to read non-Wiccan literature like the Bible or Tanakh or Quran? Yrotarobal (talk) 00:24, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

It means I take the concepts of the Wiccan 'deities' to be useful metaphors, helpful in shaping my mental approach to the World, rather than being literally existing entities.

Wicca has no controlling authorities or prescribed texts, so no-one can "allow" or "disallow" me anything. The central 'Wiccan Rede' (= advice) is "An it harm none, do what thou wilt" (in modern English, "So long as it doesn't harm anyone (including yourself), do what you will", with "will" having a triple meaning I won't expand here).

I do read other paths' texts, taking from them anything I find useful (Wicca is consciously a modern syncretism), and I have actively studied for over 50 years their origins and the historical (or not) facts underlying them, particularly the Judeo-Christian-Islamic ones, because of their historical and cultural importance, and because I am fascinated by history. However, we digress from the OP's query. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.41.216 (talk) 14:25, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

Mission statements are often generic. "lead to Jesus" is AFAIK a generic Christian phrase meaning finding salvation. Aaron Liu (talk) 01:20, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

What's the meaning of "finding salvation"? (In encyclopaedic language for non-Christians please.) HiLo48 (talk) 02:14, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

You could oversimplify it to "saving your soul".Template:Pb Aaron Liu (talk) 02:22, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

I don't have a soul. The first paragraph of that linked article is chock full of more insider Christian jargon - sin, separation from God, justification entailed by this salvation, etc. HiLo48 (talk) 02:32, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

Unless you're a robot, you have a soul. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:34, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

Citation needed. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 12:21, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

By definition. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:25, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

What does the definition refer to? Point a soul out to me. Describe it mathematically. How can we know that a robot does not have one? --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 14:21, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

If you have self-awareness, then you have a soul. The essence of your being. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:48, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

No, if I have self-awareness I have self-awareness. For it to be a soul, that self-awareness would need to persist after the death of the body. What is your proof of that? --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:04, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

Oh, you mean my smell, or "mystic aura".  Card Zero  (talk) 15:28, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

Pretty sure ChatGPT hasn't got one yet, but you never know... (also has legal immunity, which is even more useful). Martinevans123 (talk) 14:29, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

Note: not just robots... Martinevans123 (talk) 12:54, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

Can you prove that robots don't have souls? Iapetus (talk) 11:44, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

This religion believes you have a soul. I don't see how that's jargon; those are indeed Christian concepts but they are written out on plain layman's text. Aaron Liu (talk) 20:31, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

In Chinese, there is a related concept: 魂. That may be used to refer to the general concept of 'soul' and 'spirit'. Yrotarobal (talk) 21:57, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

The concept is part of Christian doctrine. If you want to understand the meaning of "finding salvation", you need to accept the meaning as understood in that context. In a nutshell, Christians believe in eternal life. You, like everyone else, will eventually end up either in hell or in heaven. In the Last Judgement, Jesus Christ will make the decision which of the two it will be. Because of the original sin, every human (except perhaps for Maria and a few more lucky ones) is by default destined to hell, thought to be an undesirable fate, even for just a moment but especially as this will last forever. But there is a way out. Through his death, Jesus has atoned for the original sin weighing down on everyone; by following Him, you can hope to find salvation, meaning, be saved from the certain prospect of hell and instead be allowed to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.  ​‑‑Lambiam 06:56, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

That entire paragraph is full of Christian beliefs written as facts. I find that very unhelpful, and it's obviously not encyclopedic. HiLo48 (talk) 09:57, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

Seems to me like a reading comprehension problem. At no point did Lambian imply that the beliefs he was describing were objectively true. Zacwill (talk) 10:20, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

I suspect that "[t]hat entire paragraph" is intended to refer to the (one-paragraph) lead section of Salvation in Christianity. If so, the claim that this paragraph is full of Christian beliefs "written as facts" is mistaken. The factual statements contained in this lead section are encyclopedic statements about beliefs, not essentially different in nature from a factual, encyclopedic statement like "Aristotle believed that four classical elements make up everything in the terrestrial spheres: earth, air, fire and water."  ​‑‑Lambiam 12:07, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

Lambiam, you mentioned that Christians believe in eternal life. However, everything you wrote after that was stated as facts. There is no explicit or implicit connection to the Christian belief sentence to indicate that these are beliefs instead of facts.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 14:22, 29 June 2025 (UTC)

To me the rest of the paragraph just sounds like explaining "eternal life". Aaron Liu (talk) 14:52, 29 June 2025 (UTC)

Read it again. It seems rather more of an attempt to scare someone into converting, than to simply explain Christian beliefs. User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 18:19, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

Maybe it is the personal expression of Christian beliefs (maybe specifically Calvinist beliefs?). But I am not an expert of Christian theology. Not at all. My brain on Christian theology is like a mixed soup. But I detect original sin. That's a buzz word. And I also detect predestination? I am more interested in checking out specific religious beliefs and sourcing them. Yrotarobal (talk) 23:59, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

I have read this four times already. What in that paragraph doesn't talk about eternal life? Where's the scare? And this is all clearly within the context of explaining salvation in christianity. Aaron Liu (talk) 03:03, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

I think some people only read this portion: You, like everyone else, will eventually end up either in hell or in heaven. And if a person is raised in a Buddhist- or Christian-influenced cultural environment, they certainly don't want to be in hell. They are afraid of hell. And they can go completely Jane Eyre and make a wise-crack statement that they would rather live long and not die so they don't have to be in hell, even though a person is supposed to say "be a good person" so the person does not have to suffer in hell. That's the scare. And honestly, the scare comes from the fact that some people may be raised in a Buddhist- or Christian-influenced cultural environment, and these 2 religions have a worldwide presence. That's how a fear of hell and a desire for heaven become universal. We just can't agree on what exactly hell is and what exactly heaven is, though. You may believe that Hell Is the Absence of God (literary piece). People in the anglosphere may be particularly sensitive to the word hell and may use hell as part of a curse like "Go to hell!" And the TV show Hell's Kitchen (American TV series) is a show of a bunch of restaurant workers getting yelled at to death by the big boss. The title combines the concepts pit full of literal fire and a place of torture to describe the kitchen that the contestants will be working in. Yrotarobal (talk) 11:27, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

Yes, the Bible itself is full of Christian beliefs written as facts, isn't it. It wasn't written as an encyclopedia by a global community of online volunteer editors. Never mind. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:30, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

Let's break this down.

The concept is part of Christian doctrine. Topic sentence If you want to understand the meaning of "finding salvation", you need to accept the meaning as understood in that context. In a nutshell, Christians believe in eternal life. Statement of Christian belief You, like everyone else, will eventually end up either in hell or in heaven. Christian belief expressed in a personal way In the Last Judgement, Jesus Christ will make the decision which of the two it will be. Christian eschatological belief Because of the original sin, every human (except perhaps for Maria and a few more lucky ones) is by default destined to hell, thought to be an undesirable fate, even for just a moment but especially as this will last forever. But there is a way out. Solution to the problem of humanity Through his death, Jesus has atoned for the original sin weighing down on everyone; by following Him, you can hope to find salvation, meaning, be saved from the certain prospect of hell and instead be allowed to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. saved by grace through faith in Jesus

We may want to do a comparative religion analysis as well.

Buddhism in a nutshell: there is suffering in the world > the root of suffering is desire > do not desire anything > be like the Buddha!!!

When people become 出家人, they leave the home and pursue a Buddhist temple / monastery / 寺庙 and live there with other monastics, separated by gender. Killing causes suffering, so no killing and eating of meat. Sex is linked to sexual desire, and thus it should be abstained. But ordinary lay people may have a statue of Buddha at home to pay respects to.

In both Christianity and Buddhism, there is a problem of humanity, and both Christianity and Buddhism pose their own solution to the problem of humanity. That is all. No statement of objective facts or scientific facts. It has to do with human existence, why we exist as humans, what we should do in this world, what we live for and so on. Do you have to follow the religion? No. You can find your own way, your own solution, to deal with the problems of humanity or maybe just you as you are part of humanity. Yrotarobal (talk) 12:21, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

Ah yes, Maria. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:54, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

Eh? Yrotarobal (talk) 11:14, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

• Wikipedia isn’t the right venue to argue whether Christian beliefs are correct (or not)… but it IS the right venue to explain what those beliefs ARE. You do not have to share those beliefs, but please respect those who do. Blueboar (talk) 15:52, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

  Hate the dogma, love the dogmatist. —Tamfang (talk) 17:51, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

  This is the original phrase. Yrotarobal (talk) 18:24, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

June 23

band deleted

The page URL, below, for a band called "No Vacation" existed until very recently, is still part of the band's description in YouTube music, and is shown in a Google search right-hand results—yet the deletion log makes it seem it went away in 2019. How can one get the page restored?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Vacation Gkbratch (talk) 02:41, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

You could try asking the admins who deleted it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:36, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

There were two versions. I can't tell if they were related. The later one, deleted from Draft:No Vacation, can be retrieved by following the process at WP:REFUND/G13. The admin who deleted the first version appears to be no longer active, but any admin can deposit a copy in your user space. (There is a process for requesting undeletion, but in view of the complication that there were two versions, it is better to approach an admin directly. This admin writes on their user page: "On admin jobs, I specialize in undeleting.")

The lead section seems to have been, at some time:

"No Vacation are an American dream pop band from San Francisco, California, currently based out of Brooklyn, New York. Formed in 2015, the group currently consists of Sabrina Mai, Marisa Saunders, Nat Lee, Rob Mills, and Harrison Spencer. They are known for their nostalgic, surf-pop sound."

(Terms like "currently" should be avoided and be replaced by something like "Template:Asof".)  ​‑‑Lambiam 06:24, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

Before you request a refund, please check out WP:BAND (our notability guideline on bands). Given that two articles existed, and that both were deleted, I suspect that the band was not deemed notable enough to have an article on Wikipedia.

That said… things can change, and if more independent sources now cover this band, we can certainly reassess whether we should have an article about it. Blueboar (talk) 16:21, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

The first version was deleted because it did not contain a credible claim of significance, which is a ground for speedy deletion. The second version was draftified (instead of outright deleted) for a lack of sources, and was deleted from Draft space one year later because it was apparently abandoned. This may have been due to a lack of reliable sources, but it may also have been the result of a lack of experience/attention/time of the editors involved.  ​‑‑Lambiam 18:45, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

As an American band, shouldn't thst be "No Vacation is"? User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 18:13, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

June 24

In general, what compels non-state actors to surrender?

EDIT: Please let me clarify. Given the literature on the Middle East and twety-first century non-state actors, is there a consensus? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shushimnotrealstooge (talk • contribs) 13:29, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

The YouTube channel PERUN published a video today that addresses the weakening of Hamas and Hezbollah and the fall of Syria in Israel's successful bombing campaign. Considering the weakness of their largest ally, what price in morale, lives, and materiel would plausibly bring Hamas to surrender the Gaza Strip to Tel Aviv? Shushimnotrealstooge (talk) 03:32, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

@Shushimnotrealstooge This is a reference desk. As stated above, Template:Tq Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:25, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

They must have something to gain from surrender. In case of Gaza, there are no indications that this is the case. PiusImpavidus (talk) 08:31, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

It might stop the carnage. One should hope this would be viewed as a gain.  ​‑‑Lambiam 08:38, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

It might stop the carnage, or maybe not. PiusImpavidus (talk) 08:09, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

I don't know if there is sufficient knowledge about the motivation of current Hamas leadership to offer more than speculation, which is not something the reference desk should engage in. If religious motivation plays a major role, the price paid by not surrendering may not even be considered.  ​‑‑Lambiam 08:36, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

Moving away from the Hamas issue and focussing on the general question ("In general, what compels non-state actors to surrender?"), there seem to be two major factors: a) Does the leadership/a significant number of the persons involved believe that they can gain anything by continuing their actions? b) Does the leadership/a significant number of the persons value their own lives/quality of life more than their ideological believes? As for factor a), this could come about after a general cool down of the situation, gradual improvement of the situation, and a lack of support/interest in the general population, e.g. terrorist organizations in the west (IRA, Rote Armee-Fraktion, ...) dissolved/ended under those circumstances. In the cases mentioned, the end of the cold war was important here because it at the same time reduced ideological conflict and the support by allied powers. As for factor b), we don't know what Yevgeny Prigozhin was promised, but then, his ideological believes might have been not too hard to outweight by personal gains to begin with.91.221.58.28 (talk) 09:54, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

Note that the IRA ended their armed campaign without achieving their goals but didn't surrender per se, i.e. their leaders ended up in government rather than jail. ETA in the Spanish Basque country is more a case of straightforward military defeat. I don't have a good answer to the general question of when non-state groups decide to throw in the towel. Anna Cento Bull's Ending Terrorism in Italy is an interesting book about this process in the Italian context. But obviously the scale of the conflict in Gaza is a completely different order of magnitude. Prezbo (talk) 12:53, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

Thank you -- I will look into that. Shushimnotrealstooge (talk) 13:32, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

Edit--another book that just occurred to me: it's not about non-state actors, but you might also check out The End by Ian Kershaw, about why and how the Nazi regime kept fighting to the bitter end. He basically concludes (if I understood him correctly) that Hitler was unequivocally opposed to any negotiated settlement, as were the Allies, who demanded unconditional surrender. For Hitler personally there was really no way out other than suicide, which he eventually opted for but delayed as long as possible. In his Darwinian honor-based worldview the destruction of the German nation wasn't a concern, better for the nation to die fighting than surrender. And the Nazi regime was structured so that it was impossible for other actors near the top to depose Hitler (although they tried in the 20 July plot), as happened with Mussolini in Italy. Note that I'm NOT saying Hamas is like Nazi Germany, it's just an interesting case study about why people keep fighting when there's no chance of victory. But what you really needs is a survey of the literature extracting general lessons from many situations like this, and I haven't read one of those. Prezbo (talk) 13:59, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

Another data point is that the violent zionist terrorists such as irgun, whose political arm was herut which became Likud in Mandatory Palestine stopped being non-state actors when they formed a state. Fanccr (talk) 23:33, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

PS: It is important to understand that this, even if basically true, is no recipe for peace, because it is still a political decision how to bring about the conditions. Looking at my factors a) & b), they both would legitimate two very contrary courses of action: Either kill every Hamas leader and bomb Iran back to the stone age, thereby reducing external support and making life as a Hamas activist as dangerous as possible; or retreating from Gaza and offering either money or power to the persons in leading functions. PLO basically ended their fight when they thought there was nothing more to gain from it than they could gain by negotiating (factor a) and were offered to trade a life in underground for politicall power and personal wealth (factor b).91.221.58.28 (talk) 10:01, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

There is also the element of “war weariness”. If a conflict goes on long enough - with no real result other than death - the portion of the populace that once supported the non-state faction may decide that all the killing just isn’t worth it anymore. The faction becomes more and more marginalized until they no longer have the resources to fight. Blueboar (talk) 13:22, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

You haven't touched on genocide. The Jews in the Warsaw ghetto fought because they knew what would happen. Christians in Japan were defeated by siege tactics and once in control the Japanese ruling power wiped them out, killing all 37,800 of them on 15 April 1638. 2A02:6B67:D985:CA00:6B41:D192:AA80:2F56 (talk) 17:26, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

In the case of Hamas, I don't think their grip on power depends on popular support. Since June 2007, when Hamas ousted Fatah from the Gaza Strip and took over power, there have been no elections in Gaza. We have no idea of the level of support.  ​‑‑Lambiam 14:13, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

There has been polling in Gaza since 2007, and even since the start of the current war: Gaza_war#Occupied_Palestinian_territories Prezbo (talk) 16:20, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

These polls do not tell us how Hamas would have fared in an election against opposition parties, if opposition had been allowed.  ​‑‑Lambiam 02:32, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

Everyone against the Houthi?

File:Yemeni Civil War.svg

All against green?

Is it accurate to say that all other factions in the Yemeni civil war are antagonistic to the Houthi, no matter what's their relation between one another? Can the Houthi be considered the main enemy for all other factions? --KnightMove (talk) 12:37, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

Preface to Les Misérables is available?

Can somebody point me to some source where the abandoned lengthy preface to Hugo's Les Misérables can be read? 49.47.196.246 (talk) 19:50, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

I don't know what you're talking about. There is a lengthy preface from Hugo, but AFAIK it can be found in nearly every edition and is by no means abandoned. Aaron Liu (talk) 20:34, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

This article is about the Preface which did not appear with editions published during Hugo's life. DuncanHill (talk) 00:08, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

Not so. I think it is not considered to be integral to the novel.The original version can be seen here. I am looking for an English translation. 49.47.198.67 (talk) 04:16, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

The article linked by DuncanHill also contains a translation of part of the preface, but not all of it. --Viennese Waltz 06:10, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

What are the Christianities descended directly from the apostles?

In a ReligionForBreakfast YouTube video titled Coptic Christianity Explained, published on Jun 24, 2025, the presenter talks about Coptic Christianity, claiming to be descended from Matthew?!? The Roman Church claims to be descended from Peter, and there seems to be a discovery of Peter's body right below the altar at St. Peter's Basilica. Apostle Thomas went to India, apparently, and founded the St. Thomas Christians there. What about the other apostles? Yrotarobal (talk) 21:18, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

For an overview, see Template:Section link.  ​‑‑Lambiam 14:57, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

I see some individuals founding multiple churches. How did they do this? Did one apostle found a church, move onto a different place, then found another church, then pretty soon 2 or more places are tied to that specific apostle, and that specific apostle becomes the Big Boss for the specific communities? Yrotarobal (talk) 17:23, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

In the very early years, there were no “big bosses”. It’s more that they were the first to preach the gospel in a particular area, and because they had known Jesus personally, they were revered.

The Appostles felt inspired to travel and talk about Jesus. They left small communities of converts behind wherever they went. Some traveled all their lives. Others eventually settled down, and became associated with one particular community (example, Peter in Rome or James in Jerusalem). Blueboar (talk) 20:00, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

I wonder if anyone has done an analysis of all the ancient churches founded by the apostles of Jesus and has compared the church traditions. Maybe by comparing all these ancient churches, we can make a guess at what Jesus actually preached and what Jesus and close followers practiced. Yrotarobal (talk) 20:17, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

This is certainly the subject of academic study by (real) biblical scholars; to do so it is generally necessary to have a good grasp of the original languages (since translations almost invariably introduce unconscious or deliberate biases and novel/invalid interpretations), of the historical cultural milieux involved, and of how the earliest versions of biblical and relevant extra-biblical texts can be identified and/or recreated free of later interpolations (which are many).

This is personal advice with which others will no doubt disagree, but the three scholars I find to be most knowlegeable and objective are Professor James Tabor, Professor Bart D. Ehrman, and Doctor John C. Hamer. They can all be found on YouTube, and often discuss these matters with other reputable scholars in these subject areas. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.41.216 (talk) 16:21, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

I think people of other backgrounds may be more in touch with the original languages. Jews interact with ancient Hebrew/biblical Hebrew with modern Hebrew pronunciation. Greek Christians can probably compare the biblical Greek with modern Greek. Muslims may do a little quranic study, and they may use a little app that has the original Arabic and vernacular-language translation. When Chinese people study the old classics, the classical texts would have a modern Chinese translation and an interpretation. Most of these peoples seem to be intimate to the original language because they are exposed to the original language and modern language at the same time. It is just the presentation of writing. And then there are Christians. The Bible was written in Hebrew, Koine Greek and Aramaic; for the Latin church, it was translated to Latin, but Latin fell out of favor and Western Christians started using ONLY the vernacular languages. The Protestant spirit of reading the Bible for oneself must have spread onto the Roman Catholics, and now even Roman Catholic lay people read the Bible for themselves in the vernacular language instead of relying on dedicated professionals who may understand the original language(s) to interpret scripture. Yrotarobal (talk) 17:19, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

What they founded was called, in the Koine language of the day, an ἐκκλησία (ekklēsía), which now is usually translated as "church", but at the time just meant a "gathering", in this case of followers of Christ. Some of these groups withered, some managed to hang on or even blossomed. Continuity from a first-century original gathering allegedly founded by an apostle to some present-day Church is based on oral tradition and not an established historical facts.  ​‑‑Lambiam 20:55, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

Historical facts are based on written history. Anything before history would be pre-history. Oral tradition is transmitted orally. But so is folklore. Beowulf, Tang Sanzang Aboriginal Australian folklore that contain meteors. There may be some element of truth and some embellishments. The ancient churches seem to maintain Holy Tradition, of which Holy Scripture is a part; and they were likely formed at a time when oral transmission was prominent in society. But because it is not written down, it is difficult to prove; but I guess you can say the same thing for just about any kind of folklore around the world. Folklore is not historical fact; they are based on oral transmission and a part of the human experience. Perhaps, anthropologists would value folklore much more than historians who may only value the written record and treat the written record as the only thing that can be valid. Yrotarobal (talk) 22:08, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

I think historians also value archaeological evidence, but this of course has to be interpreted, and interpretations depend on pre-existing ideas and may change in the light of new evidence. Written records are at least definitely what someone chose to express, although they may not correspond to objective fact, and require an understanding of their language that might be quite imperfect, especially if it is 'dead'. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.192.251.148 (talk) 17:38, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

I think both archaeological evidence and written records are based on what the human eyes can see, what can be observed directly with the senses. And it is assumed that objective fact is based on the senses. So, if a blind person cannot see color, does that mean that color does not exist? Color exists because it is what the seeing person perceives, and the seeing person tells the information to the blind person that colors exist. The perception of colors can also be a bit distorted too. That reminds me of John Dalton the color-blind chemist or Beethoven the stone-deaf musician. I am going to say that objective is just something that is widely agreed upon, and fact is something that is widely agreed upon, with scientific/empirical evidence meaning something that is based on making null hypotheses and alternative hypotheses and making everything a logical problem. But then, I think one will wander into non-scientific category, like the humanities or the arts, where scientific logic-based proofs may be amusing, but irrelevant. I think evidence in the humanities and the arts are based on human experience and perception. Like perceiving a certain main character is gay/lesbian. Or perceiving the tee-pee behavior of someone's house as death in the family because white color is associated with death in the culture, then assigned to a completely different culture. It is not empirical evidence. It is human experience and perception evidence, which may just be a product of the brain activity. Yrotarobal (talk) 18:15, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

Not clear what you're saying, but it sounds like old-fashioned post-modernist relativism that denies an external world. All signs are that objective reality exists, but our persistent attempts to get closer to it must be formed only from what we can agree on, so it's an unended quest. When the objective reality in question is the reality of the past minds of long dead people this is particularly sketchy.  Card Zero  (talk) 15:07, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

I think that the whole conversation has gone on a tangent, and now it makes no sense whatsoever.

To get back on track: the original person said, based on oral tradition and not an established historical facts. Another person mentioned archaeological evidence and written records, which may not match up to objective fact.

I am reminded of a personal anecdote of mine. Through my father's side and mother's side of the family tree, I am told stories of my parents' generation and my grandparents' generation and my parents' grandparents' generation. My mother's maternal grandfather came from a poor family. Somehow, a landlord gave him the opportunity to become a 陪读 (similar to a "study buddy" in an anglophone context). Basically, he became a study buddy for the landlord's son and essentially learned how to read and write that way, tutored the landlord's son, and then tutored his own siblings how to read and write. He got himself and his brothers out of the rural village, and they studied and practiced medicine. Then, he married a woman who was the daughter of a landlord, and together they had 5 children; the second-born child gave birth to my mother, who gave birth to me. I suppose I can call it "family lore" because it is transmitted orally. My immediate family (mom, dad, me) doesn't have the pictures, but our extended relatives in China do have pictures. They probably have knowledge of which school the ancestor(s) went to, and if we want to find out, we may have to contact the school (in Chinese, of course) and look for any records of someone's graduation. My extended relatives know where my paternal and maternal ancestors' graves are located (paternal grandma is still alive), and visiting the graves (扫墓) feels like I'm visiting my ancestral shrines. I also have a faint memory of my toddler self being in my maternal grandmother's apartment, and when I returned back to it in 2004, the apartment felt so familiar. That apartment building was later demolished, because the whole country was under construction. I know that my mother's little brother has actually visited his maternal grandfather's grave because he was worried sick about his daughter's academic performance and future career, so when his daughter eventually got accepted into a master's program and graduated out of it and got married, it was likely seen as an ancestral blessing. I am pretty sure that there are historical records somewhere in China. Maybe our extended relatives are keeping them or the local governments or the academic institutions. But I also think that the thing that binds all together is the family lore; and my family lore may just be a tiny piece of the national lore of the Chinese people, tracing back to antiquity and prehistory with little historical records and a whole lot of mythological origins.

I am just saying that oral tradition and historical documents work side by side. They complement each other. The historical documents add to the validity. The oral tradition binds everything together into a story that gives meaning to the people. Where do we come from? Who are we? Where do we go from here? Why do we do these rituals? What do we value? Yrotarobal (talk) 19:34, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

How can we eat? Why do we eat? Where shall we have lunch? You make a very reasonable point.  Card Zero  (talk) 23:26, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

I was actually thinking about Where Do We Come From? What Are We? Where Are We Going?, and I first saw that famous painting in a university astronomy class (elective) which began with Isaac Newton's inquiry of the age of the universe and the biblical cosmology; and that class mostly discussed modern scientific cosmology, beginning with The Big Bang and ending with The Big Freeze, though to be fair, there are other scientific theories and hypotheses, like parallel universes or a cyclical universe, but I suppose Occam's Razor plays a big role, and the fact that westerners like to think linearly. Other scientific theories may require a bigger leap of faith, especially for westerners, and once you get to Hindu cosmology, you are walking in religious-cultural territory. Yrotarobal (talk) 10:44, 29 June 2025 (UTC)

There was a Chinese-Latina girl on Xiaohongshu, who was clearly mixed-race. By appearance, she seemed to have a bit of everything. Her skin color was light brown which might suggest admixture from lighter-skin people and her fuzzy hair would suggest admixture from African populations. In her family lore, she talked about how her long-ago ancestor came to the Caribbean(?) and started a new lineage. That man's old family in China was separated forever. This is just to say that every family has a family lore.

If I settle here in North America, then my own descendants may be mixed-race as well, which may come with other family lores and ancestral origins. A descendant of mine may think about the family lore and try to find historical evidence in China (of course, by understanding Chinese), or the descendant may go sola scriptura in a way and reject the family lore for some reason because the descendant's own interpretation is better than the traditional account, or the descendent may find both historical evidence and family lore aren't convincing enough and opt out of everything entirely. Anything can happen. Yrotarobal (talk) 11:14, 29 June 2025 (UTC)

"km war"

Any idea what "the km war" might refer to in the context of Germany in World War I? It's mentioned in the article Pacifism in Germany (specifically this section), and I've put a Template:Tl tag next to it. Perhaps it's just referring to World War I or something, but I don't understand it, and someone else has asked about it too, so I thought I'd bring it here. 🌳 Balsam Cottonwood (talk) ✝ 23:35, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

Template:Re It looks like a typo, introduced in this edit. I shall remove it. DuncanHill (talk) 23:50, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

Okay, thanks! 🌳 Balsam Cottonwood (talk) ✝ 23:52, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

June 26

Where can I find commentary on the New York State Constitution of 1846 ?

Hello; I hate to say this, but in my teens, I watched a John Oliver segment claiming that elected judges tended to campaign as tough on crime, and I have never voted for a state Supreme Court Justice. I now know that in my state, New York, governors used to appoint justices who would not challenge them and that the right of New Yorkers to elect justices was a hard-fought one. Off the top of your head, do you know any law review articles I can read for more context? Shushimnotrealstooge (talk) 13:38, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

It is not a law review article and may be more than you want, but there is a detailed discussion in a 2023 doctoral dissertation on The changing role of the judiciary in antebellum New York State. There is a law review article that may be more what you are looking for, George Bundy Smith, Choosing Judges for a State's Highest Court, 48 Syracuse L. Rev. 1493 (1998); I do not immediately see it available for free online, but it can be purchased from HeinOnline and is probably also available from other sources. Incidentally, the highest court in New York is the New York Court of Appeals (established pursuant to the 1846 constitution), and it has judges, not justices. The New York Supreme Court is a trial level court that has justices. John M Baker (talk) 23:04, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

What was the make and model of rifle used in the 1977 Klamath Falls nightclub shooting?

What was the make and model of the rifle used in the 1977 Klamath Falls nightclub shooting? I've only been able to find it referenced as a .223 semi-automatic rifle. Presumably it was a mini-14 or ar-15 pattern though it could also be others. I have been able to find the docket number of the case, 790832929 in county Klamath, defendant Henry, Dewitt C court date 12/19/1979, in the Multnomah County Circuit Court. Fanccr (talk) 13:51, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

It is possible that the make and model was never recorded. In those days the caliber was considered much more important than the make or model. Blueboar (talk) 19:31, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

Presumably in the court or police documents there will be note of the model gun used... Fanccr (talk) 20:17, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

The Curse of the AR-15 says that it was one of those. Alansplodge (talk) 21:07, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

A footnote at our Crandon shooting#Notes article says:

Template:Xt

Alansplodge (talk) 21:49, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

Thanks! Fanccr (talk) 13:36, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

Who were the three people killed by Mossad in Switzerland on Jan. 12 1974?

In the article Mossad assassinations following the Munich massacre it mentions that on Jan 12th '74 three people were murdered by Mossad in Switzerland. Could someone try to find Swiss sources, or any newspaper articles or anything about it? There is, for instance, another wikipedia article on mass shootings in Switzerland which mentions a mass shooting of 2 on Jan second, but it seems unrelated. Fanccr (talk) 14:04, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

The source for that information is given as "Hunter, Thomas B. – Wrath of God: The Israeli Response to the 1972 Munich Olympics Massacre", but there is no bibliographical information to say whether that source is a book, a newspaper article or something else. Googling that title together with Thomas B. Hunter brings nothing up, but I did find this, which appears to be a graduate thesis, but under the name of Alexander Calahan not Thomas Hunter. The thesis gives a bit more information about the incident, including that it took place in the town of Sargans, but further information is hard to come by. I searched an online archive of Swiss newspapers without success. --Viennese Waltz 14:50, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

Thanks! It kinda seems like there isn't much to support the claim. Knowing the town where it's claimed to have taken place is great. That should make it much easier to clear up. I was wondering if it took place in a Mosque or in a Christian Church. Just as a shot in the dark, I'd guess that it's more probable that there are Christian churches in Sargans. I'm a little more skeptical that there might have been a Mosque there in 1974. Fanccr (talk) 15:11, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

Thomas B. Hunter is this guy, "Thomas Byron Hunter". According to this his parents used the surname Werner. DuncanHill (talk) 17:56, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

The claim about Switzerland, and the enigmatic Hunter source, were added in this edit by User:Reenem in 2011. I shall ask them if they have any details about the source, as its only google traces are our article, mirrors, and discussion fora quoting us. DuncanHill (talk) 18:13, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

The Hunter paper is . fiveby(zero) 18:52, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

George Jonas in Vengeance puts it in a church in Glarus, Switzerland pp. 245-54, but states in a footnotes: Template:Tq and Template:Tq fiveby(zero) 16:51, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

"My sources told me not to check my sources" DuncanHill (talk) 18:22, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

"Verifiability not truth" has a longer provenance that we thought  :) —Fortuna, imperatrix 11:32, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

Template:Quote

and more on Juval Aviv from Snopes and "Secret Agent Schmuck" from Village Voice. fiveby(zero) 19:46, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

This thesis about Gabriel Allon describes Glarus (like Lillehamer) as a "fiasco", and says the victims were three security guards. In one of the Gabriel Allon books the character says "I also know what happened in Switzerland" to a character clearing up the mess made by Michael Harari. DuncanHill (talk) 19:04, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

"I speak for sixty thousand dead"

At the Paris Peace Conference the Australian prime minister Billy Hughes clashed with the American president Woodrow Wilson over the fate of German New Guinea. Wilson asked Hughes if he meant to defy the whole civilised world, "That’s about the size of it Mr President" Hughes replied. Wilson then reminded him that he spoke for only a few million Australians. Hughes answered "I speak for sixty thousand dead. How many do you speak for?" I am looking for good, early sources for the exchange. Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 23:40, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

You may be able to find something in Trove, an Australian newspaper archive.[2]-Gadfium (talk) 23:45, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

Template:Smalldiv

Lloyd George mentions the exchange in his memoir of the conference, but does not include the "sixty thousand dead" remark. Zacwill (talk) 13:22, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

The earliest Google could find me was from Samoanische Zeitung of 1 September 1922:

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There were almost as many results for the "speak for" variant, but none so early.

Alansplodge (talk) 21:26, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

Given American politics at the time… I am sure quite a lot of dead people voted for Wilson. Blueboar (talk) 21:34, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

For reference, the numbers of fatal casualties suffered by the two countries in the First World War were, according to one source: USA 116,516, Australia 61,966.

Considered as inter–national ratios:

100,000,000:5,000,000 = 20:1,

116,516:61,966 = approx 2:1.

Considered as proportions of populations:

116,516/100,000,000 = 1 in 858,

61,966/5,000,000 = 1 in 81.

The point Hughes was making would have been fairly obvious to everyone. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.192.251.148 (talk) 17:00, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

Per World War I casualties. USA combat deaths + MIA 53,402, Australia combat deaths + MIA 61,527. DuncanHill (talk) 17:09, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

Interesting: from this table, essentially all Australia's Total Military Deaths were Combat Deaths or Missing in Action, whereas the USA's TMDs (roughly the figure I used) were more than twice its CD+MiA. This would have made Hughes' rejoinder even more pointed. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.192.251.148 (talk) 19:52, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

June 27

Help finding US census data page

So I found https://data.census.gov/table?t=-4000A&g=160XX00US0684550, which shows the percentage of different Asian groups in the city of Westminster, California at the 2020 census. I also have https://data.census.gov/table/DECENNIALPL2020.P1?g=160XX00US0684550, which shows the breakdown into larger groups (White, Black, Native American, Asian, Pacific Islander, Other). How do I find a page that will show the complete breakdown into specific ethnic groups for a location? FakeHouses (talk) 19:46, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean by "specific ethnic groups". These six are the only racial categories on the census: Race and ethnicity in the United States census. There is no data from the US Census that breaks it down further. Aaron Liu (talk) 13:21, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

I looked at the questionnaire. There's also question 8 about Hispanic origins, and in question 9 you're asked to "print origins" after checking boxes, to specify whether you belong for instance to the Nome Eskimo Community. They collected all that extra specific written data.  Card Zero  (talk) 14:53, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

Hispanic is a different dimension considered completely separate from race here (it can even be combined with any of the races), but you're right that I was mistaken. The detailed race breakdowns are actually all in the first link FakeHouses found and mentioned; you just have to filter for all races: https://data.census.gov/table?t=-00&g=160XX00US0684550&d=DEC+Detailed+Demographic+and+Housing+Characteristics+File+A Aaron Liu (talk) 15:13, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

@Aaron Liu Thank you; I didn't know how to find that. Do you know if it's possible to have them appear on separate rows instead of separate columns? FakeHouses (talk) 19:41, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

i didn't know either lol. That's what the "Transpose" button seems to do; no idea why columns are the default either. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:01, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

June 28

Prince Arthur's Death

I was reading today that in relation to King John (play), nobody knows the location of the scenes surrounding prince Arthur's death. And I was wondering why history does not help. Was there a real prince Arthur? If so do we know where and how he died? Or was his death so different from Shakespeare's depiction that it gives no clue to the fictional setting? AndyJones (talk) 13:10, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

• Yes, there was a real Prince Arthur. And, no, history does not record the details of how he died. See: Arthur I, Duke of Brittany. Blueboar (talk) 13:42, 28 June 2025 (UTC)
  • Fascinating, thank you. Odd that Rouen Castle is not one of the places speculated as a location in my copy of King John, which only suggests places in England. AndyJones (talk) 14:01, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

    FWIW, in my non-scholarly and un-annotated copy of The Complete Works . . . .

    ACT IV Scene I opens in NORTHAMPTON. A Room in the Castle with the imprisoned Arthur;

    Scene II in The same. A Room of State in the Palace with King John and others;

    Scene III at The same. Before the Castle. Enter Arthur, on the Walls.

    Arthur. "The wall is high, and yet I will leap down:—

    (seven more lines)" [Leaps down.

    "Oh me! My uncle's spirit is in these stones:—

    Heaven take my soul, and England keep my bones" [Dies.

    Clearly, then, Shakespeare portrays Arthur dying at Northampton Castle. In his day probably he, and certainly most of his audience, would not have had access to as much historical data as we now do, and in any case he would not have hesitated to bend facts with dramatic licence to make the play work better.

[Edited to add] At the time of the actual events, the Angevin Empire was split over England and the Continent, with the latter being more important to its ruling Plantagenet dynasty. Naturally events relevant to this story occurred in both (and Arthur's death, most likely, in Normandy). By Shakespeare's time, 400 years later, the Continental holdings were mostly lost and his audience was focussed mainly on England, so compacting all the action to take place in England, and mostly in the same location, made dramatic sense.

{The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.192.251.148 (talk) 17:40, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

Not exactly a modern source, but The New Royal Readers (1884) p.252 says:

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The The Oxford and Cambridge Shakespeare, with notes (1881) p. vi says:

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It goes on to give the account from Holinshed's Chronicles, in Shakespeare's time considered to be a definitive history.

Alansplodge (talk) 11:13, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

June 30

Moab's patriarchs

(Courtesy link - Lot (biblical person) DuncanHill (talk) 21:50, 30 June 2025 (UTC))
Was Lot considered a patriarch by the Moabites themselves?Rich (talk) 02:28, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

I'm not finding any reference that Lot was considered a biblical patriarch at all. 196.50.199.218 (talk) 07:48, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

I didn't ask if he was a Biblical patriarch.Rich (talk) 09:55, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

As I understand it, the only written record of Lot is the Book of Genesis, the narrative of which is covered in our article, but the primary source is the Book of Genesis, chapters 11–14 & 19. Anything else would be conjecture. Alansplodge (talk) 11:24, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

Lot is a figure peculiar to the scriptures of the Abrahamic religions which developed from Yahwism, which was a derived variety of the ancient Canaanite religion.

Scholars consider the stories of Abraham to be a 'late literary construction' in writings (the Torah) composed around the time of the Persian restoration following the end of the Judahites' Babylonian captivity in the late 6th century BCE, long post-dating the emergence around the 12th century BCE of the Israelites and Judahites from the Caananite culture which included the Moabites.

Even if the compilers of the Torah had utilised existing Abrahamic folk myths that included the figure of Lot, it seems unlikely that the Moabites, not being Abrahamic, would have shared those particular myths. That said, we have only a limited amount of evidence about specifically Moabite religious beliefs and, as far as I can tell, virtually none at all about their folk myths. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.192.251.148 (talk) 19:31, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

See also Template:Section link, in particular regarding the parallels between the Upanishads and the Abraham legend.  ​‑‑Lambiam 21:05, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

The island on Lock Muick

Despite the claims of Wikipedia (and Google, which in its AI tosh says there isn't, presumably because it's read Wikipedia), there is an island on Loch Muick in Aberdeenshire. You can see it on Google here. The Scots Magazine for 1 July 1970 also mentions it, as a place where Sandy Campbell, the stalker at Glas-allt-Shiel (variously spelt) in Queen Victoria's time, grew potatoes. I would like to know a) what is the island's name, and b) anything else at all you can tell me about it. Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 21:47, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

The Ordnance Survey name book mentions the island in its entry for Loch Muick: "Towards the west end of [the loch], there is a small island, on which seagulls are always found." There is a picture of it here. No seagulls are in evidence, however. Zacwill (talk) 23:16, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

• This view of the loch was possibly taken from the north from just outside the cottage... almost identical view

Annoyingly, the Infobox entry of 'Islands 0' is referenced to a respectable source, which however contains only the same (evidently erroneous) entry, so could easily be a typo or blunder. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.192.251.148 (talk) 08:15, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

July 1

Identify Kuala Lumpur high-rises

Would someone be able to identify the cluster of three sinuous buildings in the foreground of skyscrapercity.com/attachments/274530710_1006930033566857_6495661088138170893_n-1-jpg.2831865/ please, as searching for it or prithipal pannu didn't yield anything useful?

Thanks, cmɢʟee⎆τaʟκ 12:40, 1 July 2025 (UTC)