View source for Wiki143 talk:Stub

{{WikiProject banner shell|collapsed=yes|1=
{{WikiProject Stub sorting}}
{{WikiProject Manual of Style}}
{{Wikipedia Help Project|importance=Mid}}
}}
{{Shortcut|WT:STUB}}
{{onlinesource 
| title = How I fell in love with Wikipedia [1]
| author = Nicholson Baker 
| date = 10 April 2008 
| url = http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/apr/10/wikipedia.internet
| org = The Guardian
| section = April
|collapsed=yes}}

{{archives|search=yes|index=/Archive|bot=ClueBot III|age=365}}
{{User:ClueBot III/ArchiveThis
| age=8760
| archiveprefix=Wikipedia talk:Stub/Archive
| header={{aan}}
| numberstart=14
| maxarchsize=75000
| format= %%i
}}

{{Hatnote|See also: [[Wikipedia talk:Find or fix a stub]] for older discussion.}}

== Statistics ==

I've added some statistical information about typical stubs.  See [[User talk:BilledMammal/Average articles#c-WhatamIdoing-20240818051500-WhatamIdoing-20240818044000]] for some of the background. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 04:08, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

:A couple of quick numbers:
:* 43% have 10 or fewer sentences
:* 41% have 250 or fewer words
:* 62% have 500 or fewer words
:[[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 03:20, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

== stub articles ==

I've added a fair amount of new info/sources to an article deemed a 'stub' - how do I know when to remove the stub tag? In my opinion it's worthy to be removed. If someone is responding to these, I can give them the article name and get your opinion. [[User:Gregorcollins|Gregorcollins]] ([[User talk:Gregorcollins|talk]]) 14:07, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

:See [[Wikipedia:Stub#How big is to big?]] and then use your judgment. Like many of the "rules" in Wikipedia, that guidance is vague, and users have a lot of discretion in deciding when an article is no longer a stub. If it really is too long to be a stub, even if you don't remove the stub notice, someone (or a bot) may come along and remove it. [[User talk:Donald Albury|Donald Albury]] 18:14, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

== Replace double-blank-line method with CSS ==
{{Tracked|T382578}}

The [[WP:STUBSPACING]] section says: {{tq|'''Leave two blank lines between the first stub template and whatever precedes it''' (one blank line leaves the stub category notice butted up against any preceding navigation template; it takes two blank lines in the edited text to produce one blank line in the displayed text).}} Wouldn't it be better to use CSS? To maintain the current spacing, we could add something like

<syntaxhighlight lang="css">
:not(p):not(.asbox) + style + .asbox {
	margin-top: 3em;
}
</syntaxhighlight>

to [[Template:Asbox/styles.css]]. I would suggest using <code>1em</code> instead of <code>3em</code>, though. Aside from looking better IMO, it would allow us to spot pages using the double-blank-line method easily and correct them. But I'm fine either way.

What do people think of this idea? [[User:Mr. Starfleet Command|Mr. Starfleet Command]] ([[User talk:Mr. Starfleet Command|talk]]) 17:31, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
:We last discussed this over six years ago <small>(or two years ago, the discussion seems to have a span of more than four years)</small> at [[Wikipedia talk:Stub/Archive 15#Double blank lines, again]], and I offered a CSS rule which was somewhat simpler. The discussion also contains some links back to earlier discussions. Other participants included: {{u|Donald Albury}}; {{u|Grutness}}; {{u|Jonkerz}}; {{u|Kvng}}; {{u|Lugnuts}}; {{u|Mclay1}}; {{u|PamD}}; {{u|Pbsouthwood}}; {{u|Peter coxhead}}; {{u|SMcCandlish}}. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] &#x1f339; ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 20:59, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
::@[[User:Redrose64|Redrose64]] Thanks.
::The benefit of my CSS rule is that it only applies the margin if the stub template isn't preceded by a paragraph, which prevents extra space being generated if the extra line hasn't been removed yet. Other than that, my CSS accounts for the <code>style</code> element that comes directly above the stub notice, which wasn't a factor in 2016 since TemplateStyles hadn't been introduced yet.
::[[User:Mr. Starfleet Command|Mr. Starfleet Command]] ([[User talk:Mr. Starfleet Command|talk]]) 21:19, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
::I don't see any obvious problem. &middot; &middot; &middot; [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter Southwood]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|<sup>(talk)</sup>]]: 09:29, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
:Without fully understanding the technicality, that sounds good to me. I've always thought it would make more sense for the stub templates to provide any necessary extra spacing. Would this CSS also work if there are zero blank lines before the stub template? [[User:Mclay1|Mclay1]] ([[User talk:Mclay1|talk]]) 23:17, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
::{{reply|Mclay1}} Yes, it would. [[User:Mr. Starfleet Command|Mr. Starfleet Command]] ([[User talk:Mr. Starfleet Command|talk]]) 23:20, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
:Switching to CSS seems eminently sensible, because hardcoded double newline always looked nonsensical in source, whereas if it's a CSS property it's presumably tunable by reader (user) preferences. --[[User:Joy|Joy]] ([[User talk:Joy|talk]]) 00:16, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
::Also, since we seem to have had at least 8 discussions about this over a period of 17 years, it should be noted that this is a matter where allowing each person to tune it to their preference is of more importance than usual. --[[User:Joy|Joy]] ([[User talk:Joy|talk]]) 00:22, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
:I'm definitely on board with this, as long as it gets tested well in various scenarios before wide implementation. If it's all working well, then the double blank lines stuff can be cleaned up by a bot job as part of any general-housekeeping edit the bot makes to a page (shouldn't be done as an edit on its own though, per [[WP:COSMETICBOT]]). <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 02:38, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
::I'm on board with this, with one proviso - I take it this doesn't add blank lines between stub templates on articles where more than one template is in use? If, say, an articles is both a {{tl|Belgium-struct-stub}} and a {{tl|theatre-stub}}? It would still need to work if a stub template follows any other template (such as an infobox) - though theoretically stub templates should only be directly below categories and nothing else... [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small>[[User_talk:Grutness|<span style="color: #008822;">wha?</span>]]</small>'' 03:41, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
:::@[[User:Grutness|Grutness]] Correct &ndash; it only adds a blank space if the thing above the stub template isn't another stub template. So if you have multiple stub templates one after another, only the first one gets extra space put in above it. [[User:Mr. Starfleet Command|Mr. Starfleet Command]] ([[User talk:Mr. Starfleet Command|talk]]) 03:48, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
:Seems good to me. Newbies are often puzzled by the double blank lines and either don't use them in a new article or remove them. This is a much better approach. [[User:Peter coxhead|Peter coxhead]] ([[User talk:Peter coxhead|talk]]) 07:31, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support''' - While I don't understand how CSS works in this context, the description sounds like exactly what we want: whitespace added only when it is not already there. ~[[User:Kvng|Kvng]] ([[User talk:Kvng|talk]]) 17:45, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
*'''Comment:''' If this is implemented I foresee some massive bot-work removing the current blank lines on articles! [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small>[[User_talk:Grutness|<span style="color: #008822;">wha?</span>]]</small>'' 02:12, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
*:Blank lines will not ''need'' to be removed, so should only be removed along with necessary/useful edits &middot; &middot; &middot; [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter Southwood]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|<sup>(talk)</sup>]]: 04:49, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
:I've made an [[Template talk:Asbox#CSS edit request|edit request]] to add the CSS I suggested above to [[Template:Asbox/styles.css]]. [[User:Mr. Starfleet Command|Mr. Starfleet Command]] ([[User talk:Mr. Starfleet Command|talk]]) 23:02, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
::The edit request above [[Special:diff/1263913190|has been implemented]] on 19 December 2024. Accordingly, the overleaf advice at [[WP:TAGSTUB]] about two blank lines ought to be removed. The shortcut [[:WP:STUBSPACING]], now unnecessary, should also be removed. I'm not sure whether a mention of the previous advice and this change should be mentioned. -- [[User:Michael Bednarek|Michael Bednarek]] ([[User talk:Michael Bednarek|talk]]) 13:04, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
:::I've changed the wording; feel free to modify it further if you want. [[User:Mr. Starfleet Command|Mr. Starfleet Command]] ([[User talk:Mr. Starfleet Command|talk]]) 13:31, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
::::Thank you. Your wording looks fine to me. -- [[User:Michael Bednarek|Michael Bednarek]] ([[User talk:Michael Bednarek|talk]]) 13:35, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
::: Please leave [[:WP:STUBSPACING]] in place for a while – there will be some collateral discussion about this elsewhere — [[User:GhostInTheMachine|GhostInTheMachine]] <sup>[[User talk:GhostInTheMachine|talk to me]]</sup> 09:00, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
::::Good point. &middot; &middot; &middot; [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter Southwood]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|<sup>(talk)</sup>]]: 09:52, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
::: I assume that this is so far just in EN? I have no idea what other wikis do about stubs — [[User:GhostInTheMachine|GhostInTheMachine]] <sup>[[User talk:GhostInTheMachine|talk to me]]</sup> 23:41, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

:I'm not sure this CSS change is working. Compare [[Protocol-control information]] and [[Managed object]]. My understanding was that the change would result in the same rendering with or without the extra spacing. ~[[User:Kvng|Kvng]] ([[User talk:Kvng|talk]]) 19:56, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
::@[[User:Kvng|Kvng]] see [[Template talk:Asbox#c-DocWatson42-20241230090600-CSS edit request|this comment]] and its replies. This seems to be the same issue, and only affects some users (I'm seeing the two pages you linked correctly, as I do the pages mentioned at the above link). [[User:Mr. Starfleet Command|Mr. Starfleet Command]] ([[User talk:Mr. Starfleet Command|talk]]) 00:10, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
:::@[[User:Mr. Starfleet Command|Mr. Starfleet Command]], I've checked and on both Firefox (134.0.1) and Chrome (131.0.6778.265) I am seeing more horizontal whitespace above the stub notice on [[Protocol-control information]]. This is also the case when I'm logged out (using private mode in the browsers). ~[[User:Kvng|Kvng]] ([[User talk:Kvng|talk]]) 02:08, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
:I have updated the [[User:SD0001/StubSorter|StubSorter]] script to use a single blank line. – [[User:SD0001|<span style="font-weight: bold; color: #C30">SD0001</span>]] ([[User talk:SD0001|talk]]) 18:03, 19 May 2025 (UTC)

== How explain the finding of incorrect stubs as Category? ==

Greetings, @[[User:Redrose64|Redrose64]] - At section ''Removing stub status'', today I added the following sentence.
:"Occasionally, a "Category" is used to indicate a stub article instead of the stub tag, and those are also near the bottom of the page."
:And saw the revert explanation: ''they shouldn't be. Stub categories are not intended for direct use, they should always be via one of the stub templates''

And I do agree 100-percent that stubs do not/should not be written as a Category. I was trying to alert other editors of this type of error that I do encounter from time-to-time. Is there a better way of explaining? Or perhaps place the explanation at a different spot in the Stub article? Should those category-stubs always be deleted regardless of the article class assessment?

Regards, [[User:JoeNMLC|JoeNMLC]] ([[User talk:JoeNMLC|talk]]) 23:02, 30 January 2025 (UTC)

:Perhaps:
:"If you see a stub category directly typed into the list of categories at the end of the page, please replace it with the correct stub template." [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 23:34, 30 January 2025 (UTC)
::@[[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] - Thanks. Good wording for action to correct the error (and article remains a Stub-class). Also need a second sentence to explain when doing stub-removal; for example, article is assessed as Start or C-class level. Even though English is my first language, sometimes I confuse myself. Cheers! :-) <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:JoeNMLC|JoeNMLC]] ([[User talk:JoeNMLC#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/JoeNMLC|contribs]]) 17:21, 2 February 2025 (UTC)</small>

==[[WP:STUBSPACING]] clarification==
As currently written, "Until December 2024, it was the standard to leave two blank lines between the first stub template on a page and whatever preceded it. This is now unnecessary, and the extra line should be removed when encountered."

After reading this entry, as far as I can tell, we are no longer utilizing the double space after the last Category entry before the Stub template(s). Does that mean we are still using one space? Or should there be no spaces at all? Would like to clarify here. When viewing/editing, should it look like:

Example one<br />
<code><nowiki>[[Category:Random category]]</nowiki><br />
<nowiki>{{Random template}}</nowiki></code>

Example two<br />
<code><nowiki>[[Category:Random category]]</nowiki><br />
<br />
<nowiki>{{Random template}}</nowiki></code>

From what I understand was depreciated<br />
<code><nowiki>[[Category:Random category]]</nowiki><br />
<br /><br />
<nowiki>{{Random template}}</nowiki></code>

I thought it should look like example 2, but I've seen some bots running with example 1. I'll hang up and listen. [[User:GauchoDude|GauchoDude]] ([[User talk:GauchoDude|talk]]) 18:37, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

:@[[User:GauchoDude|GauchoDude]]: Your first or second examples work equally well, at least in terms of the output HTML when the page renders. I've seen people argue in favor of the second one to create some visual space between the main body of the article and the stub notice when editing, but I'm not sure there's strong consensus either way. May not matter much. [[User:Mr. Starfleet Command|Mr. Starfleet Command]] ([[User talk:Mr. Starfleet Command|talk]]) 18:56, 25 March 2025 (UTC)
::Understood, thanks for the quick response. Would be curious to see how many operate in one of the two fashions above. I'm in camp 2 myself. [[User:GauchoDude|GauchoDude]] ([[User talk:GauchoDude|talk]]) 18:59, 25 March 2025 (UTC)
:I've been using example two ~[[User:Kvng|Kvng]] ([[User talk:Kvng|talk]]) 16:58, 30 March 2025 (UTC)
::Thanks for the response. As have I. I assumed this was normal/the standard. [[User:GauchoDude|GauchoDude]] ([[User talk:GauchoDude|talk]]) 12:45, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

== Some Examples of Stub Templates ==

Regular:
{{Stub}}
Stations:
{{TV-stub}}
{{Radio-station-stub}}
For stations, you must be specific (e.g. {{PuertoRico-radio-station-stub}})
Other:
{{Hurricane-stub}}
{{Writer-stub}}
{{Website-stub}}
You can add these to an article if you think that it's too short. [[Special:Contributions/2604:B000:A218:FF4:8CCC:E18:F8B3:CC15|2604:B000:A218:FF4:8CCC:E18:F8B3:CC15]] ([[User talk:2604:B000:A218:FF4:8CCC:E18:F8B3:CC15|talk]]) 22:56, 15 June 2025 (UTC)