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== River AfD ==

The notability of two rivers in Italy is being discussed at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Limentra di Sambuca]]. Your contribution is welcome. [[User:Markussep|Markussep]] <sup>[[User talk:Markussep|Talk]]</sup> 07:22, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

== River Ock, Surrey ==

The map in the infobox for [[River Ock, Surrey]] incorrectly shows the location of the [[River Ock]] in the Vale of White Horse. The co-ordinates in the article seem to be correct, so I have no idea why it is displaying incorrectly. Someone who knows how to fix this, please will you? Thankyou. [[User:Motacilla|Motacilla]] ([[User talk:Motacilla|talk]]) 09:28, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

:No map was defined in the original infobox, I've done a bodge to, at least, get it in the right place. [[User:Murgatroyd49|Murgatroyd49]] ([[User talk:Murgatroyd49|talk]]) 09:55, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

== River related discussion ==
[[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Rivers/Waterfalls_task_force#Infobox for the Falls of Clyde?|Here]] you can find a discussion about an article on a waterfall. Thanks in advance for your contributions, --[[User:Pampuco|Pampuco]] ([[User talk:Pampuco|talk]]) 18:44, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

== Requested move at [[Talk:Tana (Norway)#Requested move 28 December 2024]] ==
[[File:Information.svg|30px|left]] There is a requested move discussion at [[Talk:Tana (Norway)#Requested move 28 December 2024]] that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. [[User talk:Reading Beans|<span style="color:#333">'''Reading Beans, Duke of Rivia'''</span>]] 20:44, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

== Assistance - [[Palani Falls]] ==

In May 2024, I created an article on a surge waterfall located in Himachal Pradesh, [[Palani Falls]]. The article has remained unreviewed ever since, primarily due to a lack of ''sufficient'' reliable sources. 

While an editor, [[User:Voorts]], pointed out that the article clearly lacked ''enough'' reliable sources and questioned its notability, he ''did not rule out'' the possibility that the subject might merit an article. He referred me to [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Rivers]] for assistance and help. 

While I admit some of the sources in the article are questionable, I believe the subject does meet Wikipedia's notability guideline for geographical features. Other published articles in the same or similar category would be [[Ninai Falls]], [[Rehala Falls]], [[Hirni Falls]] or [[Purwa Falls]], to name a few.  

In the context of Indian geography, and more specifically the geography and ecology of Himachal Pradesh, I hold that the topic of the article, [[Palani Falls]], is relevant and notable. I request help with referencing on the article. This may be a stretch, but I would also appreciate co-authors, if any. 

If this isn't the right place to ask, do give me a heads-up. Regards, <span style="background-color: black; padding: 2px 3px 1px 3px;">[[User:Dissoxciate|<span style="color: greenyellow">'''Dissoxciate'''</span>]] [[User talk:Dissoxciate|<span style="color: turquoise">(talk)</span>]]</span> 18:26, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

== Question on consistency in naming ==

I've done a little editing to a couple articles on streams in Erie County, Pennsylvania and I noticed that the disambiguation among them is not exactly consistent. Some are disambiguated by what they are a tributary of while others are disambiguated by being in Pennsylvania. While it seems both follow the WikiProject naming convention, the inconsistency kinda bugs me. Would any moving be warranted? [[User:TornadoLGS|TornadoLGS]] ([[User talk:TornadoLGS|talk]]) 21:47, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

:Before changing a disambiguator from ''(tributary of )'' to ''(Pennsylvania)'', make sure the other is not also in Pennsylvania! [[User:Tamfang|—Tamfang]] ([[User talk:Tamfang|talk]]) 02:49, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
::I've not seen ''(tributary of )'' used precisely as the disambiguator. I've come to prefer the ''(Parent river tributary)'' formulation, but there are cases where the same name is used for several tributaries of same parent river, so some other disambiguation is needed. Also note that where the parent river is used by itself in parentheses, for example [[Beaver Run (County Line Branch)]], I think in a past discussion there was agreement that [[Beaver Run (County Line Branch tributary)]] is preferred, but of course there should be redirects in place either way. [[User:Bkonrad|older]] ≠ [[User talk:Bkonrad|wiser]] 12:54, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

== Good article reassessment for [[River Avon, Bristol]] ==
[[River Avon, Bristol]] has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the [[Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/River Avon, Bristol/1|reassessment page]]. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. [[User:Z1720|Z1720]] ([[User talk:Z1720|talk]]) 02:23, 4 February 2025 (UTC)

== Should we have separate creek and river categories? ==

Over the past few days, {{U|Volcanoguy}} has started to split river categories into rivers and creeks. For example:
*{{C|Rivers of Santa Barbara County, California}} → {{C|Creeks of Santa Barbara County, California}}
*{{C|Rivers of the Sierra Nevada (United States)}} → {{C|Creeks of the Sierra Nevada (United States)}}
*{{C|Rivers of Dunedin}} → {{C|Creeks of Dunedin}}
*{{C|Rivers of Mississippi}} → {{C|Creeks of Mississippi}}
I'd like to discuss whether editors think we should split these types of categories. 

A relevant guideline is the [[WP:CATDEF|defining characteristic criterion]]:
:{{tq|Defining characteristics of an article's topic are central to categorizing the article. A defining characteristic is one that [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] ''commonly'' and ''consistently'' refer to in describing the topic, such as the nationality of a person or the geographic location of a place.}}
Is the distinction between a creek and a river a defining characteristic? {{U|Volcanoguy}} appears to have used the fact that a stream was named "creek" to sort into the creek category. Do we wish to categorize based on the name of a stream?

There have been previous discussions that may be relevant. In 2016, editors decided to [[Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2016 July 11#Rivers|merge river and stream categories]]. That discussion considered whether "creek" was a term in a [[WP:ENGVAR|national variety of English]]. There was also [[Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2016 April 2#Creeks|a smaller discussion in 2016]] that decided to merge a few "creek" categories back into "river" categories.

If we decide the merge the "creek" categories, the question arises what should we merge back into? We could simply undo the split and merge back into the "rivers" category. {{U|Volcanoguy}} has suggested using "watercourses" as the name in the category, which was also suggested in the [[Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2016 July 11#Rivers|2016 merge discussion]]. I'm going to make two subsections below to discuss (a) whether we should keep the "creek" categories and (b) what to name the resulting merged categories.

<small>Pinging participants in the 2016 discussion: {{U|Agathoclea}}, {{U|Antepenultimate}}, {{U|AussieLegend}},  {{U|Aymatth2}}, {{U|Bermicourt}}, {{U|BU_Rob13}}, {{U|Carlossuarez46}}, {{U|Czar}}, {{U|Daniel Case}}, {{U|DanTD}}, {{U|DexDor}}, {{U|Dimadick}}, {{U|Es0884}}, {{U|Ezhiki}}, {{U|First Light}}, {{U|Gjs238}}, {{U|Jemmans}}, {{U|Herostratus}}, {{U|HyperGaruda}}, {{U|Jakec}}, {{U|Jc37}}, {{U|Jokulhlaup}}, {{U|Kerry Raymond}}, {{U|Lankiveil}}, {{U|Laurel Lodged}}, {{U|Lemongirl942}}, {{U|Le Deluge}}, {{U|Marcocapelle}}, {{U|Mark Hurd}}, {{U|Neutrality}}, {{U|Novarupta}}, {{U|Nyttend}}, {{U|Od Mishehu}}, {{U|Pampuco}}, {{U|PanchoS}}, {{U|Peterkingiron}}, {{U|PaulBetteridge}}, {{U|Presidentman}}, {{U|Rathfelder}}, {{U|Renata3}}, {{U|RevelationDirect}}, {{U|RioHondo}}, {{U|Stevietheman}}, {{U|Tevildo}}, {{U|TheCatalyst31}}, {{U|TimK MSI}}, {{U|Vandraedha}}, {{U|YBG}}</small>

— [[User:Hike395|hike395]] ([[User talk:Hike395|talk]]) 12:34, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

:Creek is mostly an American term.  I dont think it works in a wider context. [[User:Rathfelder|Rathfelder]] ([[User talk:Rathfelder|talk]]) 12:52, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

*'''Question''' Could we have a brief summary of the ''status quo'' (and the effect of the proposed changes) to assist with the discussion? A very quick look at the existing categories would suggest that all watercourses, of any size, are listed under "River" categories, and the proposal is to split off a subset of these into "Creek" categories, but this may be wrong. [[User:Tevildo|Tevildo]] ([[User talk:Tevildo|talk]]) 13:08, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

:{{U|Tevildo}} is correct. The state before Volcanoguy started to edit was that watercourses/streams of any size were listed under "River" categories. The proposal is to split those categories: if the watercourse/stream has the name "Creek" in it, it gets put into a "Creek" category. Otherwise it stays in the "River" category. ({{U|Volcanoguy}} to correct me if this is wrong). — [[User:Hike395|hike395]] ([[User talk:Hike395|talk]]) 16:22, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

===Shall we create creek categories?===
{{archive top
|status = [[WP:SNOW]] close
|result = A clear consensus against creek categories. Thanks to {{U|Volcanoguy}} who has already reverted his edits. — [[User:Hike395|hike395]] ([[User talk:Hike395|talk]]) 05:05, 6 March 2025 (UTC)
}}
[[File:Scioto River headwaters.jpg|thumb|right|250px|[[Scioto River]] near its source]]
[[File:McConnells Mill Bridge and Creek.jpg|thumb|right|[[Slippery Rock Creek]] midway through its course]]
Yes, although we should reserve the option of using "Bridges over Rivers" categories for both rivers and creeks. -------[[User:DanTD]] ([[User talk:DanTD|talk]])  12:45, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
:Evidently somebody didn't understand what I was saying. I thought it was fairly clear, but yes I do think there should be separate categories for rivers and creeks, and make more creek categories. But I also think the subcategory "Bridges over rivers in (Foo)" should apply to both, as well as streams, and other waterways when necessary. ---------[[User:DanTD]] ([[User talk:DanTD|talk]])  13:07, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
* '''No''', first because "creek" means something different in American English and in British English, and second because there is no objective cutoff when a creek starts to become a river or vice versa. [[User:Marcocapelle|Marcocapelle]] ([[User talk:Marcocapelle|talk]]) 13:19, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
* '''No'''. Agree with [[User:Marcocapelle|Marcocapelle]], they mean different things in Anerican and British English.[[User:Davidstewartharvey|Davidstewartharvey]] ([[User talk:Davidstewartharvey|talk]]) 13:32, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
* '''No'''. I came to this conclusion primarily because there is no definite dividing line, but then read the other !vites and realized that [[WP:ENGVAR]] is an even stronger reason. [[User:YBG|YBG]] ([[User talk:YBG|talk]]) 13:58, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
*:I just now [[special:diff/1278555366|restored]] my earlier [[special:diff/1278442299|edit]] which had been [[special:diff/1278445934|accidentally deleted]] by {{u| Donald Albury}}. [[User:YBG|YBG]] ([[User talk:YBG|talk]]) 04:48, 3 March 2025 (UTC)
*::Sorry! [[User talk:Donald Albury|Donald Albury]] 14:50, 3 March 2025 (UTC)
* '''No''' Even in American English, "creek" can mean both a freshwater stream and a saltwater inlet ([[Tidal creek]]) or passage between islands (see the creeks in [[Overseas Highway]]). There is no firm distinction between creek and river in the names of streams in the U.S. For instance, [[Econfina Creek]] has a greater flow than [[Econfina River]] (a blogger has opined that Econfina Creek is a river while Econfina River is a creek). - [[User talk:Donald Albury|Donald Albury]] 14:21, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
* '''No''' The terminology is inconsistent. [[User:Dimadick|Dimadick]] ([[User talk:Dimadick|talk]]) 14:47, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
* '''No''' Whether a watercourse has been identified as a river or a creek often depends upon its size in comparison to other watercourses in the vicinity rather than some uniform specification.  A river in an area of low annual precipitation may carry less water than a creek in an area of higher annual precipitation.  This discussion might be extended to separate categories for brooks in areas where that terminology is preferred over creeks, or gulches in arid terrain where flow occurs very rarely, or ditches which flow nearly continuously after being constructed to drain low-lying areas, or canals into which natural watercourses have been diverted for transportation. [[User:Thewellman|Thewellman]] ([[User talk:Thewellman|talk]]) 16:48, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
* No per others, and from a user perspective I can imagine plenty of situations where someone looking for "rivers" in a particular area covered by a category would be generally interested in watercourses. [[User:Chipmunkdavis|CMD]] ([[User talk:Chipmunkdavis|talk]]) 16:50, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

:'''No''' -- as far as I know there is no fundamental natural distinction, and it seems inconvenient, when looking for all the rivers in an area, to have separate categories for rivers and creeks. It also makes categorization more difficult. [[User:Mrfoogles|Mrfoogles]] ([[User talk:Mrfoogles|talk]]) 17:11, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
*'''No''' there's no objective cutoff, and we can't just use names as I detailed below. [[User:Herostratus|Herostratus]] ([[User talk:Herostratus|talk]]) 17:40, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
*'''No''' per Herostratus.  Consider the two images I've just placed at the top of this subsection, and ignore the names.  If one should be classified as a creek and the other as a river, which is which?  Obviously the top is the creek and the bottom is the river, but the names are opposite.  There's a significant degree of overlap between the two, since names aren't systematically applied in some grand structure, so the only unambiguous way to distinguish them is relying strictly on the name, and names aren't a good basis for categorisation across Wikipedia.  [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 19:33, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
* '''No''' , mainly because there isn't an universally accepted threshold of some objective parameter that separates rivers from creeks.--[[User:Pampuco|Pampuco]] ([[User talk:Pampuco|talk]]) 20:44, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
*:'''No''', there is no objective way to separate rivers from creeks. [[User:Kerry Raymond|Kerry]] ([[User talk:Kerry Raymond|talk]]) 21:36, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
*'''No''' because the choice of whether to call something a creek, a river, a burn, a stream, or whatever else is contingent on local history, on dialect, and on the relative size of other water features nearby; there is no standard and no objective distinction. Far easier just to class all such things together. —[[User:David Eppstein|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein|talk]]) 06:54, 3 March 2025 (UTC)
*:No - there is no consistency in use of word creek world wide hardly ever used in England- in North Island New Zealand English it tended to be used for tidal streams as per Australian and I then found different usage when I lived in South Island. I think volcanoguy's new category [[:Category:Creeks of Dunedin]] is prime for reversion and example of inapproriate categorisation. One of the creeks is a river and the other a stream by more common NZ naming . [[User:ChaseKiwi|ChaseKiwi]] ([[User talk:ChaseKiwi|talk]]) 08:59, 5 March 2025 (UTC)
*:*'''No'''. I think of a creek as a tidal inlet, possibly fed by a rivulet, as opposed to a stream, brook, beck, burn or billabong. Easiest to keep the status quo.
*:[[User:Aymatth2|Aymatth2]] ([[User talk:Aymatth2|talk]]) 15:58, 5 March 2025 (UTC)
{{Archive bottom}}
{{archive top
|status = No consensus
|result = There is no clear consensus for a new name of the category tree. The most acceptable name appears to be the {{lang|la|status quo}} "Rivers". — [[User:Hike395|hike395]] ([[User talk:Hike395|talk]]) 13:13, 14 March 2025 (UTC)
}}
===What shall we name the merged categories?===
If we decide to merge. — [[User:Hike395|hike395]] ([[User talk:Hike395|talk]]) 12:34, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
* Technically "watercourse" is correct, but "river" is used more often. [[User:Marcocapelle|Marcocapelle]] ([[User talk:Marcocapelle|talk]]) 13:23, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
* I would say we should use the ''Rivers and streams'', as the first article, [[Abadi Creek]], on the [[:Category:Creeks of Santa Barbara County, California]] says ''Abadi Creek is a stream'', so is recognised as a stream.[[User:Davidstewartharvey|Davidstewartharvey]] ([[User talk:Davidstewartharvey|talk]]) 13:36, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
*"Rivers and streams" would avoid the [[WP:ENGVAR]] and avoid trying to determin when a stream is big enough to be a river, or vice versa. - [[User:RevelationDirect|RevelationDirect]] ([[User talk:RevelationDirect|talk]]) 13:41, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
* Either '''rivers and streams''' or '''watercourses'''. [[User:YBG|YBG]] ([[User talk:YBG|talk]]) 13:45, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
* <s>"Rivers and streams" sounds best.</s> - [[User talk:Donald Albury|Donald Albury]] 14:23, 2 March 2025 (UTC) - Switching my preference to '''Rivers''' for simplicity. - [[User talk:Donald Albury|Donald Albury]] 14:59, 5 March 2025 (UTC) 
:'''Watercourses''', to be sufficiently general [[User:Mrfoogles|Mrfoogles]] ([[User talk:Mrfoogles|talk]]) 17:12, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
* I'll repeat my 2016 !vote for '''watercourses'''.  "Rivers and streams" has the problem that provoked this discussion, namely that given watercourse that isn't a river may be a "stream", a "creek", a "burn", a "beck", or indeed have a name that doesn't include any description ([[Roaring Meg]]).  "Watercourses" is the most generic term available. [[User:Tevildo|Tevildo]] ([[User talk:Tevildo|talk]]) 17:22, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

*:That being said, "Rivers and streams" is much better than plain "Rivers". [[User:Tevildo|Tevildo]] ([[User talk:Tevildo|talk]]) 17:35, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

:::Names don't much matter IMO. As I blathered about below, many similar things that we can group together have different names. "X Tower", "Y Building", "Z Centre" can all be grouped under "Skyscrapers". We just use our best common sense for stuff like that. ([[Norman's Woe]] is not grouped with [[Woe]]s but rather with islands since it is one, etc.) [[User:Herostratus|Herostratus]] ([[User talk:Herostratus|talk]]) 17:45, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

*'''Rivers and Streams'''. "Watercourses" is a bit less common and is a bit stiff (we are general publication not an academic one), and my guess is that at lease some ESL readers would not recognize it or know the precise definition quite as quickly. (Also, wouldn't "watercourses" include canals, aqueducts, wadis, large open storm sewers, or whatever?) [[User:Herostratus|Herostratus]] ([[User talk:Herostratus|talk]]) 17:48, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

*'''Watercourses'''. Yes, it ''is'' a bit technical, but the meaning is ''both'' broad and clearly delineated. Think "lakes and ponds" (the distinction between which even our [[pond]] article admits is not clear, much less anyone at [[WP:LAKES]] can agree on) versus "waterbodies". If we want to make the distinction that Herostratus inquires about above, we can say "natural watercourses". [[User:Daniel Case|Daniel Case]] ([[User talk:Daniel Case|talk]]) 18:51, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
::Yes, "natural watercourses" would be better than just "watercourses" I think (not changing my vote tho). That might include wadis, but that would actually be reasonable or we could just decide not to.) [[User:Herostratus|Herostratus]] ([[User talk:Herostratus|talk]]) 19:58, 5 March 2025 (UTC)
*'''Rivers''', per previous discussion.  It's more accessible than "watercourse" (anyone with any familiarity with English will understand it), and calling a small flow a "river" seems to be more common than calling a large flow a "stream" or "creek".  Backup suggestion is for "streams".  10+ years ago, when most of my Wikipedia writing was related to US geography, I heavily relied on the [[GNIS]] database, and they used "stream" to refer to everything from the Mississippi River to little things in someone's back yard.  (Maybe they still do, but I've not used their site in years.)  If they can do it, it's likely not a bad idea for us to do it.  Either one is better than "rivers and streams", both because the latter name is much longer and because readers can easily infer that it contains two separate kinds of objects that ought to be distinguished.  [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 19:39, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
*:That's US-centric and doesn't apply to other parts of the world. '''[[User:Volcanoguy|<i style="color: red;">Volcano</i>]][[User talk:Volcanoguy|<i style="color: black;">guy</i>]]''' 21:48, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
*::Well, my last few years of life in Australia have generally matched my experience in the US.  There are plenty of creeks around here — I'll likely cross [[Kananook Creek]] on my way to the beach this evening, and this weekend I'll go through [[Dixons Creek, Victoria|Dixons Creek]] — and of course we have rivers, e.g. the [[Yarra River|Yarra]] and the [[Murray River|Murray]].  [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 04:55, 4 March 2025 (UTC)
*'''Rivers''' is short and widely-understood for flowing water. Let's keep it short and simple. "Watercourse", while technically accurate, is not in everyday use. "Creeks" (but not "streams") is used in Australia but go to the UK and you find "streams" and "brooks" used rather than "creeks", so I think trying to standardise on a term for the smaller rivers isn't going to work. And, due to notability requirements, it is the bigger watercourses that are mostly going to have articles anyway. Even articles about things called creeks, e.g. [[Cooper Creek]] have a lede that says "is a river ..." [[User:Kerry Raymond|Kerry]] ([[User talk:Kerry Raymond|talk]]) 21:52, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
*:I put forward Rivers and Streams as we have Wikipedia articles on [[Rivers]] and [[Streams]]. Streams are both used in British and American English, while Australia does use the phrase stream [https://water.dpie.nsw.gov.au/about-us/learn-about-water/an-introduction-to-water/rivers-and-streams]. [[User:Davidstewartharvey|Davidstewartharvey]] ([[User talk:Davidstewartharvey|talk]]) 07:15, 3 March 2025 (UTC)
:: One example is hardly evidence! I searched the Queensland PLace Names database and there are over 1000 watercourses called "Something Creek" (the search is limited to the first 1000 results so there are presumably many more) but not a single one named as "Something Stream", which is no surprise as "stream" is not used in everyday speech in Australia (it will likely produce the same blank look as "watercourse", unless you are talking to a geographer). [[User:Kerry Raymond|Kerry]] ([[User talk:Kerry Raymond|talk]]) 09:58, 3 March 2025 (UTC)
:::They may not be called streams, as per the article they go by more than one name, but they are in Australian parlance, as per the wording on the visit Melbourne site [https://www.visitmelbourne.com/see-and-do/nature-and-wildlife/lakes-and-waterways].[[User:Davidstewartharvey|Davidstewartharvey]] ([[User talk:Davidstewartharvey|talk]]) 10:29, 3 March 2025 (UTC)
*Either '''Rivers and streams''' or '''Watercourses''', both are better than just Rivers. [[User:FromCzech|FromCzech]] ([[User talk:FromCzech|talk]]) 05:06, 3 March 2025 (UTC)
*'''Rivers''' - it is concise, neutral, natural, and inclusive (as I said in 2016) --[[User:PaulBetteridge|PaulBetteridge]] ([[User talk:PaulBetteridge|talk]]) 14:42, 3 March 2025 (UTC)
* "Rivers" seems preferable as being accessible and understandable to readers, as well as being concise, although I'm sure a few variations would work. [[User:Chipmunkdavis|CMD]] ([[User talk:Chipmunkdavis|talk]]) 09:15, 5 March 2025 (UTC)
----

====Simple poll re acceptability====

There are a lot of good ideas and discussion, but it seems that we haven't come to a consensus. I've found in past naming discussions that asking editors what would be ''acceptable'' rather than ''best'' can sometimes reveal consensus on an idea. This is a form of [[approval voting]]: I'll list the ideas that we've generated so far, and if you find the naming scheme (for the category tree) to be acceptable to you, sign your name below the idea. You can accept as many alternatives as you wish. You can also add more alternatives, if you wish. Thanks for participating! — [[User:Hike395|hike395]] ([[User talk:Hike395|talk]]) 05:14, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

:Thanks for starting this poll. I’ve added a bit of explanation to each one with a simple method of adding one’s name. [[User:YBG|YBG]] ([[User talk:YBG|talk]]) 06:36, 6 March 2025 (UTC)
::Might we want to include "streams" as a compromise option?  It's the word used in the top-level category description (posted below). [[User:Tevildo|Tevildo]] ([[User talk:Tevildo|talk]]) 08:16, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

;Watercourses
If this option is acceptable to you, click '''Reply''' to '''''this''''' message, add four tildes and save. This will add your signature to the bottom of this list. Add any other comments to {{slink|| Extended wordy discussion }} below. [[User:YBG|YBG]] ([[User talk:YBG|talk]]) 06:05, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

:[[User:Tevildo|Tevildo]] ([[User talk:Tevildo|talk]]) 07:50, 6 March 2025 (UTC)
:[[User:FromCzech|FromCzech]] ([[User talk:FromCzech|talk]]) 20:31, 6 March 2025 (UTC)
:[[User:Thewellman|Thewellman]] ([[User talk:Thewellman|talk]]) 22:28, 6 March 2025 (UTC)
:[[User:ChaseKiwi|ChaseKiwi]] ([[User talk:ChaseKiwi|talk]]) 07:55, 8 March 2025 (UTC)
:'''[[User:Volcanoguy|<i style="color: red;">Volcano</i>]][[User talk:Volcanoguy|<i style="color: black;">guy</i>]]''' 22:39, 8 March 2025 (UTC)

;Rivers
If this option is acceptable to you, click '''Reply''' to '''''this''''' message, add four tildes and save. This will add your signature to the bottom of this list. Add any other comments to {{slink|| Extended wordy discussion }} below. [[User:YBG|YBG]] ([[User talk:YBG|talk]]) 06:05, 6 March 2025 (UTC)
::<small>[[User:YBG|YBG]], what do you mean by ''click Reply to this message''?  Where is there a clickable "Reply", and why not just add a new line with indent and signature?  [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 20:26, 6 March 2025 (UTC)</small>
:::<small>Just after my signature and time stamp above you should see a left-pointing arrow and the word Reply. Clicking this avoids having to search for the right place to add your signature. This feature was deployed to desktop in March 2022 and mobile in March 2023. [[User:YBG|YBG]] ([[User talk:YBG|talk]]) 01:05, 7 March 2025 (UTC) </small>

:[[User:YBG|YBG]] ([[User talk:YBG|talk]]) 06:34, 6 March 2025 (UTC)
:[[User:Kerry Raymond|Kerry]] ([[User talk:Kerry Raymond|talk]]) 09:37, 6 March 2025 (UTC)
:[[User talk:Donald Albury|Donald Albury]] 16:29, 6 March 2025 (UTC)
:[[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 20:26, 6 March 2025 (UTC)
:[[User:Thewellman|Thewellman]] ([[User talk:Thewellman|talk]]) 22:28, 6 March 2025 (UTC)
:[[User:PaulBetteridge|PaulBetteridge]] ([[User talk:PaulBetteridge|talk]]) 23:05, 6 March 2025 (UTC)
:[[User:ChaseKiwi|ChaseKiwi]] ([[User talk:ChaseKiwi|talk]]) 07:56, 8 March 2025 (UTC)
:[[User:TimK MSI|TimK MSI]] ([[User talk:TimK MSI|talk]]) 14:14, 8 March 2025 (UTC)

;Rivers and streams
If this option is acceptable to you, click '''Reply''' to '''''this''''' message, add four tildes and save. This will add your signature to the bottom of this list. Add any other comments to {{slink|| Extended wordy discussion }} below. [[User:YBG|YBG]] ([[User talk:YBG|talk]]) 06:05, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

:[[User:Tevildo|Tevildo]] ([[User talk:Tevildo|talk]]) 07:50, 6 March 2025 (UTC)
:[[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 20:26, 6 March 2025 (UTC)
:[[User:FromCzech|FromCzech]] ([[User talk:FromCzech|talk]]) 20:31, 6 March 2025 (UTC)
:[[User:Thewellman|Thewellman]] ([[User talk:Thewellman|talk]]) 22:28, 6 March 2025 (UTC)
:[[User:TimK MSI|TimK MSI]] ([[User talk:TimK MSI|talk]]) 14:14, 8 March 2025 (UTC)
:'''[[User:Volcanoguy|<i style="color: red;">Volcano</i>]][[User talk:Volcanoguy|<i style="color: black;">guy</i>]]''' 22:39, 8 March 2025 (UTC)

;Natural watercourses
If this option is acceptable to you, click '''Reply''' to '''''this''''' message, add four tildes and save. This will add your signature to the bottom of this list. Add any other comments to {{slink|| Extended wordy discussion }} below. [[User:YBG|YBG]] ([[User talk:YBG|talk]]) 06:05, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

:<s>[[User:Tevildo|Tevildo]] ([[User talk:Tevildo|talk]]) 07:51, 6 March 2025 (UTC)</s>

;Streams
If this option is acceptable to you, click '''Reply''' to '''''this''''' message, add four tildes and save. This will add your signature to the bottom of this list. Add any other comments to {{slink|| Extended wordy discussion }} below. [[User:YBG|YBG]] ([[User talk:YBG|talk]]) 06:05, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

:[[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 20:26, 6 March 2025 (UTC)
:[[User:Tevildo|Tevildo]] ([[User talk:Tevildo|talk]]) 23:10, 6 March 2025 (UTC)
:[[User:TimK MSI|TimK MSI]] ([[User talk:TimK MSI|talk]]) 14:14, 8 March 2025 (UTC)

===Extended wordy discussion===
(I took the liberty of adding this section... maybe just I will use it, I don't know, but I like to address questions in more detail (or maybe I'm just prolix, you decide), and I think multi-paragraph arguments tend to muddy up the "votes" section.) [[User:Herostratus|Herostratus]] ([[User talk:Herostratus|talk]]) 17:39, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

So, regarding using the ''names'', that is a straight out. [[Gut (coastal geography)]] is a narrow coastal strait subject to strong tides, but South Gut and North Gut at the settlement of South Gut St. Anns, Nova Scotia are just inlets, while Brewery Gut in England and The Gut in Ontario are fast-flowing stretches of river, Jigsaw Rock Gut in Antarctica is a gully, and Gardner's Gut in New Zealand is a cave system. Conversely, some guts are not so named, such as The Rip, a gut in Australia, where the term "gut" is not used. (FWIW, [[Stream]] notes that "In hydrography, gut is a small creek... for instance, The Gut in Pennsylvania, Ash Gut in Delaware, and other streams down into the Caribbean (for instance, Guinea Gut, Fish Bay Gut, Cob Gut, Battery Gut and other rivers and streams in the United States Virgin Islands, in Jamaica (Sandy Gut, Bens Gut River, White Gut River), and in many streams and creeks of the Dutch Caribbean". So, some flowing-water bodies are not named stream or creek. 

So if we are not using names because they can be misleading, ''where do we draw the line''? We can't. For some entities we will have a source ("Jameson Flow is a stream..."), but that's often enough going to be just some writer's opinion, something she heard somewhere, or the irst word she thought of based on her education/culture, and anyway for some or a lot we don't have anything. Making up our own definition (Stream is X gallons per minute flow at the highest-flow point, creek is less) based on considered research would be OK, or even better would be some official or learned body's definition if there is one (if it is international), but lots of editors are probably not going to know of this standard when they write I suppose. And so some articles probably have "X is a stream..." or "Y is a creek" for similar-sized entities. Which enh, that's not a big deal for the text (they are sufficiently interchangeable to the general public I think), but categorizing on the lede would be kind of random.

TL;DR is that we can't differentiate to the degree useful for categorization, which is kind of a formal naming of the entity. So we have to have to have one category for both, whatever it is named. [[User:Herostratus|Herostratus]] ([[User talk:Herostratus|talk]]) 17:39, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

* At first I was going to indicate that all four options are acceptable, but I have changed my mind. The ancestor super category of all of these categories ([[:category:Rivers]]) says in its description {{tq| This category is for subcategories for all types of streams, e.g., branch, brook, beck, burn, creek, "crick", gill (occasionally ghyll), kill, lick, rill, river, syke, bayou, rivulet, streamage, wash, run or runnel}}. So I am now voting just for Rivers. [[User:YBG|YBG]] ([[User talk:YBG|talk]]) 06:33, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

* A comment based on the "natural watercourses" option above.  Does this imply that the categories, whatever name we finally decide on, should exclude artificial rivers (such as the [[Old Bedford River]])?  Or will this only be the case if "natural watercourses" is selected?  The current category description (posted above) does not explicitly exclude or include artificial streams. [[User:Tevildo|Tevildo]] ([[User talk:Tevildo|talk]]) 08:07, 6 March 2025 (UTC)
::There are [https://petscan.wmcloud.org/?psid=32961121 thousands of categories] that start with "Rivers of", I don't think there's a practical mechanism to exclude artificial streams if we change the names. — [[User:Hike395|hike395]] ([[User talk:Hike395|talk]]) 14:12, 6 March 2025 (UTC)
::: "Natural watercourses" would raise a problem with potential ambiguity concerning the extent to which natural watercourses have been modified for navigation from merely dredging to increase depth thru major realignment to avoid meanders to actual capture to support a canal lock system.  Modifications for drainage and irrigation offer similar ambiguity, although generally on a smaller scale. [[User:Thewellman|Thewellman]] ([[User talk:Thewellman|talk]]) 22:18, 6 March 2025 (UTC)
::: Thanks for clarifying that this isn't a pre-existing standard.  I've stricken my !vote above accordingly. [[User:Tevildo|Tevildo]] ([[User talk:Tevildo|talk]]) 23:13, 6 March 2025 (UTC)
{{Archive bottom}}

== Requested move at [[Talk:Yenisey#Requested move 18 February 2025]] ==
[[File:Information.svg|30px|left]] There is a requested move discussion at [[Talk:Yenisey#Requested move 18 February 2025]] that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. [[User talk:Reading Beans|<span style="color:#333">'''Reading Beans, Duke of Rivia'''</span>]] 23:15, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

== Requested move at [[Talk:Bar (river)#Requested move 25 February 2025]] ==
[[File:Information.svg|30px|left]] There is a requested move discussion at [[Talk:Bar (river)#Requested move 25 February 2025]] that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. ''[[User:TarnishedPath|<b style="color:#ff0000;">Tar</b><b style="color:#ff7070;">nis</b><b style="color:#ffa0a0;">hed</b><b style="color:#420000;">Path</b>]]''<sup>[[User talk:TarnishedPath|<b style="color:#bd4004;">talk</b>]]</sup> 08:21, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

== Requested move at [[Talk:Wadi Gaza and Besor Stream#Requested move 6 March 2025]] ==
[[File:Information.svg|30px|left]] There is a requested move discussion at [[Talk:Wadi Gaza and Besor Stream#Requested move 6 March 2025]] that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. [[User:ModernDayTrilobite|ModernDayTrilobite]] ([[User talk:ModernDayTrilobite|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/ModernDayTrilobite|contribs]]) 16:22, 28 March 2025 (UTC)

== Requested move at [[Talk:Te Awa o Mokotūāraro#Requested move 6 April 2025]] ==
[[File:Information.svg|30px|left]] There is a requested move discussion at [[Talk:Te Awa o Mokotūāraro#Requested move 6 April 2025]] that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. ''[[User:TarnishedPath|<b style="color:#ff0000;">Tar</b><b style="color:#ff7070;">nis</b><b style="color:#ffa0a0;">hed</b><b style="color:#420000;">Path</b>]]''<sup>[[User talk:TarnishedPath|<b style="color:#bd4004;">talk</b>]]</sup> 08:33, 13 April 2025 (UTC)

==  [[Wikipedia:Proposed deletion|Proposed deletion]] of [[:Mahaut River (St. Paul)]] ==
[[File:Ambox warning yellow.svg|left|link=|alt=Notice|48px|]]

The article [[:Mahaut River (St. Paul)]] has been [[Wikipedia:Proposed deletion|proposed for deletion]]&#32;because of the following concern:
<blockquote>'''Unreferenced and unimproved for over 15 years. No other language has an actual Start article from which to translate. Run of the mill, small creek. May have factual errors.'''</blockquote>

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be [[WP:DEL#REASON|deleted for any of several reasons]].

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{Tlc|proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your [[Help:edit summary|edit summary]] or on [[Talk:Mahaut River (St. Paul)|the article's talk page]].

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing {{Tlc|proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the [[Wikipedia:Proposed deletion|proposed deletion process]], but other [[Wikipedia:deletion process|deletion process]]es exist. In particular, the [[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion|speedy deletion]] process can result in deletion without discussion, and [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion|articles for deletion]] allows discussion to reach [[Wikipedia:Consensus|consensus]] for deletion.<!-- Template:Proposed deletion notify --> [[User:Bearian|Bearian]] ([[User talk:Bearian|talk]]) 04:07, 15 April 2025 (UTC)

== Help illustrate climate change information on Wikipedia and win a signed copy of The Climate Book by Greta Thunberg ==

<div style="display:flex; align-items: center;">
<div style="min-width: 160px; text-align: center; padding: 10px;">[[File:Wikipedia Community cartoon - for International Women's Day.svg|150px]]</div><div style="padding: 10px 0;">
Dear all 

I’m very happy to let you know we are running a competition at [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Climate change/Illustrate Climate Change competition|Wikiproject Climate Change]] to encourage people to help improve visual information about climate change including its impacts on rivers and water more widely. The competition is open until the 17th of May for all language versions of Wikipedia. The top three point scorers will each win a signed copy of The Climate Book by Greta Thunberg. 

Please let me know if you have any questions

Thanks :)

[[User:John Cummings|John Cummings]] ([[User talk:John Cummings|talk]]) 16:51, 17 April 2025 (UTC)
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== Good article reassessment for [[Klamath River]] ==
[[Klamath River]] has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the [[Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/Klamath River/1|reassessment page]]. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. [[User:Z1720|Z1720]] ([[User talk:Z1720|talk]]) 20:25, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

== Please help with [[Talk:Besor_Stream#RFC:_Main_source_of_the_Besor_stream]] ==

[[File:Information.svg|30px|left]] There is an RfC at [[Talk:Besor_Stream#RFC:_Main_source_of_the_Besor_stream]], the question is over how to describe the source of the stream (there are different options for where the source is). Help from members of this WikiProject would be appreciated. [[User:Samuelshraga|Samuelshraga]] ([[User talk:Samuelshraga|talk]]) 08:59, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

:It would also be helpful if someone is willing to comment on how river systems with multiple channels are usually handled.
:Thank you! [[User:MilesVorkosigan|MilesVorkosigan]] ([[User talk:MilesVorkosigan|talk]]) 19:01, 12 May 2025 (UTC)