View source for Wiki143:Templates for discussion/Log/Not deleted/August 2005

====[[Template:Football in Portugal]]====
Overkill template, with two other templates included (which are of value individually) and a list of seasons, with only one article done. Large, bulky and next to useless, as if needed, the two templates can be placed seperately and the list of seasons converted into a wikilink of [[template:Football in Portugal table cells]], which I've struggled earlier to make barely usable. After FiP is deleted, the "table cells" template could have that part of the name removed, and used for division and federation articles [[User:WolfenSilva|<sup>w</sup>S]];[[User talk:WolfenSilva|✉]] 01:38, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', too heavy handed for its purpose. With that purpose only really being one article, it could just be subst:ed. -[[User:Splash|Splash]] 19:29, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''keep''' --[[User:MarSch|MarSch]] 16:42, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

''two persons questioned the original decision to delete, which led to reassignment here''

<u>Period of comment 9 August AM to 14 August PM &mdash; 6 days</u><br>
<u>Removed from TFD 25 August AM (originally to the deleted log) &mdash; 16 days</u>

==== [[Template:Preview]]====
<s>'''Delete''': It is listed as a template message for the user talk namespace, but it is too large to put on a user's talk page.  It is also just a redirect to [[Wikipedia:Show preview]], which makes it somewhat redundant. -- [[User:Bmicomp|BMIComp]] [[User_talk:bmicomp|(talk]], [[User:bmicomp/RfC|HOWS MY DRIVING)]] 01:59, 1 August 2005 (UTC)</s>
:'''Keep''' as per Alphax.  -- [[User:Bmicomp|BMIComp]] [[User_talk:bmicomp|(talk]], [[User:bmicomp/RfC|HOWS MY DRIVING)]] 01:35, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', unnecessary. --[[User:Angr|Angr]]/[[User_talk:Angr|<sub>{{IPA|tɔk tə mi}}</sub>]] 05:50, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', pointless. [[Special:Contributions/Who|<span style="color:#FF0033;">∞</span>]][[User:Who|Who]][[User talk:Who|<span style="color:#00Ff00;">?</span><span style="color:#FF00FF;">¿</span><span style="color:#0033FF;">?</span>]] 11:35, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Although I've never seen this before, any template that is a redirect outside of the Template namespace should be a '''Speedy delete''' candidate. [[User:BlankVerse|<span style="color:green;">''Blank''</span><span style="color:#F88017;">''Verse''</span>]] [[User talk:BlankVerse|<span style="color:#F660AB;">∅</span>]] 12:32, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
**'''Deleted'''. nonsense. [[User:Ed g2s|<span style="font-family:verdana;">ed g2s</span>]] • [[User talk:ed_g2s|<span style="font-family:verdana;">talk</span>]] 01:19, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Comment''': It was created as a bit of a joke - the idea being to substitute it into a user's talk page. I've recreated a shorter, more useful version. Edit it mecilessly, but '''please''' don't delete it on sight. [[User:Alphax|Alphax]]&nbsp;<sup>[[User talk:Alphax|τ]][[Special:Emailuser/Alphax|ε]][[Special:Contributions/Alphax|χ]]</sup> 10:22, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', now a valid, useful template. Sigh... [[User:Alphax|Alphax]]&nbsp;<sup>[[User talk:Alphax|τ]][[Special:Emailuser/Alphax|ε]][[Special:Contributions/Alphax|χ]]</sup> 01:23, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

<u>Period for comment 1 August AM to 10 August AM &mdash; 9 days</u>
<u>Removed from TFD 10 August PM &mdash; 9 days</u>

====[[Template:Sharks]]====
This template have not been deleted but removed from all articles by [[User:Gdr|Gdr]]. The template is a navigational template, it have been discussed before and now GDR thinks there is a consensus since one user was agains and one for removal adding his agains that was a consensus, so he used his bot to remove (not delete) it. See discussion at [[Template talk:Sharks]]. I have stated my point there as has he, or [[User:Stan Shebs|stan]] opinion that GDR agrees with. I can not start a edit war with a admin with a bot so I found this place and though this was a good place to discuss. Also see my suggestion to add nav links under language links? not sure if possible, probably better than this template but that is not the vote. This vote is either for deletion and not usage of the template or for keeping and adding the template back to the articles where it was removed from. [[User:Stefan|Stefan]] 13:05, August 1, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' Is good for navigational purposes, much easier to use than category and tax boxes, especially for new users. [[User:Stefan|Stefan]] 13:05, August 1, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. This template is currently a very, very partial list of the 350+ total possible sharks. Either it will always be rather incomplete, or it will be H--U--G--E--! Either way, it shouldn't be a navigation template. The template should be '''converted to a list''', which can be grouped, annotated, illustrated, etc., and then a link to the new [[List of sharks]] can be added to the "See also" section of each shark article. [[User:BlankVerse|<span style="color:green;">''Blank''</span><span style="color:#F88017;">''Verse''</span>]] [[User talk:BlankVerse|<span style="color:#F660AB;">∅</span>]] 15:47, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' - Originally going to say keep, but after reading [User:BlankVerse|<span style="color:green;">''Blank''</span><span style="color:#F88017;">''Verse''</span>]] [[User talk:BlankVerse|<span style="color:#F660AB;">∅</span>]] argument, i'm agreeing with him instead.--[[User:ZeWrestler|<span style="color:green">ZeWrestler</span>]]  [[user talk:ZeWrestler|<sup><span style="color:green">Talk</span></sup>]] 16:25, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' agree with above. - [[User:SimonP|SimonP]] 00:02, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Listify''' and '''delete''', as above. --[[User:Carnildo|Carnildo]] 21:40, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', and '''listify''' if felt necessary. -[[User:Splash|Splash]] 19:33, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. Aesthetically pleasing and extremely useful. This anti-template crusade is a pity.  --[[User:Goethean|goethean]] <big>ॐ</big> 15:46, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' Agree with BlankVerse. The template can only contain small percentage of sharks, so a list is more appropriate in this case. [[User:The JPS|The JPS]] 16:02, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' per Goethean. --[[User:WikiFan04|WikiFan04]]<sup>[[User_talk:WikiFan04|Talk]] 20:14, 6 Aug 2005 (CDT)</sup>
*'''Delete''' as per BlankVerse. It ''may'' be "Aesthetically pleasing" now but not when there are hundreds of links on it in the future if kept. [[User:RedWolf|RedWolf]] 22:33, August 8, 2005 (UTC)

The consensus appears to be to listify: therefore I have moved the template to "list of sharks" and editors can do what they want with it. [[User:Dan100|Dan100]] ([[User talk:Dan100|Talk)]] 11:52, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

<u>Period for comment 1 August PM to 10 August PM &mdash; 9 days</u>
<u>Removed from TFD 10 August PM &mdash; 9 days</u>

==== [[Template:Chicagoland]]====
'''Delete''': This template is unnecessary. We already have one for the City of Chicago and one for the state of Illinois which lists both the Chicagoland region and most of the cities in the regions. Having potentially three regional templates on a page (<nowiki>{{Chicago}} {{Illinois}} and {{Chicagoland}}</nowiki>) just seems excessive. Plus, the template isnt even fell formatted. --'''[[User: Gpyoung|Gpyoung]]'''&nbsp;<sup>''[[User talk:Gpyoung|talk]]''</sup> 03:24, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. Parts of Chicagoland lie within Indiana and Wisconsin. &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 14:50, August 5, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. The template is informative. The easy solution is for <nowiki>{{Chicago}}to replace {{Chicagoland}}</nowiki> in articles about Chicago. --[[User:Goethean|goethean]] <big>ॐ</big> 15:35, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
**I think the base problem here needs a better solution.  Very often you have a city and other governments that frequently go by the name of the city or other names.  There is a lot of overlap.  I hope this discussion becomes a step on the road to fixing the overall problem.  In looking at the template in question, I don't see it as a big issue so I'd vote '''Keep''' but maybe someone needs to make sure that only one of the two local ones listed above is used in an article.  [[User:Vegaswikian|Vegaswikian]] 19:53, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
*<s>'''Oppose'''</s> '''Keep'''.  As Instantnood mentioned, this template is helpful for those regions of Chicagoland stretching into other states.  --[[User:BaronLarf|Baron]][[User talk:BaronLarf|Larf]] 18:36, August 5, 2005 (UTC)
*<s>'''Oppose'''</s> '''Keep'''. Chicagoland comprises a significant proportion of the Illinois population as well as serves a navigational purpose for many chicagoland related pages. &mdash; <span style="color:#cc0000;">''oo64eva (Alex)'' </span><sup>([[User: oo64eva|U]] | [[User_talk:Oo64eva|T]] | [[Special:Contributions/Oo64eva|C]])</sup> @ 18:39, August 5, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Comment'''.  Could people please use '''Keep''' or '''Delete''', rather than Oppose?  It makes it harder to know if you are opposing the templates nomination (i.e. want to Keep it) or opposing it's existence (i.e. want to Delete it).  I think it is usually the former, but I would rather not have to interpret every comment just to be sure.  Thanks.  [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] 21:39, August 5, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Strong Delete''' and '''categorize'''. An uncertainly defined list, as the discussion of [[Rockford, Illinois]] on its talkpage shows; without the advantage of a list article in discussing doubtlful cases. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 21:50, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
**But Chicagoland is defined; see the [[Chicagoland]] article for the counties of which it is comprised. If someone added Rockford thinking it was in Chicagoland, they were simply mistaken. [[User:HollyAm|HollyAm]] 22:42, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' Chicagoland has over 8 million residents. I think that it would deserve a template. --[[User:67.173.128.161|67.173.128.161]] 03:23, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
*<s>'''Merge''', which I've already taken the liberty of doing, into [[:Template:Chicago]].</s>  I think it looks much better and is more compact this way.--[[User:Pharos|Pharos]] 04:07, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
**Nah, this is unnecessary, '''keep''', and have a look at the new and improved design of [[:Template:Chicagoland]] on the model of [[:Template:Chicago]].--[[User:Pharos|Pharos]] 04:25, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. Useful template. If too many templates is the concern, there is already a link to [[Chicagoland]] in [[Template:Chicago]], so eliminate [[Template:Chicagoland]] from City of [[Chicago]] articles. Suburb articles would not have [[Template:Chicago]], so again, only two templates. If formatting or content is the concern, these could have been discussed on talk or changed (compliments to [[User:Pharos]] on the latter). [[User:HollyAm|HollyAm]] 22:20, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

<u>Period for comment 5 August AM to 6 August PM &mdash; 1 day</u>
<u>Removed from TFD 12 August PM &mdash; 7 days</u>

====[[Template:Scientific classification]]====
'''Delete''', well-meaning, but inappropriate way to generate [[WP:TX|taxoboxes]]. Currently linked by two articles that I will soon have converted. [[User:Circeus|Circeus]] 16:44, August 5, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Conditional Keep'''-It seems like a good idea and a good thing to have. If it isnt quite up to speed, I think it can definatly be fixed and brought up to standard. I dont quite understand your link about the Taxoboxes, so that is why I voted conditional keep. If you can show that there is a better way to do it, I will change my vote. --'''[[User: Gpyoung|Gpyoung]]'''&nbsp;<sup>''[[User talk:Gpyoung|talk]]''</sup> 17:47, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
*Assembling a taxobox can be tricky. A template that handled the more common cases would be helpful. But this tempalte is rather more limited than its name implies. This templace creates a taxobox for a single animal species. It does not handle plants or fungi or other non-animal species. It does not handle taxoboxes for a group larger than a singel species (a family or order, say). It does not handle taxoboxes when any of the less common levels of classification should be used (sub-class or super-class, sub-phylem, etc). If this is to be retained, than the usage of its parameters, and these limitatiosn should be throughly documented, with a link to the page where general taxobox format is described, '''and''' its name should be changed to something less general sounding than  ''Scientific classification''. Perhaps [[Template:Animal species taxobox]]. '''Conditional keep''' if these changes are made. By the way, I don't think tempalte syntax is up to a single tempalte that can handle a fully general taxobox, unless there are tricks to template syntax i don't know yet. [[User:DESiegel|DES]] [[User talk:DESiegel|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 12:29, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

<u>Period for comment 5 August PM to 11 August PM &mdash; 6 days</u>
<u>Removed from TFD 12 August PM &mdash; 7 days</u>

====[[Template:Alsace infobox]]====
Redundant with [[Template:Infobox French Région]] that could be used on [[Alsace]] instead. For a discussion see also [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject French régions|WikiProject French régions]]. -- User:Docu
*The template [[Template:Infobox French Région]] was used for only 3 of the 26 ''régions'' of France, whereas the other 23 ''régions'' have each a specific infobox which is more detailed and better laid out than the generic [[Template:Infobox French Région]], so I am puting specific infoboxes for the three remaining ''régions''. It's better to have specific infoboxes for each ''région'' rather than a generic infobox for all the ''régions'' because each ''région'' has its own peculiarities, and one generic infobox cannot do the job (some ''régions'' need footnotes, some don't, some ''régions'' are made up of several ''départements'', while some ''régions'' are monodepartmental, etc.). [[User:Hardouin|Hardouin]] 15:52, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''-This infobox is much better laid out then [[Template:Infobox French Région]] and it is also much more detailed. If [[Template:Infobox French Région]] really is only used on three articles, I think IT should be up for deletion. Sometimes, people here try too hard to standardize things and over-standardization (is that a word?) can sometimes lead to decreased quality, as is shown with [[Template:Infobox French Région]] IMO. --'''[[User: Gpyoung|Gpyoung]]'''&nbsp;<sup>''[[User talk:Gpyoung|talk]]''</sup> 16:14, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
*Didn't all Regions used to use [[Template:Infobox French Région]]? It is fairly easy to add additional fields to the infobox. If an infobox can be made for all countries it should be easy for French regions.-- User:Docu
*Like Gpyoung rightly said, sometimes people try too hard to standardize things, for no real reason. Individual infoboxes take more time to design in the first place, but then they are much more flexible in use than a generic infobox. Besides, I would like to point out that the infoboxes for French ''régions'' were all designed with the same format, so if you check several French ''régions'', you'll have the impression the infobox is a unique standardized infobox, whereas in fact it is specific to each ''région''. So we get both the benefit of standardization (uniform format) and the benefit of specific infoboxes (flexibility). [[User:Hardouin|Hardouin]] 16:40, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

*'''Comment''' I prepared the replacement for [[Template:Alsace infobox]] at [[Template talk:Alsace infobox]]. Is there anything missing? (I agree, I could have prepared that before, please excuse) -- User:Docu
*'''Delete''', as they stand right now Alsace infobox is unneeded specialization.  All you have to do is add the links to the files into the french region template and it will give you the present Alsace box. [[User:Grenavitar|gren]] [[User talk:Grenavitar|グレン]] 20:24, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep.''' --[[User:WikiFan04|WikiFan04]]<sup>[[User_talk:WikiFan04|Talk]] 20:16, 6 Aug 2005 (CDT)</sup>
*'''Comment''' on the surface this would look like a single use template.  Is it likely to be included in more then one article?  [[User:Vegaswikian|Vegaswikian]] 01:46, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''del''', single use template. Also I agree with Grenavitar.--[[User:MarSch|MarSch]] 16:33, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''.  Maybe a subst first.  [[User:Vegaswikian|Vegaswikian]] 07:23, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

<u>Period for comment 6 August to 17 August AM &mdash; 11 days</u>
<u>Removed from TFD 25 August AM &mdash; 19 days</u>

====[[Template:Otherusesabout]]====
Worrying new template that ecourages repetition of opening paragraph above it for disambiguation. [[Template:Otheruses]] is already the standard way to provide a disambiguation link. [[User:Ed g2s|<span style="font-family:verdana;">ed g2s</span>]] • [[User talk:ed_g2s|<span style="font-family:verdana;">talk</span>]] 12:59, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. (By which I mean bot all uses to [[Template:Otheruses]], then delete.) [[User:Ed g2s|<span style="font-family:verdana;">ed g2s</span>]] • [[User talk:ed_g2s|<span style="font-family:verdana;">talk</span>]] 12:59, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
**'''comment''' I wouldn't suggest botting this as suggested ... there are less than 250 uses and the likelihood is that more than one of the bot replacements would result in some manner of nonsense being writ.  Would it be possible to <u>subst:</u> the existing uses if the template gets deleted, which would maintain the ''status quo'' on the articles that currently use it while removing it from circulation for new uses? [[User:Ceyockey|Courtland]] 01:32, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', unnecessary template. &mdash; [[User:Stevey7788|Stevey7788]] ([[User talk:Stevey7788|talk]]) 23:03, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. That being voted, I'll say that "worrying" is a far stronger reaction than warranted.  The reality is that it (I believe, not having made it or discussed it with the makers) was probably created to provide a crutch for the many many many articles that have introductions that are not well written.  I doubt it is encouraging bad writing, because those people who would write a poor introduction would not bother to add the template (one would think), but it is providing a band-aid (or tourniquet, depending on the view of how severe the problem is) to a widespread problem.  Better to remove the band-aid and let the wound heal in the open air. [[User:Ceyockey|Courtland]] 23:50, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Comment'''. Note the (nearly) identical template, {{tl|otheruses1}}. Coincidentally, a template named {{tl|otheruses1}} was deleted per TFD consensus in [[Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/December 2004|December 2004]] --[[User:Blu Aardvark|Blu Aardvark]] | <sup>[[User_talk:Blu Aardvark|(talk)]] | [[special:contributions/Blu Aardvark|(contribs)]]</sup> 00:02, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
*:3 to 1 is not exactly "consensus", or even if it is, not a particularly strong one. &mdash;[[User:Lowellian|Lowellian]] ([[User talk:Lowellian|talk]]) 12:31, August 13, 2005 (UTC)
*::Let's reword that, then. It was deleted through a TFD. The consensus may be questionable, but the result is apparent - it was deleted. Now, I have no idea what the "old" template was, and if it was something entirely different than this one, then the TFD doesn't make any difference. --[[User:Blu Aardvark|Blu Aardvark]] | <sup>[[User_talk:Blu Aardvark|(talk)]] | [[special:contributions/Blu Aardvark|(contribs)]]</sup> 07:06, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Redundancy stinks. -- [[User:jiy|jiy]]<sup>[[User talk:jiy|Talk]]</sup> 00:24, August 12, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. Redundancy is sometimes necessary. --[[User:DuKot|DuKot]] 01:10, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Redundant with {{tl|otheruses1}}. [[User:Cedar-Guardian|CG]] 09:21, August 12, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. redundant with {{tl|otheruses}}. -- User:Docu

[[Template:Otheruses1]] is now orphaned. I propose we delete this too as it is pretty much identical (unless anyone thinks we need to vote separately?). [[User:Ed g2s|<span style="font-family:verdana;">ed g2s</span>]] • [[User talk:ed_g2s|<span style="font-family:verdana;">talk</span>]] 14:26, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
:I think that adding a template to a TfD part way through is less good than just making a new TfD. You should at least inform the prior voters on their talk pages. Oh, and orphaning a tl ''before'' bringing it here and asking if it should be deleted is a little hasty. -[[User:Splash|Splash]] 19:32, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
::I did think of starting a new TfD, but as I said, they're practically identical. Anyone who's voted deleted on the first one would definitely vote delete on the second one. Also I don't need a passed TfD to carry out the orphaning, as the orphaning was done per disambiguation guidelines, the TfD is just to clean up.
::*'''comment''' considering the identity of the two templates, could the second be ''speedied'' if the first is deleted? [[User:Ceyockey|Courtland]] 01:27, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' redundant. -[[User:Splash|Splash]] 19:32, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. I don't understand why people want to delete this. It's not identical to [[Template:Otheruses]], so it's not redundant, right? &mdash;[[User:Lowellian|Lowellian]] ([[User talk:Lowellian|talk]]) 12:33, August 13, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' overdeletionism is a pain in the arse, redirectionism is better. [[User:Duncharris|Dunc]]|[[User talk:duncharris|☺]] 13:55, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', provides context not given by [[Template:Otheruses]].  -[[User:Gtrmp|Sean Curtin]] 04:39, August 14, 2005 (UTC)
*:It's the wrong way to do disambiguation. Context is given by the first line/paragraph of the article. [[User:Ed g2s|<span style="font-family:verdana;">ed g2s</span>]] • [[User talk:ed_g2s|<span style="font-family:verdana;">talk</span>]] 08:56, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
*:* '''comment''' No, it's an OK way to do disambiguation; it's just an inelegant way of doing it.  There are few cases where application of the concept the template targets is needed (as noted below) and those few cases can be handled without the use of a template. [[User:Ceyockey|Courtland]] 01:24, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. redundant with {{tl|otheruses}}. -- User:Docu
*'''Delete''' redundant with introductory paragraph. [[User:JesseW|JesseW]] 06:27, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. [[User:Jdforrester|James F.]] [[User_talk:Jdforrester|(talk)]] 11:23, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' see [[Macedonia]] for an example of where someone has put it to good use. --[[User:Mysidia|Mysidia]] ([[User_talk:Mysidia|talk]]) 21:03, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Please keep'''. There were some terrible revert wars over exactly how the disambig notice at the top of [[Macedonia]] should be worded before this template was finally agreed on for that article. I really don't want to see a revert war over its replacement should this template be deleted. It has a use. Please keep. [[User:Jonathunder|Jonathunder]] 00:44, 2005 August 23 (UTC)
**'''comment''' I came very close to changing my vote to ''Keep'', but then considered that an ''ad hoc'' disambiguation statement to handle the very contentious issues that you've very rightly highlighted is as appropriate as a template, that the revert wars should not start over just because the template disappears because the text can be recapitulated exactly as it appears without the template being used. [[User:Ceyockey|Courtland]] 01:18, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
**'''comment''' it can be done with {{tl|dablink}} or {{tl|for}} instead. -- User:Docu
*'''Delete''' &mdash; [[User:Trilobite|Trilobite]] ([[User_talk:Trilobite|Talk]]) 21:59, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

<u>Period of comment 10 August PM to 28 August PM &mdash; 18 days</u><br>
<u>Removal from TFD 31 August AM &mdash; 20 days</u>

==== [[Template:Las Vegas casinos]]==== 
*'''Delete''' : See Talk Page for template.  Short version: Suggest using [[List of greater Las Vegas resorts]].{{spaced ndash}}'''…[[User:Guy M|<span style="color:red;">G</span><span style="color:orange;">u</span><span style="color:#BBBB00;">y</span>&nbsp;<span style="color:green;">M</span>]]…'''&nbsp;<sup>([[User talk:Guy M|soapbox]])</sup> 08:36, August 11, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''.  The author responded to questions about the template on the talk page by removing all text from the template.  It was not clear what purpose it was intended to serve.  Since it is empty, there is probably no reason to keep it.  [[User:Vegaswikian|Vegaswikian]] 20:39, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
*I'm not bothered whether this is kept or not, but I've re-added the content that was removed, while it's on TFD, and while it's still used by so many pages. [[User:Sjorford|sjorford]] [[User talk:Sjorford|→•←]] 22:08, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
**The content was not removed while it was on TfD, it was removed before.  I think this needs to be returned to the last version before your change.  As a piece of additional information, the new [[Wikipedia:Wikiproject Las Vegas]] has not included this template in their project, likely because of the problems with the version that was not blanked.  [[User:Vegaswikian|Vegaswikian]] 22:27, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
***But this makes no sense - what are people voting on? Voting on a blank template is meaningless - if it's going to ''stay'' blank, just speedy it. If you're going to vote on it, then obviously there's a possibility it could be kept, so people are voting on what it's going to look like ''after'' the vote. Anyway, that's not even the reason I unblanked it - just seeing the message "this template has been blanked..." at the bottom of one of the casino articles looked ugly and out of place. [[User:Sjorford|sjorford]] [[User talk:Sjorford|→•←]] 08:30, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
****Since it is likely to be blanked after this vote, maybe it should have been a speedy since the vote was about the template at the time it was nominated.  If you look at the editors talk page that created this template, you will see a long list of images posted by the editor that have been deleted.  While it does not affect this vote, it does may one wonder. [[User:Vegaswikian|Vegaswikian]] 23:00, 23 August 2005 (UTC)  
*'''Keep''' - Although big, i think this is a very useful template. --[[User:ZeWrestler|<span style="color:green">ZeWrestler</span>]]  [[user talk:ZeWrestler|<sup><span style="color:green">Talk</span></sup>]] 00:17, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' per reason by ZeWrestler -[[User:Michael180|michael180]] 17:47, August 22, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''.  There is no [[List of Greater Las Vegas resorts]], but there is a [[List of casinos]], which is broken down geographically.  There's also a [[:Category:Casinos in Las Vegas]].  Someone who wanted the information in this template could easily use one of those resources. [[User:JamesMLane|JamesMLane]] 21:57, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''  It is very useful. It is much easier than finding other pages that have this information. I use this template allot. When a person reading about casinos on the strip, it makes sense that there should be an easy way to browse to other casinos that strike one's fancy. This is the type of thing that makes Wikipedia a pleasure. It happens to not take up very much space at the bottom of a page, either. Sherm. August 24, 2005
**I agree with you that ease of browsing is great, but the category system can do the job.  The top of each article has a hyperlink to [[:Category:Casinos in Las Vegas]].  You click on the link and you can browse to other casinos.  I think that's reasonably easy.  It also gives you one-click access to [[:Category:Las Vegas, Nevada]] (for non-casino points of interest) and [[:Category:Casinos in Nevada]] (for casinos outside Las Vegas), both of which are likely meanderings for the reader who wants to browse. [[User:JamesMLane|JamesMLane]] 11:01, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

<u>Period for comment 11 August AM to 24 August AM &mdash; 13 days</u>
<u>Removed from TFD 25 August AM &mdash; 14 days</u>

==== [[Template:Shh]] ====
*'''Delete''': Looks like a vanity/advert link to a movie site. [[User:Jpers36|Jpers36]] 04:41, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''':I don't know what you're talking about .. SHH! links have always been put in the articles that concern comic book movie adaptations. what difference does it make if it is put using a template to make it look nicer? why would I advertise for SHH! anyway .. it's not like it's mine, or that I'm making any profit from it .. unless you consider every external link as an ad then you should ban the whole thing from the encylopedia .. and there is right now a whole bunch of templates that are used to generate links to external websites like imdb and rottentomatoes .. they're almost on every page.. the only difference that the SHH! concerns only a few selected articles .. --[[User:AmrHassan|Amr Hassan]] 07:28, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' The template uses a different format than that any of the other links in the "external links" section. At the very least it needs a cleanup, to stay standard accros the board. However, I don't see the purpose in it at all; a simple external link works fine. --[[User:Blu Aardvark|Blu Aardvark]] | <sup>[[User_talk:Blu Aardvark|(talk)]] | [[special:contributions/Blu Aardvark|(contribs)]]</sup> 07:47, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
:Well, ok.. count how many articles it's used in .. what are templates for anyway? and what harm is it doing right now?--[[User:AmrHassan|Amr Hassan]] 08:09, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', Wikipedia's purpose is not to advertise other websites. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<span style="color:orange;">&gt;|&lt;</span>]] 12:53, August 12, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' This looks very similer to {{ttl|imdb title}} or {{ttl|isfdb name}} to me, a template to provide a standard format for making an external link to a site that has pages with urls constructed according to a standard scheme. It should be documented, of course. I routinely add the proper isfdb tempalte to pages on any sf or fantasy author or work I edit, and use one of the IMDB templates on a film-related page. why is this different? [[User:DESiegel|DES]] [[User talk:DESiegel|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 12:57, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
**Indeed I go further -- if I am editing such an article and i see soemone has added a drirect external link to the ISFDB or the IMDB, I will replace it with a template link. [[User:DESiegel|DES]] [[User talk:DESiegel|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 12:59, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' in its current form.  It's not very useful and does seem to be vanity.--[[User:naryathegreat|naryathegreat]] | [[User talk:Naryathegreat|(talk)]] 00:16, August 13, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', as per [[User:DESiegel|DES]]. [[User:Carioca|Carioca]] 02:48, August 13, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', I think it's useful for those who want to keep up with the latest updates on the movies based on comic characters.--[[User:DizerX|DizerX]] 13:04, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''keep''', per DES --[[User:MarSch|MarSch]] 17:18, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' per [[User:DESiegel|DES]]. [[User:Havok|<span style="font-weight: bold;">Havok</span>]] [[User_talk:Havok|(T]]/[[User:Havok/Contributions|C)]] 13:16, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' per the delete votes above. [[User:DreamGuy|DreamGuy]] 00:08, August 20, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Comment''', will somebody delete it or remove the TFD from it already!! --[[User:AmrHassan|Amr Hassan]] 13:39, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' unless there is some specific issue with the website, which I have not seen evidence of. [[User:MosheZadka|MosheZadka]] 14:17, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', as per [[User:DESiegel|DES]]. [[User:Joeyconnick|Joeyconnick]] 17:25, August 22, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' because the link is only in the form of domain.com/name (such as the one seen on [[Sin City]] page) instead of a harder-to-type form such as IMDb's domain.com/title/ttnumber. Having this template does not make anything easier and does not provide standardization of a complex URL (since the URL is not complex at all). A link to SHH can simply be a regular link, and does not require any special templates. --[[User:Hcblue|Hcblue]] 02:24, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Late Delete.''' Just use link under "External links" heading. --[[User:Lord Voldemort|Lord Voldemort]] [[User talk:Lord Voldemort|<sup style="color:#3D9140;">(Dark Mark)</sup>]] 17:15, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

<u>period for comment 12 August AM to 29 August PM &mdash; 17 days</u>
<u>Removed from TFD 30 August AM &mdash; 18 days</u>

==== [[Template:Npov-intro]]/[[Template:POV-intro]] ====

* This is completely unused and should probably be deleted. --[[User:Joy|Joy <small><small>&#91;shallot&#93;</small></small>]] 10:59, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

* '''Keep''', brilliant, this is just the template for the [[creation science]] article (and I'm sure a few others). The article itself is usually fine, as critism and supporting arguments have their own sections, but the intro has been causing a lot of problems. Is this template documented? -- [[User:Ec5618|Ec5618]] 11:08, August 12, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Redirect''' both to [[Template:POV-section]]. Good idea but redundant. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<span style="color:orange;">&gt;|&lt;</span>]] 12:53, August 12, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''' - and use more widely. The intro is often the most contentious section, and a template that makes that crystal clear is very useful. The "section" version is not clear enough, IMO, when used to refer to an intro (people may not be clear about what it's referring to). [[User:Rd232|Rd232]] 13:26, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' and list on [[Wikipedia:Templates]]. Is there also an in-line version of {npov}; like {dubious} is of {accuracy}? [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 19:31, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
**Yes, it exists, that would be [[Template:POV-section]] like I said above. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<span style="color:orange;">&gt;|&lt;</span>]] 00:13, August 14, 2005 (UTC)
***No - put dubious and Pov-section in a page - you'll see the difference. The former is inline, the latter is not - it floats above the line. [[User:Rd232|Rd232]] 22:23, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''del''' per Radiant --[[User:MarSch|MarSch]] 17:20, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
* '''Keep'''. BTW the claim about these being "completely used" simply is not true. I came across this debate though the use of this template on a page. [[User:Jtdirl|<span style="color:#006666;">'''Fear'''</span><span style="color:#FF6600;">'''''ÉIREANN'''''</span>]]\[[user_talk:Jtdirl|<sup style="color:blue;">(caint)</sup>]] 18:01, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' per Rd232. [[User:Robert A West|Robert A West]] 00:47, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' per [[User:Rd232|Rd232]] and [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]]. [[User:DESiegel|DES]] [[User talk:DESiegel|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 01:02, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

<u>Period for comment 12 Aug PM to 26 Aug AM &mdash; 13 days</u>
<u>Removed from TFD 26 August AM &mdash; 13 days</u>

==== [[Template:Sexual_orientation]]====
I propose '''deletion''' for several reasons: One is that this is a topic that, if not seen as inherently POV, at least attracts many POV-warriors. Furthermore, there is no need for this article series box; the subject is hard to reduce to a few articles, and bound to invite heated debates over what should and should not be included. Right now the articles are quite randomly choosen, and that is the improved version -- in the initial one, transgender was listed as a sexual orientation, and the debate on the talk page did not leave the impression that the maker of said template was much willing to discuss that obvious mistake. This is not the first attempt to do an ASB on this (or closely related) topics; see [[Wikipedia:Article series boxes policy (proposed)]] for a discussion of a previous attempt. Much of the criticism applies here, too. -- [[User:AlexR|AlexR]] 13:28, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' - information better served by categories than a template. -- [[User:Francs2000|Francs2000]] | [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Francs2000&action=edit&section=new Talk] [[Image:Flag of the United Kingdom.svg|25px|<nowiki></nowiki>]] 13:30, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
:*There are also a few lists regarding this and similar topics if one wishes for a more ordered reading guide. -- [[User:AlexR|AlexR]] 13:58, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''.  It is a useful navigational tool and provides a fairly compact organization to much of the relevant knowledge.  If important things are missing they should be added and organization improved, not just delete the whole thing.  AlexR, most of your argument seems to boil down to "I don't want to fight about what goes in this template", which is not a good reason to delete it.  Certainly you wouldn't make the argument that we should delete the article on [[homosexuality]] just cause people will fight over it?  Of course there will be disagreements in this area of Wikipedia, can't be helped, but no one is forcing you to participate.  ''Disclaimer:'' After this was listed for deletion, I editted it to make it less huge and slightly more readible.  [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] 14:36, August 12, 2005 (UTC)
**You are misreading my arguments - the "what goes in it" is just one part of the problem; and unlike an article the real estate space in an ASB is very limited. -- [[User:AlexR|AlexR]] 17:54, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
***Well I reread your statement including references to "POV-warriors", "heated debate" and what you perceive as a failed discussion on transgender.  Forgive me, but I still get the impression that you are complaining primarily about the difficulty in getting people to agree.  If you have another argument, could you please try making it a little clearer for me?  Also, how many articles do you think it needs?  There are already 31 links there.  Adding a few more wouldn't hurt, or it could be condensed by linking to list pages covering the appropriate topic, rather than all the pages individually.  Still I don't see deletion as an appropriate solution to what I percieve as a content dispute.  [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] 18:10, August 12, 2005 (UTC)   
****As I already said, I think the very format of an article series box is unsuitable for this subject - and I linked to a page going into more detail already. Subjects as complex as this one are, in my opinon, much better served by lists and categories; hence, ''no'' such ASB is the solution of my choice. (And as can be seen from the article linked above, that is not exactly a position I've only held since yesterday.) And of course the fact that it is an extremely controversial subject does not help, either. Those, however, are two arguments, not one. As for "how many" - that is a pretty irrelevant question. It is ''which'' ones go into that are the problem, not ''how many''. Should - for example - such an ASB try to go from "homosexual and heterosexual", or from "gay and lesbian", or maybe from "androphilia and gynophilia"? Cases can be made for all three apporaches, but if they were put into one ASB that think would drown the article. OTOH, if one approach is choosen, it would be entirely appropriate, and from some points of view even necessary, to make a box for the other two approaches. Not a desireable idea, if you ask me. -- [[User:AlexR|AlexR]] 20:58, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' at least for further discussion. I only created it 4 days ago, and I think the principle of a seriesbox is a useful one. It complements, rather than replaces, categories, because it highlights the ''major'' articles of the topic. Obviously there will be disagreement about what they are, and maybe about what the topic is, which will be handled in the usual Wikipedia way. (I'm mystified by AlexR's comment about my not being willing to discuss the inclusion of transgender; I'd said 3 days ago "Let's see if there are any more comments".) [[User:Rd232|Rd232]] 15:39, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
:*You are? That link very obviously did not belong there, so what was there to wait about? Nevertheless, I, like you (hopefully), waited, and nothing came. So I removed the entry, but actually, this does not make this ASB any more useful.  -- [[User:AlexR|AlexR]] 17:54, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' Regardless of the intentions of the creator, it's bound to end up being used for POV pushing, [[User:Jguk|jguk]] 17:53, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''<s>Categorify and</s> Delete''', doesn't have a linear series to it per [[WP:CSL]]. -[[User:Splash|Splash]] 19:35, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
**Although [[WP:CSL]] is of unclear status, this does not prevent it being used as a reason for a vote. I think that this particular point from CSL is a good one, so my vote stands. -[[User:Splash|Splash]] 17:12, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Categorify and delete'''.  The inherent POV attraction of this template can be seen already.  Here's a question that will be among the first things that's going to attract POV-warriors and trolling:  "Why pink?"  [[User:TShilo12|Tomer]] [[User talk:TShilo12|<sup style="font-size:x-small; color:#129DBC;">TALK</sup>]] 19:39, August 12, 2005 (UTC)
:* The [[:Category:Sexual orientation]] already exists. -- [[User:AlexR|AlexR]] 20:58, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
:* As does [[:Category:LGBT]]. The relationship is far from clear. [[User:Rd232|Rd232]] 09:27, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
*<s>'''Delete''', I like the idea but doesn't fit the rules on [[WP:CSL]]. Changed to '''no vote''' because of below comment. We do, after all, have {{tl|Jews and Judaism sidebar}} and similar. ~~ '''[[User:Nickptar|N]]''' ([[User talk:Nickptar|t]]/[[Special:Contributions/Nickptar|c]]) 01:19, 13 August 2005 (UTC)</s>
*'''What is [[WP:CSL]], Really?'''  I have never heard mention of [[WP:CSL]] before, which is more than a little odd given the number of navigational templates that come through here.  There is no tag for {proposed}, {guideline}, {policy}, etc.  Further there are abundant examples of navigational templates which wouldn't meet the strict linear series rule.  Based on [[Wikipedia_talk:Navigational_templates#Many_navigational_templates_in_violation_of_WP:CSL.2C_what_to_do.3F|this discussion]], it would in fact appear there is little consensus for that part of the guideline anyway.  I am going to bring this issue up at the Village Pump.  [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] 00:54, August 13, 2005 (UTC)
**My comments at the pump are [[Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28policy%29#Categories.2C_lists_and_series_boxes..._but_not_a_policy_in_sight|here]].  [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] 01:36, August 13, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Rename''' ? I don't really know how to do this voting thing. But my vote would be that this is worthy of being kept, but should be renamed to something like 'sexuality' or 'sexual orientation issues'. Because it isn't really about sexual orientation, is it? It's about sexual orientation as it relates to politics and society. If this were about sexual orientation it would contain stuff like "lgpt performers" or "strapons" and stuff. Also, it might make more sense to make this be a separate category page type thing instead of a box that's always hanging there. [[User:Awk|Awk]] 22:59, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Bad idea''' but should be discussed in a more central place. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<span style="color:orange;">&gt;|&lt;</span>]] 00:13, August 14, 2005 (UTC)
* '''Delete.''' &mdash; [[User:Rdsmith4|Dan]] | [[User talk:Rdsmith4|Talk]] 00:45, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
* '''Comment'''. If you do keep this, change the color scheme to something other than pink. To me as a homosexual male that just seems so... stereotypical. :P [[User:Espantajo|Espantajo]] 00:50, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
::Actually, the pink came from the [[marketing]] template it was derived from. I don't mind what colour it is! [[User:Rd232|Rd232]] 22:16, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
* bad title and as a result suboptimal cohesion between included articles. '''Keep''', since those are not reasons for deletion as long as it is used. --[[User:MarSch|MarSch]] 17:29, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
* '''Keep'''. It's well used and links to various related topics in just the same way that [[Template:Christianity]] does, for example. I don't see any reason to delete it. — [[User:OwenBlacker|OwenBlacker]] 19:43, August 14, 2005 (UTC)
* '''Keep''', per OwenBlacker. --[[User:Blu Aardvark|Blu Aardvark]] | <sup>[[User_talk:Blu Aardvark|(talk)]] | [[special:contributions/Blu Aardvark|(contribs)]]</sup> 06:33, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
* '''Delete or Rename'''. I generally prefer series boxes above categories, but this one isn't about sexual orientation. It's about homosexuality, with a few token "where does orientation come from" links thrown in, and a link to heterosexuality second to homosexuality. At the very least it should be renamed Template:Homosexuality. It shouldn't exist in its current form at its current location. It could, however, be useful if retooled or shortened. But if it's shortened enough, maybe a category is better, even though I don't like categories. --[[User:Golbez|Golbez]] 08:47, August 15, 2005 (UTC)
::As noted on the talk page, I wasn't sure what the focus of it should be - "sexual orientation" or "homosexuality". I still don't. [[User:Rd232|Rd232]] 22:16, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
* Comment: I don't see a reason for this being deleted? The two given in the nomination text are that it is and/or will attract 'POV warriors' but I do not see that we should be forced to delete anything for that reason, else a whole myriad of other articles should be nominated too, the second reason given was that there are too many potential articles which should and/or could be included, are there any which are actually missing from the template which anyone feels should go in? (or visa-versa?) finally the third reason is that a category is more suited to the job, I don't think this is the case personally, I think ASBs allow the main topics to be navigated to much easier. -- [[User:Joolz|Joolz]] 15:39, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
** Note: My comment was altered ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion&diff=21158985&oldid=21158688#Template:Sexual_orientation]) to include a vote, usually when someone explicitly writes "Comment:" they don't want it to be counted as a vote either way. Since there's likely to be no response to my questions which would satisfy me enough to vote delete, I will vote '''keep'''. -- [[User:Joolz|Joolz]] 16:31, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
* '''Keep''' [[User:Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters|Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters]] 19:32, 2005 August 16 (UTC)
* '''Keep and rename''' to Homosexuality or LGBT, good idea. ~~ '''[[User:Nickptar|N]]''' ([[User talk:Nickptar|t]]/[[Special:Contributions/Nickptar|c]]) 19:37, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
* '''Keep and improve''' as per comments above.  This is just a few days old.  Give it a chance improve.  If after it fully matures, the template clearly does not work as a navigational tool then it can be deleted.  Everything at Wikipedia has the potential for POV abuse.  That is one reason why we all edit and watch pages. -- [[User:SamuelWantman|Samuel Wantman]] 19:56, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
* '''Keep and improve''' per [[User:SamuelWantman|Samuel Wantman]]. [[User:Havok|<span style="font-weight: bold;">Havok</span>]] [[User_talk:Havok|(T]]/[[User:Havok/Contributions|C)]] 16:41, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
* '''Keep'': It directs people to other topics on similar subjects from the same page in a way that categories don't --[[User:Cherry blossom tree|Cherry blossom tree]] 22:45, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Rename''' to [[Template:Homosexuality]]. [[User:Dbiv|David]] | [[User talk:Dbiv|Talk]] 11:09, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Move''' to [[Template:LGBT sidebar]] and lose the pink colour scheme lest this be reported to the [[fashion ]][[police]]. ;) --[[User:Carlb|carlb]] 16:49, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Repurpose''' this template to focus on GLBT/LGBT issues exclusively. This template can and will create serious problems with some heterosexuals and with people who do not support the ideas of sexual orientation.  Not saying it's right, just saying it'll happen.&mdash;[[User:Kbolino|Kbolino]] 01:04, August 22, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep and Improve''' as per '''Samuel Wantman''' [[User:Spaltavian|Spaltavian]] 05:52, August 22, 2005 (UTC)

----

This thread's been going for nearly a fortnight (and the note at the top of this page says seven days for [[Wikipedia:consensus|consensus]]).  Votes thusfar: '''Delete''': 6; '''Keep''': 12; '''Rename''' (inc "Delete or rename" and "keep and rename"): 5.

Looks like there's no consensus to delete, to me, so I'm removing the <code><nowiki>{{tfd}}</nowiki></code> tag. — [[User:OwenBlacker|OwenBlacker]] 13:15, August 24, 2005 (UTC)

<u>Period for comment 12 August PM to 24 August PM &mdash; 12 days</u>
<u>Removed from TFD 25 August AM &mdash 12 days</u>

==== [[Template:Green]]; [[Template:Red]]; [[Template:Blue]]====
I have no idea how many other of these there are, but I have just noticed them cropping up in [[WP:FAC]] and other places.  I think they are as bad as {{tl|object}} and its ilk, which were deleted a few months ago. -- [[User:ALoan|ALoan]] [[User_talk:ALoan|(Talk)]] 16:49, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

* ugly, confusing, don't work right '''delete''' [[User:Mozzerati|Mozzerati]] 19:06, August 12, 2005 (UTC)
**'''keep'''.What is your evidence that {{green|green}} and {{red|red}} and {{blue|blue}} don't work right other than the {tfd}, which will go away again? [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 19:26, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
**I'f your suggesting deletion, please don't give a worthless reason. [[User:Phoenix2|Phoenix]]'''[[User talk:Phoenix2|2]]''' 20:49, August 12, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''.  I've said it before, and I fully expect to say it again.  TFD is not, at least in my opinion, a way to go about regulating user behavior.  If you are offended by colored doodads, then write a style guideline on voting and get consensus approval for it.  However, right now there is nothing wrong with these templates and if someone wants to pretty up user or talk space, I know of no consensus saying it is forbidden.  While we are at it, I noticed that {{tl|Red}} has actually been used in a number of drug-related articles to create red warning tags.  [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] 20:13, August 12, 2005 (UTC)
**'''Comment'''.  I have created {{tl|tfd-inline}} for the purposes of having a TFD template that can fit into the flow of text without breaking it into multiple lines.  Obviously you can see the effect of this on the red, green, and blue mentions by Septentrionalis above.  [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] 20:38, August 12, 2005 (UTC)
***Thanks [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 15:41, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' harmless. [[User:Grue|<span style="background: black;font-family:Courier;color:#FFFFFF;">'''&nbsp;Grue&nbsp;'''</span>]] 20:43, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', not as bad as the other ones we deleted because comments were made that the images increased load times, that argument can't be made here. [[User:Phoenix2|Phoenix]]'''[[User talk:Phoenix2|2]]''' 20:49, August 12, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', useful. ~~ '''[[User:Nickptar|N]]''' ([[User talk:Nickptar|t]]/[[Special:Contributions/Nickptar|c]]) 00:25, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''{{tlx|Tfd-inline|Green.3B_Template:Red.3B_Template:Blue}}<span style="color:green;">Keep</span>''', great fun. [[User:Flowerparty|Flowerparty]] [[User talk:Flowerparty|<sup>talk</sup>]] 02:02, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' oh do come along. [[User:Duncharris|Dunc]]|[[User talk:duncharris|☺]] 13:07, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' it's kinda handy in using the formatting. --[[User:AmrHassan|Amr Hassan]] 13:53, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' useful for those who find them useful. For those who don't, well forget about them. They're doing no harm. [[User:The JPS|The JPS]] 16:06, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Strong keep'''. I agree with [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]].  [[User:ALoan|ALoan]] should have initiated a discussion regarding the behavior to which he/she objects, instead of attempting to eliminate the legitimate means by which said behavior is accomplished.  &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 16:30, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' Whilst overuse of color is bad there are legitimate uses for it and having to write html for it is a pita. [[User:Plugwash|Plugwash]] 22:31, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' and subst, per Plugwash.  If the user is expecting one use for it, they don't want it changing in the future.  It is potentially useful for the non-HTML fluent among us.  I won't use it, but I have no objection to others using it properly (i.e. in relevant situations and with subst:, as the template call is unnecessary). [[User:smoddy|<nowiki>[[smoddy]]</nowiki>]] 23:00, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
**'''Comment''' using subst on templates like this is a double edged sword, on the one hand it reduces server load slightly (yes i know netoholic has been crusading against templates on the basis of a very vauge comment by jamesday but when i actually tried to speak to jamesday about the issue he seemed to ignore my questions as if it wasn't all that significant after all). However subst also dumps the html from the template into the wikitext making it harder to follow. [[User:Plugwash|Plugwash]] 23:08, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
***Wow, I never thought I'd be defending Netoholic. Please read [[WP:AUM]] - Jamesday is likely not answering you because he has lots of things on his hands, and it's been debated to death already. This issue is very real. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<span style="color:orange;">&gt;|&lt;</span>]] 00:13, August 14, 2005 (UTC)
**I have read that page and also its corresponding talk page and some associated revert wars. If the devs really thought this was important don't you think they would have gone through jimbo rather than making fairly vague comments like the one on that page. [[User:Plugwash|Plugwash]] 16:06, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''del''', how lazy can you get? Besides if someone uses a template like this you have to look it up to see what it does, while a simple font-tag is much clearer and cleaner. When programming you also don't make functions for every tidbit, then also don't make a template for every trivial task. It's just stupid. You need only see the font version once to know how it works and if not just keep a copy on your user page. Hey Radiant, don't defend Netoholic and not vote. Defend AND vote. --[[User:MarSch|MarSch]] 17:38, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
**It's less typing, and the meaning is obvious once you look at the page (not the wikitext). ~~ '''[[User:Nickptar|N]]''' ([[User talk:Nickptar|t]]/[[Special:Contributions/Nickptar|c]]) 17:44, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. We shouldn't be colouring text, and definitely not with the font tag. [[User:Ed g2s|<span style="font-family:verdana;">ed g2s</span>]] • [[User talk:ed_g2s|<span style="font-family:verdana;">talk</span>]] 09:19, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. Can't hurt, might help. --[[User:BD2412/deletion debates|<span style="background:lightgreen;">&nbsp;BD2412</span>]] [[User talk:BD2412/deletion debates|<sup><b>talk</b></sup>]] 13:05, August 17, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', someone should put together a list of all the templates for easy reference and add the colors that use 6 digit codes (eg. color="f0f0f0"). Where can we look up these codes, btw? [[User:NoSeptember|<span style="color:green;">'''NoSeptember'''</span>]] 13:26, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', do not use subst: as it obfuscates the source. If you don’t think a particular bit of text should be coloured change it, and if you don’t like the font tag change the templates. [[User:Susvolans|Susvolans]] [[User talk:Susvolans|(pigs can fly)]] 14:05, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' - Not doing any harm. Some may fid it useful. &mdash;[[user:Celestianpower|Cel]][[User:Celestianpower/Esperanza|<span style="color:green;">es</span>]][[User:Celestianpower|tianpower]] <sup>[[user talk:Celestianpower|háblame]]</sup> 20:05, 29 June 2006 (UTC) 12:29, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

<u>Period for comment 12 August PM to 23 August PM &mdash; 11 days</u>
<u>Removed from TFD 25 August AM &mdash; 12 days</u>

====[[Template:Fantasy]]====
A very large navbox, recently created and added to a number of pages. Some of the topics are only rather distantly related to each other, IMO. I question the value of this particular navigation box, and it takes up a lot of space on the articles it is placed on. [[User:DESiegel|DES]] [[User talk:DESiegel|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 23:27, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' (nom) [[User:DESiegel|DES]] [[User talk:DESiegel|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 23:27, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' - Duh.  It can always be improved, made smaller, etc.  As far as questions of its "value" are concerned, it allows for easier navigation through the series on Fantasy.  The general policy here on Wikipedia is to ''improve'' rather than to arbitrarily ''delete''. --[[User:Corvun|Corvun]] 00:10, August 15, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' useful. Improve rather than destruct. [[User:The JPS|The JPS]] 00:07, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Categorify'''. It's a good idea but it's far too big and unwieldy. I'd like a template of about half the current size, and the rest put in a category. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<span style="color:orange;">&gt;|&lt;</span>]] 10:13, August 15, 2005 (UTC)
**'''Comment:'''  That's pretty much the goal.  If you have any ideas about what should stay and what should go, your input would be (greatly!) appreciated on either the template's talk page or the fantasy talk page. --[[User:Corvun|Corvun]] 11:56, August 15, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. Useful; however, trimming the current content to one level of bullets would make it better in my opinion.  The "fantasy authors" and "list of fantasy authors" should be dropped to just "fantasy authors" and that promoted up one level so it remains. [[User:Ceyockey|Courtland]] 01:20, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
**'''Comment:'''  Thanks for the input (and the support!).  For now I've divided the template into "articles" and "categories", with the main articles listed as the series and the categories listed in the same order below.  Even with this redundancy, when this process is finished and everything cleaned up, it should cut the size of the template down by about 75%.
*'''Keep''' and correct if needed. [[User:Halibutt|Halibu]][[User talk:Halibutt|tt]] 16:46, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Weak keep''', still needs trimming.  I personally find vertical navboxes to be intrusive and ugly and prefer horizontal ones at the bottoms of articles, but that's a content issue.  -[[User:Gtrmp|Sean Curtin]] 01:16, August 17, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' I discussed my reasons for suggesting the deletion of this template at some length at [[Template talk:Fantasy#Why suggest deletion?]] with [[User:Corvun|Corvun]], the creator of this tempalte. I urge people here to take a look at that exchange. [[User:DESiegel|DES]] [[User talk:DESiegel|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 05:20, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' Useful.  [[User:CanadianCaesar|CanadianCaesar]] 07:53, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

<u>Period of comment 14 August PM to 17 August AM &mdash; 2 days</u><br>
<u>Removed from TFD 4 September PM &mdash; 22 days</u>

====[[Template:Zelda series]] and [[Template:Mario series]]====
Why do we need these when we have categories? They're huge and useless. [[User:Andrevan|<b style="color:mediumblue;">Andre</b>]] ([[User_talk:Andrevan|<span style="color:royalblue;">talk</span>]]) 04:49, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
*Easy access to Zelda and Mario games. There. -- [[User:A Link to the Past|A Link to the Past]] 04:53, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' --[[User:Corvun|Corvun]] 06:56, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. Useful navigational template, [[User:Sjakkalle|Sjakkalle]] [[User talk:Sjakkalle|<small>(Check!)</small>]] 07:06, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', but change that godawful color!--[[User:Kross|Kross]] 07:11, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', but might I suggest that they are somewhat overly large? Using abbreviations may help, rather than repeating the phrase "super mario world" five times. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<span style="color:orange;">&gt;|&lt;</span>]] 08:35, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. Useful navigational template. It goes at the bottom of the article, so it's not like it's getting in the way of anything important. [[User:Nohat|Nohat]] 08:50, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. Categories can't be organized like these navigational templates can. [[User:BlankVerse|<span style="color:green;">''Blank''</span><span style="color:#F88017;">''Verse''</span>]] [[User talk:BlankVerse|<span style="color:#F660AB;">∅</span>]] 08:52, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. And I've changed the colors to something hopefully less garish. [[User:TheCoffee|Coffee]] 16:38, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. I think the colors are boring now, but there's no good reason to get rid of the template.[[User:Rhindle The Red|Rhindle The Red]] 18:05, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''': I agree on the colors. Is there any way to see the CSS sheets used by wikipedia? ~ [[User:CyberSkull|Dread Lord <span style="color:#FF0000;">C</span><span style="color:#EE0000;">y</span><span style="color:#DD0000;">b</span><span style="color:#CC0000;">e</span><span style="color:#BB0000;">r</span><span style="color:#AA0000;">S</span><span style="color:#990000;">k</span><span style="color:#880000;">u</span><span style="color:#770000;">l</span><span style="color:#660000;">l</span>]] [[User_talk:CyberSkull|✎☠]] 21:56, 2005 August 16 (UTC)
*'''Keep''': Very useful navagation aide.  I don't particularly care about the color much. [[User:Fieari|Fieari]] 22:42, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. I don't see any reason why to delete these. These pretty much ''define'' the purpose of navigational templates. --[[User:Titoxd|Tito]][[User_talk:Titoxd|<span style="color:#008000;">xd</span>]] 07:10, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' Obviously useful.  [[User:CanadianCaesar|CanadianCaesar]] 07:51, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' Useful. <small>[[User:Jtkiefer|<span style="color:#FF9900;">Jtkiefer</span>]] <sup>[[User_talk:Jtkiefer|<span style="color:#00A86B;">T</span>]] | [[Special:Emailuser/Jtkiefer|<span style="color:#FF0033;">@</span>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jtkiefer|<span style="color:#0000FF;">C</span>]]</sup> </small> ----- 09:43, August 17, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep.''' Navigational templates are more useful than categories, since they can list entries in the poper order while categories can only do alphabetical order.  [[User:P Ingerson|<nowiki></nowiki>]] &mdash; [[User:P Ingerson|P Ingerson]] [[User talk:P Ingerson|(talk)]] 09:48, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep.''' Very good tool, although it really needs cleaning up to include SMW2:YI and other things [[User:Smoothy|<nowiki></nowiki>]] &mdash; [[User:P Ingerson|P Ingerson]] [[User talk:Smoothy|(talk)]] 13:50, 17 August 2005 (BST)
**Forgot to vote '''Keep'''. Also, Ingerson, Yoshi's Island IS there. -- [[User:A Link to the Past|A Link to the Past]] 14:05, August 17, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' - Very useful. [[User:Havok|<span style="font-weight: bold;">Havok</span>]] [[User_talk:Havok|(T]]/[[User:Havok/Contributions|C)]] 13:20, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' - I don't know how many times i've used this template, but i know its saved me a lot of time searching for various zelda related articles. --[[User:ZeWrestler|<span style="color:green">ZeWrestler</span>]]  [[user talk:ZeWrestler|<sup><span style="color:green">Talk</span></sup>]] 00:14, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' per above. [[User:Flowerparty|<span style="color:#ccdddd;">Flowerparty</span>]] [[User talk:Flowerparty|<sup>talk</sup>]] 01:07, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' - Simple but incredibly useful. Saved me many minutes of typing. [[User:PowerGamer6|PowerGamer6]] 20:28, 19 August 2005 EST
*'''Pwned'''... I mean '''Keep'''. Navigational assistant's despite redundancy only add's to Wikipedias ease of use. - [[User:UnlimitedAccess|UnlimitedAccess]] 15:59, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' without a doubt. Why get rid of something that aids in navigation? [[User:69.250.25.213|69.250.25.213]] 17:59, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' very useful [[User:Hbdragon88|Hbdragon88]] 23:35, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', useful; the Mario and Zelda series are well known and contain lots of games in the franchise --[[User:RealWingus|RealWingus]] 00:07, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. They are good for navigation through the Mario and Zelda series. --[[User:MichTheWeird|MichTheWeird]] 17:02, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep both''', but change that color (Mario) and make the thing smaller (Mario); it dwarfs some of the smaller articles like [[Yoshi Topsy Turvy]]. --[[User:Gakon5|gakon<sup>5</sup>]] [[User_talk:gakon5|(talk)]] 21:23, August 21, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep both''' I've said this before on other template pages, a template for a game series is VERY useful, especially for readers who glance over the categories link.[[User:Amren|Amren]] <small>[[User_talk:Amren|<sup style="color:#63B8FF;">(talk)</sup>]]</small> 20:47, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

<u>Period for comment 16 August to 23 August &mdash; 8 days</u>
<u>Removed from TFD 24 August &mdash; 9 days</u>

====[[Template:OriginalResearch]] (and [[:Category:Original research disputes]])====
''"The novelty of research or terms used in this article is disputed."'' This is a rather obscure (and mostly unused) form of dispute resolution, and we already have far too many confusing variations on {{tl|disputed}}. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<span style="color:orange;">&gt;|&lt;</span>]] 08:53, August 7, 2005 (UTC)
*Seems like a perfectly appropriate way to identify cases of alleged original research.  Also I don't see how it's a form of dispute resolution, since it simply directs users to the talk page.  Thus, unless it actually does overlap with another template, '''keep'''.  -- [[User:Visviva|Visviva]] 13:38, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Redirect'''. The real objection is that it duplicates [[Template:original research]], which is more clearly phrased, and is named more in template style; compare {cfd} which is lower case throughout. But if someone wants to call it OriginalResearch, I have no problem with that. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 18:47, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Redirect'''. This one is too wordy and confusing. &mdash; [[User:Stevey7788|Stevey7788]] ([[User talk:Stevey7788|talk]]) 20:28, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Redirect''' to [[Template:original research]]; there is too much in here that is said more clearly elsewhere.-[[User:Splash|Splash]] 19:23, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

<u>Period for comment 7 August AM to 12 August PM &mdash; 5 days</u>
<u>Removed from TFD 24 August AM &mdash; 17 days</u>

==== [[Template:SOreligiousfreedomATW]]====
*'''Delete'''. This template is massive, containing a link for every country in a world. Most of the links are red and likely to stay red, because we simply don't need a ''Status of religious freedom'' article in countries where it simply isn't article-worthy. It's kinda like having the article [[Involuntary settlements in the Soviet Union]], then having a template with 192 links to ''Involuntary settlements in (country)''. [[User:TheCoffee|Coffee]] 06:10, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Comment:''' The template’s author hasn’t edited in six months. I have removed the red links, leaving the blue. [[User:Susvolans|Susvolans]] [[User talk:Susvolans|(pigs can fly)]] 08:52, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' updated version. --[[User:Blu Aardvark|Blu Aardvark]] | <sup>[[User_talk:Blu Aardvark|(talk)]] | [[special:contributions/Blu Aardvark|(contribs)]]</sup> 21:04, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
* '''Keep'''.  [[User:Eequor|&#8227;<span style="font-size:large;">&#5339;&#5505;</span>]]<span class="venus">[[Image:Venus symbol (blue).gif|&#9792;]]</span>[{{SERVER}}{{localurl:User talk:Eequor}} <span style="font-size:large;">&#5200;</span>] 00:53, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' useful. - [[User:Ta bu shi da yu|Ta bu shi da yu]] 05:02, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' handy. --[[User:AmrHassan|Amr Hassan]] 20:47, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' useful. -- [[User:Karl Meier|Karl Meier]] 10:18, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
*Or '''Replace''' with {{tld|otherarticles}} which wouldn't need updating when a new article is added. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 19:00, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

<u>Period of comment 17 August AM to 26 August PM &mdash; 9 days</u>
<u>Removed from TFD 27 August AM &mdash; 10 days</u>

====[[Template:Major Cities of Tamil Nadu]]====
Very subjective box. People have started including their cities arbitrarily. District headquarters in Tamil Nadu or some such list would be more objective. -- [[User:Sundar|Sundar]] <sup>\[[User talk:Sundar|talk]] \[[Special:Contributions/Sundar|contribs]]</sup> 03:54, August 4, 2005 (UTC)

*'''Comment'''. This might be a good time to [[WP:BB|Be Bold!]] and go ahead and edit the template, and perhaps even rename it. It doesn't sound like a reason to delete the template. [[User:BlankVerse|<span style="color:green;">''Blank''</span><span style="color:#F88017;">''Verse''</span>]] [[User talk:BlankVerse|<span style="color:#F660AB;">∅</span>]] 14:48, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Categorify and delete'''. There's no particular connection (linear series per [[WP:CSL]]) between these that is served better by a template than by a cat. (Or even by both a template and a cat).-[[User:Splash|Splash]] 19:42, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' and '''Move''' to [[Template:Tamil Nadu]].  This looks like the beginnings of a perfectly acceptable navigational template, much like [[Template:New York]] or [[Template:Milwaukee, Wisconsin]] --[[User:BaronLarf|Baron]][[User talk:BaronLarf|Larf]] 17:07, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

<u>Period for comment 4 August AM to 10 August PM &mdash; 6 days</u>
<u>Removed from TFD 12 August PM &mdash; 8 days</u>

====[[Template:Lynch]]====
Another director template, same reasons as the previous directors templates see the [[Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/Deleted#Template:Kubrick_.26_Template:Alfred_Hitchcock.27s_films_.26_Template:Steven_Spielberg.27s_films|previous discussion here]].  '''Categorize and delete'''. [[Special:Contributions/Who|<span style="color:#FF0033;">∞</span>]][[User:Who|Who]][[User talk:Who|<span style="color:#00Ff00;">?</span><span style="color:#FF00FF;">¿</span><span style="color:#0033FF;">?</span>]] 18:50, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Strong Keep!'''. I've used the same argument every time a template for a major film director has come up (and will keep using it). Many of the average vistors to the Wikipedia who will look at one film by a director will also want to look up one or more other films by the same director. Instead of forcing that to be a two step process (either going to a category or to the director's main page), it is much easier to work with a well-designed navigation template. [[User:BlankVerse|<span style="color:green;">''Blank''</span><span style="color:#F88017;">''Verse''</span>]] [[User talk:BlankVerse|<span style="color:#F660AB;">∅</span>]] 12:57, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
*<s>'''Delete''' for consistency. I very much agree with BlankVerse, and the deletion of the other templates does decrease the wiki's navagational functionality. However, if we are voting on this template, there is no reason why Lynch should have one if Spielberg, Hitch and Kubrick are denied one. [[User:The JPS|The JPS]] 13:25, 3 August 2005 (UTC)</s> '''Keep''' pending advanced discussion. [[User:The JPS|The JPS]] 17:57, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' Same reson as for the shark template below, interesting that BlankVerse has a strong keep for this and a delete for the shark one. The only different is that there are 350+ species of sharks, but there will never be that many wikipedia articles. I think we need to do something about nav templates, as it is now this is very chaotic and non consistant, I suggest to implement a list of related articles that can be under the 'in other languages' box. Then it will not take much space and can be much longer than a nav template today. Not sure if it can be done with wikimedia today, I asked at [[Wikipedia:Bug_report]], no answer yet. [[User:Stefan|Stefan]] 04:14, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Strong Keep'''  For better overview and navigation. --[[User:ThomasK|ThomasK]] 09:20, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
**'''Comment''': There needs to be some policy on director's templates. The wiki should be consistent, and this template shouldn't be kept if Hitch et. al. were deleted. Again, I vehemently agree with the keep votes. [[User:The JPS|The JPS]] 15:48, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Very Strong Keep''' For ThomasK's reasons and the fact that any sort of easy-to-read template always makes the wiki more user-friendly and presents information immediately.  I also urge very, very strongly to reinstate the other deleted director templates, which I felt were very helpful and I was shocked to see them go.  It's a shame we have people who actually think that making the wiki less legible is a good idea.  KEEP THESE TEMPLATES!!! [[User:Gsgeorge|Gsgeorge]] 16:23, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Conditional delete'''. While I'm unhappy that useful director templates keep being deleted, it's unfair if this template stays and other director templates go. Either delete this template or undelete Spielberg, Hitchcock et al. --[[User:Titoxd|Titoxd]] 22:52, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
**This is a problem, yes. This TFD has generated quite an interest for the 'keep' camp, and it might be worth continuing it elsewhere to achieve some sort of consistency. Hopefully we can get the other templates reinstated, and the deletionists/anti-template brigade will leave us alone. [[User:The JPS|The JPS]] 23:04, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' as per Hitch, Spielberg, etc  [[User:Jeff Watts|JW]] 22:53, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Stong Keep'''.  The template aids in user naviagation, conveys information and is compact. "Consistency" can not be a reason to delete this template, since the other director template have only been remove recently, and discussion has only just begun. --[[User:Commander Keane|Commander Keane]] 06:43, August 6, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Categorify and delete''' for consistency and easier navigating. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<span style="color:orange;">&gt;|&lt;</span>]] 16:55, August 6, 2005 (UTC)
**Clicking an additional link each time a user wants to switch articles is meant to be easier? Keep the category too: we should maximise the wiki's capabilities. The consistency argument (to which I was a subcriber) is redundant now that there are more keep participants (for a possible undelete and wider policy discussion) [[User:The JPS|The JPS]] 17:14, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
:'''Keep'''. The "director" templates are useful; it was wrong to delete the others and they should be brought back. [[User:Atlant|Atlant]] 23:12, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. I can't believe this discuission is even happening. Like all the director templates, this is very useful and hurts nobody. If we're worried about space, just make it horizontal instead of vertical. The deletion of the other director templates was absurd, too. [[User:The Singing Badger|The Singing Badger]] 16:29, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

<u>Period for comment 2 August PM to 9 August PM &mdash; 7 days</u>
<u>Removed from TFD 10 August PM &mdash; 8 days</u>

====[[Template:NMGovernors]]====
Why is this needed? Many of the pages don't even exist that are listed in the template. --[[User:WikiFan04|WikiFan04]]<sup>[[User_talk:WikiFan04|Talk]] 3:11, 3 Aug 2005 (CDT)</sup>
*'''Delete''' and listify, would suffice.  [[Special:Contributions/Who|<span style="color:#FF0033;">∞</span>]][[User:Who|Who]][[User talk:Who|<span style="color:#00Ff00;">?</span><span style="color:#FF00FF;">¿</span><span style="color:#0033FF;">?</span>]] 08:20, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''--[[User:BaronLarf|Baron]][[User talk:BaronLarf|Larf]] 00:17, August 9, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Very Strong Keep''' [[User:Jack Cox|Jack Cox]] 02:34, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete and Listify''' replace with {sucessionBox} which would link to list. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 02:44, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

<u>Period for comment 3 August AM to 10 August AM &mdash; 7 days</u>
<u>Removed from TFD 10 August PM &mdash; 7 days</u>

==== [[Template:Seemain]] and [[Template:SeeMain]] ====
'''Note: Voting suspended.'''  ''This is a cleanup of a redirected template.  It has been discovered that redirected templates can not be identified as orphans through "What links here".  The TfD process has to be altered before redirected templates can be deleted.''
*'''Delete''': Redirected in earlier TfD, has now been orphaned except for some Talk and User pages. [[User:SEWilco|SEWilco]] 01:50, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' [[User:Stbalbach|Stbalbach]] 02:04, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. [[Template:main]], or even better, [[template:see details]] is enough I think. This one seems to imply some kind of hierarchy on Wikipedia. [[User:Oleg Alexandrov|Oleg Alexandrov]] 02:58, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
:* Note that the definition of [[Template:main]] was changed today. [[Template_talk:Main#Template_usage_changed]] [[User:SEWilco|SEWilco]] 04:32, 14 August 2005 (UTC))
::* Note that this [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ATemplate_messages%2FLinks&diff=20959588&oldid=20484714 change] was made by the original author (of both the template and the description) as a correction of a typographical error.  The new wording reflects both the creator's [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template_talk%3ASee_details&diff=20955295&oldid=20946446 original intention] and the tag's overwhelmingly popular application.  &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 04:45, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep Redirected'''.  The cat is most decidely out of the bag, and redirects are cheap.  Many people have learned to go looking for {{tl|seemain}} when they mean {{tl|main}} and it is too much trouble with very little benefit to try and cure everyone of this confusion.  [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] 06:02, August 14, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Comment''': Despite the nominator's claim to the contrary, {{tl|seemain}} had '''''not''''' been orphaned.  I just removed it from nineteen articles, many of which are extremely prominent: [[Creationism]], [[Final Fantasy airships]], [[Gautama Buddha]], [[Germany]], [[Homosexuality]], [[Human]], [[Kashmir]], [[The Legend of Zelda series enemies]], [[Malaysia]], [[Napoleon I of France]], [[National Basketball Association]], [[New Zealand]], [[Portland, Oregon]], [[Races of Final Fantasy]], [[Slavery]], [[Tutankhamun]], [[United States]], [[Wikipedia]] and [[WWE SmackDown! (video game)]].  &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 07:03, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
:*'''Comment''': None of those articles appear in [[Special:Whatlinkshere&target=Template%3ASeemain]], which is only showing discussion and User pages that the bot ignored. ([[User:SEWilco|SEWilco]] 18:42, 14 August 2005 (UTC))
:::As stated above, I removed the template from all nineteen of those articles.  &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 18:55, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
:*'''Comment''': I suspect Whatlinkshere entries for a redirected template are created in the target template, thus Whatlinkshere:main probably contains some ''seemain'' references.  The TfD vote can continue, this problem merely means that all cleanup deletions of redirected templates have to deal with such technical issues.  ([[User:SEWilco|SEWilco]] 19:09, 14 August 2005 (UTC))
:::Last night, when the nineteen articles in question were listed on the "Whatlinkshere" page, {{tl|seemain}} was '''''not''''' a redirect; it contained the TfD notice.  As [[User:Radiant!|Radiant]] indicated, three of the titles ([[Germany]], [[Human]] and [[New Zealand]]) appeared when users made unrelated edits to the corresponding articles (after I first viewed the "Whatlinkshere" page and began removing the template).  &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 19:46, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
::::Right.  A Redirect page does not allow the TfD template, so the apparently-orphaned redirect was replaced with the TfD template.  When I reported the templates were orphans those articles were not in Whatlinkshere:Seemain, and appeared when edited after the TfD notice replaced the redirect.  ([[User:SEWilco|SEWilco]] 20:34, 14 August 2005 (UTC))
:::::I'm aware of the above.  I meant that the redirect couldn't have been the cause of the glitch.  &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 00:28, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
:Along the way, I discovered the existence of ten additional templates that belong to this set: {{tl|seemain2}}, {{tl|seemain3}}, {{tl|seemain4}}, {{tl|seemain5}}, {{tl|seemain6}}, {{tl|seemain7}}, {{tl|seemain8}}, {{tl|seemain9}}, {{tl|seemain10}} and {{tl|seemain20}}.  &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 06:20, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
::For whatever reason, articles containing {{tl|seemain}} continue to appear on the list (without anyone adding the template).  For the time being (until this problem has been resolved), I've restored the redirect.  (And if you really stop to think about it, a TfD message in an orphaned template serves little purpose.)  &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 07:03, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
::: What "list"? ([[User:SEWilco|SEWilco]] 18:42, 14 August 2005 (UTC))
:::: I was referring to [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Whatlinkshere/Template:Seemain this list].  &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 18:55, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
::::: I see.  The articles which showed in Whatlinksher:Seemain were those which were edited after the TfD notice replaced the redirect.  ([[User:SEWilco|SEWilco]] 20:34, 14 August 2005 (UTC))
*'''Delete''' those extra templates #2-#20; where did those come from anyway? As for the first one, I have no objection to the '''redirect'''. Templates sometimes get a longer 'whatlinkshere' when articles containing them are 'touched', so for an oft-used template it's not necessarily possible to find all links to it. Try using google as an alternate method.
[[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<span style="color:orange;">&gt;|&lt;</span>]] 08:29, August 14, 2005 (UTC)
:*'''Comment''': The extra templates 2-20 are for multiple references, and will be converted later thus are not part of this TfD.  ([[User:SEWilco|SEWilco]] 18:42, 14 August 2005 (UTC))
:::As noted below, the numbered templates (excepting {{tl|seemain2}}) are extraneous.  &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 18:55, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' {seemain} and at least 2 through 4 of the others. Useful, and easier to maintain than typing in the same italicized sentence all the time. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 16:31, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Redirect''' {{tl|seemain}} and {{tl|seeMain}} to {{tl|main}}; '''redirect''' {{tl|seemain2}} to {{tl|main2}}; '''delete''' all of the other numbered templates (which are extraneous, because {{tl|main2}} can link to any plural quantity of articles). &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 17:52, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' or '''Redirect''' everything including {{tl|see details}} to {{tl|main}}.  [[User:Vegaswikian|Vegaswikian]] 19:28, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' {{tl|main2}} (I think it was easier to put this vote as an entry given the number of templates being discussed here, I am not voting twice.) [[User:Vegaswikian|Vegaswikian]] 19:28, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' [[User:The JPS|The JPS]] 11:18, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' but delete all those starting from {{tl|seemain3}}. We need a template for the plural form. The rest can be done by using <nowiki>{{seemain2|Foo1|Foo2]], [[Foo3]], [[Foo4}}. </nowiki>&mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 11:13, August 25, 2005 (UTC)
::The numbered variants have been [[Wikipedia:Templates for deletion#Numbered Seemain series|listed separately]].  &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 14:36, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

<u>Period of comment 14 August AM to 25 August PM &mdash; 11 days</u><br>
<u>Removed from TFD 1 September AM &mdash; 18 days</u>

====[[Template:Abuse]]====
'''Delete, categorize, and Listify''': Another large incomplete navbox. I suppose it is appropriate to its contents that it is also uncommonly bleak, but it is still unneccessary. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 19:33, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
* '''Keep.''' &mdash; [[User:Xiong|Xiong]][[Special:Emailuser/Xiong|<span style="color:#997749;">熊</span>]][[User talk:Xiong|talk]][[Wikipedia:Deletion reform|<span style="color:#009900;">*</span>]] 02:12, 2005 August 18 (UTC)
* '''Keep.''' &mdash; My message to the user Septentrionalis. Do not '''[[abuse]]''' your wiki-'''rights''' (one of them being the right to nominate a template for deletion) which you did '''[[abuse]]''' by ignoring your wiki-'''obligations''' (one of them being the obligation to '''[[RTFM|RTF-M]]''' - here specifically [[Wikipedia:Templates for deletion#Deletion criteria|'''-DC'''=Deletion Criteria]])'''.''' If you have not noticed yet, the incompleteness and bleakness criteria are not listed as valid critera for a template deletion'''.''' [[User:SloContributorSince2005|SorryButAnAbuseMakesMeReallyMad]]  08:43, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
* '''Keep'''. ~~ '''[[User:Nickptar|N]]''' ([[User talk:Nickptar|t]]/[[Special:Contributions/Nickptar|c]]) 23:35, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' [[User:CanadianCaesar|CanadianCaesar]] 04:47, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''delete/modify''' Present state pretty POV - execution should perhaps not be listed\, check others [[User:Daemon8666|Daemon8666]] 17:52, August 22, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' or at least '''modify''' as Daemon8666 said above. A long with execution, I don't think [[spying]] belongs on there. [[User:Evil Monkey|Evil Monkey]]∴[[User talk:Evil Monkey|Hello]] 22:55, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''.  Certainly useful, even if it does need some thought as to which articles warrant inclusion.  [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] 23:03, August 22, 2005 (UTC)

<u>Period of comment 16 August PM to 22 August PM &mdash; 6 days</u>
<u>Removed from TFD 23 August PM &mdash; 7 days</u>

==== [[Template:13colonies]] ====
This might be useful, if most of the names were not wrong, thus disseminating misinformation. See the number of redirects in the template. Attempt to make a template do the work of a category.
*'''Keep''', why don't you just fix the errors instead of asking to have it deleted?
05:06, 21 August 2005 (UTC) 
*'''Delete''', replace with [[Template:otherarticles]]  Nominator vote. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 02:46, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. Didn't see any redirects in the template, and even if there were I would have edited it.  I also think new users and readers find templates easier than categories, so, useful.  [[User:CanadianCaesar|CanadianCaesar]] 02:54, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. The "wrong" names are an attempt to simplify the issue. The complicated issues are discussed in the articles and if you are dissatisified with the discussion, please feel free to amend. A useful bunching of topics. Templates and categories can overlap. It's not a crime. Creator vote. [[User:Jengod|jengod]] 06:40, August 18, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. It looks boring, but it provides a useful array of related items on a given theme. --[[User:Eoghanacht|Eoghanacht]] 12:38, 2005 August 18 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''.  I see no problem having this template.  No different in function than [[Template:United States]]. --[[user:tomf688|<span style="font-size:small; font-family:garamond; color:#3979BF;">tomf688</span>]]<sup><[[User talk:Tomf688|TALK]]></sup> 14:39, August 18, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''.  VFD is not the place to resolve issues with the content of articles, neither is TFD for resolving a disagreement with the way things are named in a template.  [[User:TShilo12|Tomer]] [[User talk:TShilo12|<sup style="font-size:x-small; color:#129DBC;">TALK</sup>]] 20:14, August 18, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. &mdash; [[User:Stevey7788|Stevey7788]] ([[User talk:Stevey7788|talk]]) 22:46, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. TFD is not cleanup. If it's wrong, then by all means, please fix it. [[User:Firebug|Firebug]] 00:26, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' per Firebug. --[[User:WikiFan04|WikiFan04]]<sup>[[User_talk:WikiFan04|Talk]] 23:00, 25 Aug 2005 (CDT)</sup>
*'''Keep'''. I agree with Eoghanacht's statement.{{spaced ndash}}[[User:Friejose|Friejose]] 19:12, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' - for reasons above.--[[User:Bquanta|ben dummett]] 12:31, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

<u>Period of comment 18 August AM to 29 August PM &mdash; 11 days</u><br>
<u>Removed from TFD 30 August AM &mdash; 12 days</u>

====[[Template:anti-war]]====
Clearly and un-needed/un-wanted template designed entirely for POV pushing, Censorship, and Trolling, has appeared on dozens of un-related articles, and clearly must be deleted--[[User:64.12.116.6|64.12.116.6]] 14:50, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. See [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Anti-war]] for an explanation of this NPOV wikiproject. [[User:Dbiv|David]] | [[User talk:Dbiv|Talk]] 15:59, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. I put it their. I have tryed to cearfully set up [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Anti-war]] to be a NPOV project. Can you give some evidence of ''POV pushing, Censorship, and Trolling''? I belive that all the articles the template appears on are related by being about anit-war movments or ideas.--[[User:JK the unwise|JK the unwise]] 16:16, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Speedy keep''' as bad-faith nomination. --[[User:Carnildo|Carnildo]] 18:16, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
*<S>'''Delete''' Wikipedia is not a place for free speech or discussion. [[User:Agriculture|Agriculture]] 18:18, 18 August 2005 (UTC)</S> '''Keep''' Wikipedia may not be a palce for free speech and discussion, but it should be. [[User:Agriculture|Agriculture]] 18:32, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''.  As I mentioned on [[Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/WikiProject Anti-war]], "It is entirely possible to keep a NPOV while writing about peace groups and the movement in general. Additionally, some of the material being covered is historic in nature, like those articles dealing with Vietnam."  [[User:Schuminweb|Schuminweb]] 18:24, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Speedy keey''' per [[User:Carnildo|Carnildo]]. --[[User:Ngb|Ngb]] 18:51, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' - although the POV pushing part might be slightly possible. &mdash; [[User:Stevey7788|Stevey7788]] ([[User talk:Stevey7788|talk]]) 22:45, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' in agreement with the ability to discuss opposition to war in an NPOV manner.  Further, the identity of the nominator is hidden as the IP address is an AOL multi-user address.  Anything nominated anonymously should be removed from here by an admin immediately, just as anonymous or unsigned votes are to be ignored in the consideration of whether or not to delete an item. [[User:Ceyockey|Courtland]] 01:02, August 20, 2005 (UTC)
**But not an unsigned or anonymous nomination. -[[User:Splash|Splash]] 06:41, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' the charges made in the nomination don't seem to bear scrutiny. -[[User:Splash|Splash]] 06:41, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', having ''presumed'' that purpose is to inform, not persuade.  (To make this clear to casual observer, I might [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Anti-war&oldid=21574195#POV_concerns suggest renaming the project]). &mdash; <b><i>[[User:Freakofnurture/|<span style="color:#006000;" title="User:Freakofnurture">F<small>REAK OF</small> N<small>UR<sub>x</sub>TURE</small></span>]]</i> <small>(<span class="plainlinks">[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Freakofnurture&action=edit&section=new <span style="color:#006000;" title="User talk:Freakofnurture">TALK</span>]</span>)</small></b> 14:48, August 22, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Speedy Keep''' --[[User:Revolución|Revolución]] ''([[User talk:Revolución|talk]])'' 22:11, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

<u>Period of comment 18 August PM to 29 August PM &mdash; 11 days</u><br>
<u>Removed from TFD 30 August AM &mdash; 11 days</u>

==== [[Template:Ludwig van Beethoven]]====
'''Delete''': The point of this template appears to be easy navigation between articles about Beethoven. I don't think it helps particularly, though, for a number of reasons. The list of works calls for completion in order to be useful (because a bagatelle and two piano sonatas--in addition to the symphonies, of course--hardly deserve their own little template), which would not only be quite too huge for a template, but also already available in its right place ([[List of works by Beethoven]]). Listing the symphonies alone might serve a purpose for navigation, admittedly, though, but only marginally. The other articles (i.e. those not about individual works) are all linked from the appropriate section of the main page, like they should be, and as should be enough. [[User:EldKatt|EldKatt]] <small>([[User talk:EldKatt|Talk]])</small> 19:54, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''keep''': I think this is very useful. I have taken the liberty of adding [[List of works by Beethoven]] to the template, though. If we keep the template, we should probably find a few more of his most prominent compositions to include. --[[User:Arcadian|Arcadian]] 20:35, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' But probably remove the works other than the symphonies. Certainly the current selection is poor. [[User:82.35.34.11|82.35.34.11]] 01:50, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', but be merciless in deciding which works get onto the template. It might thus be necessary to junk the template at a later time if such agreement simply cannot be reached. -[[User:Splash|Splash]] 06:41, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Comment''': I should've clarified this in my original proposal, but I'm only opposed to this template as a general Beethoven-related template, which would be POV-prone and hard to manage, since it can't be exhaustive. I'm quite positive to a specific "Beethoven symphonies" template (and "Beethoven piano sonatas", "Beethoven string quartets" etc, for that matter), though, which seems like a plausible result of the consensus so far. But I very much doubt the possibility of agreeing on a set of notable works for a template like this. Personally, I certainly wouldn't list Für Elise, for example, but I'm sure this would meet some disagreement, by virtue of it being such a famous little piece.  [[User:EldKatt|EldKatt]] <small>([[User talk:EldKatt|Talk]])</small> 12:10, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''':  I find EldKatt's argument completely convincing.  There are so many famous works, and we couldn't possibly fit them all in a template of reasonable size.  [[User:Opus33|Opus33]] 16:02, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' - I find this to be a useful template --[[User:ZeWrestler|<span style="color:green">ZeWrestler</span>]]  [[user talk:ZeWrestler|<sup><span style="color:green">Talk</span></sup>]] 16:10, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' - I'm convinced by EldKatt; Arcadian wants "more prominent compositions", but a huge number of Beethoven's works are prominent; I think it would save time to modify Splash's proposal: be merciless and delete.  FYI: I created the Beethoven string quartets and Beethoven piano sonatas templates.  The only reason I think they are a good idea is because musicians refer to them by opus number: "Piano Sonata No. 21" is mostly known as "Op. 53" or "The Waldstein", and "String quartet No. 7" as "Op. 59 No. 1" or "Rasumovsky No. 1", so the template really does aid navigation.  I would not oppose a "Beethoven symphonies" navigation template (although should that include [[Symphony No. 10 (Beethoven/Cooper)]]?) although I see less of a case for that since the numbering of the symphonies is simpler.  I think the template under discussion here is unnecessarily trying to do the impossible.  --[[User:RobertG|RobertG]] ♬ [[User talk:RobertG|talk]] 14:39, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', since it would be unmanageable to have ''all'' Beethoven's works in this template, and that would be the ''only'' reasonable way to proceed with it.  I strongly support the idea of templates for subsets of his compositions, and Robert is right about the works being referred to by opus numbers ("hey, wanna get together tonight and play opus 131?" -- that's the way musicians refer to Beethoven's pieces).  For completeness and consistency -- though I'm aware of the threat of Emerson's hobgoblins -- we could have templates for symphonies, concertos, incidental music, variations, and anything else by B.  [[User:Antandrus|Antandrus ]] [[User_talk:Antandrus|(talk)]] 15:10, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

<u>Period of comment 18 August PM to 25 August PM &mdash; 7 days</u><br>
<u>Removed from TFD 31 August AM &mdash; 13 days</u>

==== [[Template:Hide]]====
'''Note''': The content of this template is invisible, the source code is
:<nowiki><div style="visibility:hidden; position:absolute;">{{{1}}}</div></nowiki>
*'''Delete''': Unused, useless. --[[User:Quuxplusone|Quuxplusone]] 04:42, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' in agreement with the above. -[[User:Splash|Splash]] 06:43, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
*I suspect this is an attempt to create a template to be used in templates that produce conditional output (I created a template of the same name some time ago, which was deleted last April).  I'll ask the user who created the template about this, but there seem to be some others (which, no doubt, didn't work either), specifically [[Template:/div=True]] and [[Template:Canadian City/Disable Field=True]]. -- [[user:Rick Block|Rick Block]] <small>([[user talk:Rick Block|talk]])</small> 17:05, August 20, 2005 (UTC)
::It turns out [[Template:Canadian City/Disable Field=True]] does work, and is used in [[Template:Canadian City]] (and has essentially the same content as [[Template:hide]]).  Before closing this vote I suggest we wait for comments from the template's creator ([[User:BCKILLa]] - no edits since [[August 7]]).  It may well be that [[Template:Hide]] is meant to serve as a less obscurely named pattern for similar templates (in which case, the other same-content templates could redirect to it). -- [[user:Rick Block|Rick Block]] <small>([[user talk:Rick Block|talk]])</small> 16:42, August 21, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Comment'''. A template by this name has been deleted once before. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=delete&user=&page=Template%3AHide]. --[[User:Blu Aardvark|Blu Aardvark]] | <sup>[[User_talk:Blu Aardvark|(talk)]] | [[special:contributions/Blu Aardvark|(contribs)]]</sup> 06:43, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''delete''' useless and introduces potential for serious browser incompatibility.  Note, there is an alternative, [[Template talk:inote|inote]] which does the same thing in a different way, just leaving an HTML comment, and which is used for invisible references in text.  [[User:Mozzerati|Mozzerati]]
::Although the local effect is similar, [[template:inote]] has a completely different function.  The use of [[Template:Hide]] (or [[Template:Canadian City/Disable Field=True]]) is to conditionally suppress some part of the output of a template.  For example, [[Template:Canadian City]] has a parameter ''Motto'' which usually appears following a label (''[[Motto]]:''), see for example [[Calgary, Alberta]].  For cities lacking a motto, the label can be suppressed by adding a parameter ''Disable Motto Link'' (with the value True), see for example [[Burlington, Ontario]].  The "normal" ouput (without the suppression parameter specified) is of the form <code><nowiki><div style="visibility:hidden;">weird junk with curly braces</div>[[Motto]]:</div></nowiki></code> (so the div makes the weird junk invisible, but note the second close div in this case is unmatched).  With the suppression parameter set to true, the "weird junk with curly braces" turns out to be an invocation of a template like [[Template:Hide]] which expands into another <nowiki><div></nowiki> matching the first close div.  This makes the initial div apply to the ''[[Motto]]:'' label, making it invisible.  One advantage of this approach is that if there's ever if-then-else syntax added to templates, the invoking template can be fixed without requiring any changes to any of its references. HTML comments do not nest, so there's no way using HTML comments to do precisely the same thing.  This is an extremely clever workaround to a limitation of the existing implementation of templates.  We could perhaps argue this is too clever, but I'm not aware of any policy prohibiting (nor even discouraging) excessive cleverness in templates. -- [[user:Rick Block|Rick Block]] <small>([[user talk:Rick Block|talk]])</small> 16:42, August 21, 2005 (UTC)
:::Neat.  This explanation or something similar should appear at [[Template talk:Hide]], though. --[[User:Mysidia|Mysidia]] ([[User_talk:Mysidia|talk]]) 02:40, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' based on Rick Block, though I tend to agree with the excessive cleverness.  Once pages start looking like programming code instead of text many editors shy away. [[User:SchmuckyTheCat|SchmuckyTheCat]] 21:47, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

<u>Period of comment 19 August AM to 27 August PM &mdash; 8 days</u><br>
<u>Removed from TFD 1 September AM &mdash; 13 days</u>

====[[Template:Ccm]]====
''Due to a delay in notification, voting (which began on August 9) has been extended.''

Template was suggested 17 July but no interest/response to develop and not adequate as is - based on music genre template [[User:Paul foord|Paul foord]] 14:07, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' Looks good to me; if it needs to develop, let's develop it, not delete it.  --[[User:BaronLarf|Baron]][[User talk:BaronLarf|Larf]] 01:24, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep and develop''' - as per what Baron Larf said. [[User:Halibutt|Halibu]][[User talk:Halibutt|tt]] 13:14, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', valid infobox type thingy, needs development. [[User:Alphax|Alphax]]&nbsp;<sup>[[User talk:Alphax|τ]][[Special:Emailuser/Alphax|ε]][[Special:Contributions/Alphax|χ]]</sup> 14:24, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' - excellent template. &mdash; [[User:Stevey7788|Stevey7788]] ([[User talk:Stevey7788|talk]]) 23:04, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', if noone expressed any interest in using it, why have it hanging around? In the end, it will just be replaced by a redesign if someone wants such an infobox and the signs would seem to be that they don't. -[[User:Splash|Splash]] 19:29, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
*Keep - now being used [[User:Paul foord|Paul foord]] 06:09, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''keep''', used --[[User:MarSch|MarSch]] 17:12, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', for the reasons cited above.  &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 17:50, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''keep''' ditto. [[User:Jtdirl|<span style="color:#006666;">'''Fear'''</span><span style="color:#FF6600;">'''''ÉIREANN'''''</span>]]\[[user_talk:Jtdirl|<sup style="color:blue;">(caint)</sup>]] 20:05, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. I don't see how it can be developed to a useful enough standard to become a great template on its proposed subject. For example, how useful is it to point out those three ''typical'' instruments? If each pointed to an article such as "the drum in Christian music" then that would be a different matter, but I don't foresee those as realistic articles. It seems to me that a better solution would be to have one article on Christian Music and put the info in the article, with the instruments wikified as normal, and a ''see also'' at the bottom. Quite how ''Rock n Roll'' and ''Hip Hop'' justify places in a Christian Music template (again, without links to more specific articles, such as ''Christian Hop Hop'') I fail to see. It's essentially a collection of bemusing links that completely fail to deliver a satisfying navigational theme. --[[User:Bodnotbod|bodnotbod]] 11:56, September 3, 2005 (UTC)
:Some points made here don't seem to reflect the contents of the template - under the fusion head are links to the [[Christian rock]], [[Christian hip hop]], [[Christian hardcore]], etc. articles. May point to value of redesign but article on  [[Christian music]] already exists. Maybe better design called for. [[User:Paul foord|Paul foord]] 13:39, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

<u>Period of comment 9 August to 3 September &mdash; 25 days</u><br>
<u>Removed from TFD 4 September &mdash; 26 days</u>

===={{vanchor|Template:R from CamelCase}}, <s>{{vanchor|Template:R from UN/LOCODE}}</s>, {{vanchor|Template:R from title without diacritics}}, {{vanchor|Template:R to decade}}, {{vanchor|Template:R for convenience}} and {{vanchor|Template:R CamelCase}}====
Apparently I missed some. Same reasoning as below. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<span style="color:orange;">&gt;|&lt;</span>]] 15:30, August 19, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' [[Template:R from title without diacritics]] for the same reason as [[Template:R from misspelling]] - these redirects attract links, but should be kept orphaned.  Also merge [[Template:R from ASCII]] into it. &mdash;[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] [[User talk:Cryptic|(talk)]] 15:52, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
** And I've redirected [[Template:R CamelCase]] to [[Template:R from CamelCase]]; it was just transcluding it. &mdash;[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] [[User talk:Cryptic|(talk)]] 15:52, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' all and nominate individually. [[User:Ceyockey|Courtland]] 00:53, August 20, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' most. I think the point was to track redirects for a maintenance purpose. I dont know who created them, but I use them quite a bit. I think its good to have a category [[:Category:Redirects]] which lists all of them, and they do not interfere with the functioning of the redirect.  [[Special:Contributions/Who|<span style="color:#FF0033;">∞</span>]][[User:Who|Who]][[User talk:Who|<span style="color:#00Ff00;">?</span><span style="color:#FF00FF;">¿</span><span style="color:#0033FF;">?</span>]] 04:47, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
:*Also see: [[Wikipedia:Redirect]] for a better understanding. [[Special:Contributions/Who|<span style="color:#FF0033;">∞</span>]][[User:Who|Who]][[User talk:Who|<span style="color:#00Ff00;">?</span><span style="color:#FF00FF;">¿</span><span style="color:#0033FF;">?</span>]] 04:56, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''del''', templates for categorizing!? Instead simply categorize! No templates needed. --[[User:MarSch|MarSch]] 12:32, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''keep''' redirects are a bit tricky to categorize normally. [[User:DESiegel|DES]] [[User talk:DESiegel|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 02:13, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
*Almost all such redirects are useful, as I said below, but some could be merged. '''merge''':
**{{tl|R for convenience}} with {{tl|R R from shortcut}},
**{{tl|R CamelCase}} with {{tl|R from CamelCase}},
**{{tl|R from title without diacritics}} with {{tl|R from ASCII}}.
:'''Keep''' the rest listed here. -- [[User:Paddu|Paddu]] 19:51, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', with merges as suggested by Paddu. We really do need to explain the use of these better, though... [[User:JesseW|JesseW]] 10:22, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. Helpful to select redirects. It might be worth noting that since creation, these templates worked in at least 3-4 different ways. Initially mainly "Whatlinkshere" worked and the text of the template was displayed below the redirect. Since the most recent Mediawiki version, categorization works (again). Personally I think they are good thing to include when a series of redirects are created by bot, e.g. [[:Category:Redirects from US postal abbreviation|Redirects from US postal abbreviation]]. Later, they can easily be identified.  -- User:Docu
*'''Keep'''  Potentially useful and not being abused. [[User:SchmuckyTheCat|SchmuckyTheCat]] 22:32, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
**'''Comment''' It appears to me that [[User:Instantnood]] has already begun to abuse the {{tl|R for convenience}} in [[The Arts House at the Old Parliament]].--[[User:Huaiwei|Huaiwei]] 11:01, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
***'''Request for Comment''' That accusation requires some explanation. How is the use you mention an example of "abuse" of the template? [[User:Ceyockey|Courtland]] 10:38, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

<u>Period of comment 19 August PM to 30 August AM &mdash; 10 days</u><br>
<u>Removed from TFD 4 September PM &mdash; 15 days</u>

====[[Template:R for as of]]====
Same reasoning as above, except that I was told this was an exception so I'm listing it separately. Its name is somewhat confusing, to say the least. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<span style="color:orange;">&gt;|&lt;</span>]] 12:36, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

:'''Keep''', useful for finding all the [[Wikipedia:as of|as of]] redirects, does not cause any problems. --[[User:CesarB|cesarb]] 16:09, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. I've not needed to use this yet, but I can see it's utility.  In particular, there are terms in biology and medicine and sociology and ''et cetera'' that have changed meaning over the decades or centuries, which would be one application of the template. [[User:Ceyockey|Courtland]] 00:57, August 20, 2005 (UTC)

*'''del''', utterly confusing --[[User:MarSch|MarSch]] 12:24, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''&nbsp;&mdash; how else would you find all the [[Wikipedia:as of|as of]] redirects that are linked to from information that's needed to be kept updated?<sub><small>&nbsp;</small></sub>&mdash;<sub><small>&nbsp;</small></sub>[[User:Pt|Pt]]<sub>&nbsp;[[User_talk:Pt|(T)]]</sub> 08:23, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. See [[Wikipedia:as of|as of]] to know why. -- [[User:Paddu|Paddu]] 19:36, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', and clarify for MarSch's sake.  (It would be easier if e explained what was confusing, though... ;-) ) [[User:JesseW|JesseW]] 09:55, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' even though the name was chosen when the text of the template was visible below the redirect. -- User:Docu
*'''Keep''' convenient to explain as of redirects --[[User:Wikiacc|Wikiacc]] [[User talk:Wikiacc|(talk)]] 00:06, August 31, 2005 (UTC)

<u>Period of comment 19 August PM to 31 August AM &mdash; 11 days</u><br>
<u>Removed from TFD 1 September AM &mdash; 12 days</u>

====[[Template:R from alternate name]] and others====
<small>{{tl|R from abbreviation}}, {{tl|R from alternate spelling}}, {{tl|R for alternate capitalisation}}, {{tl|R from alternate name}}, {{tl|R from alternate language}}, {{tl|R from ASCII}}, {{tl|R from plural}}, {{tl|R from related word}}, {{tl|R with possibilities}}, {{tl|R to disambiguation page}}, {{tl|R from shortcut}}, {{tl|R to sort name}}, {{tl|R from scientific name}}, and associated categories.</small>

I just came across this scheme for categorizing all redirects to clarify what they redirect to. However, in 99% of all cases that should be immediately obvious from the relevant names, and in others the talk pages should suffice. Few people look at redirects anyway, and attempting to templatize and categorize them all is misguided and serves no real purpose. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<span style="color:orange;">&gt;|&lt;</span>]] 12:36, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

: These help clarify the purpose of redirects, and keep editors from mistakenly deleting or changing them.  Unfortunately during some MediaWiki upgrade they stopped displaying on the redirect page.  Is it possible to make them show up again?  ''—[[User:Mzajac |Michael]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Mzajac |Z.]]&nbsp;<small>2005-08-28&nbsp;15:45&nbsp;Z</small>''

* '''R for Remove'''. Also, they use a MediaWiki hack that doesn't quite work in other wikis. - [[User:Sikon|Sikon]] 14:21, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
* '''Merge''' [[Template:R from ASCII]] into [[Template:R from title without diacritics]] above.  No opinion on the others. (And who cares whether they work on other wikis?) &mdash;[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] [[User talk:Cryptic|(talk)]] 15:52, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
** No opinion on &#123;{[[Template:R from CamelCase|R from CamelCase]]}}, &#123;{[[Template:R from UN/LOCODE|R from UN/LOCODE]]}}, &#123;{[[Template:R from title without diacritics|R from title without diacritics]]}}, &#123;{[[Template:R to decade|R to decade]]}}, &#123;{[[Template:R for convenience|R for convenience]]}} or &#123;{[[Template:R CamelCase|R CamelCase]]}} either, except to wonder whether they were omitted intentionally. 15:22, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
***Added now, see above. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<span style="color:orange;">&gt;|&lt;</span>]] 15:30, August 19, 2005 (UTC)
****'''Delete''' these too. - [[User:Sikon|Sikon]] 15:39, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
* '''Delete''' - can't see the point.  [[User:Violetriga|violet/riga]] [[User_talk:violetriga|(t)]] 14:37, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
* '''Keep''' all for now and nominate individually; some I'd vote to delete, some to keep - but I don't want to consider them as a group.  I make liberal use of some of these templates and do see a point to them in the form of descriptive classifications of redirects. [[User:Ceyockey|Courtland]] 00:49, August 20, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' most. I think the point was to track redirects for a maintenance purpose. I dont know who created them, but I use them quite a bit. I think its good to have a category [[:Category:Redirects]] which lists all of them, and they do not interfere with the functioning of the redirect.  [[Special:Contributions/Who|<span style="color:#FF0033;">∞</span>]][[User:Who|Who]][[User talk:Who|<span style="color:#00Ff00;">?</span><span style="color:#FF00FF;">¿</span><span style="color:#0033FF;">?</span>]] 04:48, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
:*Also see: [[Wikipedia:Redirect]] for a better understanding. [[Special:Contributions/Who|<span style="color:#FF0033;">∞</span>]][[User:Who|Who]][[User talk:Who|<span style="color:#00Ff00;">?</span><span style="color:#FF00FF;">¿</span><span style="color:#0033FF;">?</span>]] 04:55, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. I think categorizing these is a good thing, and if a question arises why a redirect is there, and it falls under one of these categories, it provides a good reference point. "Why does is there a redirect? Oh, I see -- its because of _______" [[User:IanManka|IanManka]] 06:50, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
*Comment: It would stop redirects showing up in [[Special:Uncategorizedpages]] wouldn't it? -- [[User:Joolz|Joolz]] 13:37, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
:*Yes it would, which is another good reason to use them.  [[Special:Contributions/Who|<span style="color:#FF0033;">∞</span>]][[User:Who|Who]][[User talk:Who|<span style="color:#00Ff00;">?</span><span style="color:#FF00FF;">¿</span><span style="color:#0033FF;">?</span>]] 16:51, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''del''', templates for categorizing!? Instead simply categorize! No templates needed. --[[User:MarSch|MarSch]] 12:28, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''keep''' redirects are a bit tricky to categorize normally. [[User:DESiegel|DES]] [[User talk:DESiegel|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 02:15, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', although some borderline cases might be better nominated individually.  -[[User:Gtrmp|Sean Curtin]] 04:03, August 22, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' most. For example, it is good to know which are redirects from misspellings, e.g. for people who want to copy Wikipedia or portions of it but would like have it in a context where having entries for misspellings don't make sense, e.g. for a paper version of Wikipedia or portions of it. There are similar arguments about a few other "R from..." templates. A few might be merged, but IMHO voting must be done on those individually. -- [[User:Paddu|Paddu]] 19:30, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
*:OK, so "R from misspelling" is not included here. Replace "misspellings" with "alternative capitalisation" in my comment above. -- [[User:Paddu|Paddu]] 19:34, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' (or replace with a better way) Categorizing redirects is a good thing.  I'd prefer something in the syntax of <nowiki>#REDIRECT</nowiki> inself, but the technique serves to document the reason for the redirect. Redirects have been abused all over the place (speaking as someone who recently decoupled [[feature film]] from [[film]] and [[agricultural subsidy]] from [[agricultural policy]]).  BTW [[feature film]] had been a redirect for over two years...[[User:66.167.137.182|66.167.137.182]] 01:46, 24 August 2005 (UTC).
*'''keep''' appreciate the cleanup effort, but this '''is''' useful and used.  Thanks, Radiant, for providing an opportunity for this demonstration of the consensus to keep these.  Thanks! [[User:JesseW|JesseW]] 09:54, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' as above. -- User:Docu
*'''Keep''', though some of them could be merged. There might be too many to choose from now. --[[User:Kaleissin|Kaleissin]] 20:00:15, 2005-08-25 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', though it would be nice if I could see it on the destination page [[User:TransUtopian|TransUtopian]] 05:33, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

<u>Period of comment August 19 PM to September 2 AM &mdash; 13 days</u><br>
<u>Removed from TFD September 3 AM &mdash; 14 days</u>

====[[Template:R from UN/LOCODE]]====
(insert section to make tfd-link to here work))
*Template:R from UN/LOCODE - '''Keep''' because no reason given by [[User:Radiant!]] that even was so ignorant not to put the tfd tag. How about talking to involved people first? [[User:Tobias Conradi|Tobias Conradi]] [[User_talk:Tobias Conradi|(Talk)]] 21:43, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
:*To be fair, [[User:Radiant!]] gave reasoning in the discussion below this one, and this one is included in the discussion above, as there is no Tfdu template yet (umbrella template like {{tl|Cfdu}} or {{tl|Cfru}}), so this one is just used as a "pointer" for the tfd's.  [[Special:Contributions/Who|<span style="color:#FF0033;">∞</span>]][[User:Who|Who]][[User talk:Who|<span style="color:#00Ff00;">?</span><span style="color:#FF00FF;">¿</span><span style="color:#0033FF;">?</span>]] 16:54, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''del''', templates for categorizing!? Instead simply categorize! No templates needed. --[[User:MarSch|MarSch]] 12:31, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''keep''' redirects are a bit tricky to categorize normally. [[User:DESiegel|DES]] [[User talk:DESiegel|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 02:13, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. Those copying Wikipedia content should be able to prune these kinds of redirects out. -- [[User:Paddu|Paddu]] 19:54, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''keep''' for reasons given above and below. :-) [[User:JesseW|JesseW]] 10:22, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
*Keep as above. -- User:Docu

<u>Period of comment 19 August PM to 24 August PM &mdash; 5 days</u><br>
<u>Removed from TFD 3 September AM &mdash; 14 days</u>

===={{tl|R from misspelling}}====
Same reasoning as below, but I've moved it out since Cryptic makes a good point. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<span style="color:orange;">&gt;|&lt;</span>]] 15:30, August 19, 2005 (UTC)
* '''Keep''' [[Template:R from misspelling|R from misspelling]] at the very least.  Provides a handy list of redirects that should be kept orphaned. &mdash;[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] [[User talk:Cryptic|(talk)]] 14:27, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
* '''Keep'''. This is useful in highlighting common misspellings (which I probably misspelled :) ) and there are cases where someone labels something as an incorrect spelling (can't screw that spelling up) which is actually an alternate name (for instance "canvas" and "canvass", the latter an uncommon correct spelling of certain defintions of the former).  Useful redirect descriptor. [[User:Ceyockey|Courtland]] 00:52, August 20, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''  I think the point was to track redirects for a maintenance purpose. I dont know who created them, but I use them quite a bit. I think its good to have a category [[:Category:Redirects]] which lists all of them, and they do not interfere with the functioning of the redirect.  [[Special:Contributions/Who|<span style="color:#FF0033;">∞</span>]][[User:Who|Who]][[User talk:Who|<span style="color:#00Ff00;">?</span><span style="color:#FF00FF;">¿</span><span style="color:#0033FF;">?</span>]] 04:48, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''del''', templates for categorizing!? Instead simply categorize! No templates needed. --[[User:MarSch|MarSch]] 12:31, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
**A bare category can't duplicate the functionality of [[Special:Whatlinkshere/Template:R from misspelling]]. &mdash;[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] [[User talk:Cryptic|(talk)]] 14:22, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
**''comment'': Meaning, in my opinion, that without the "whatlinkshere" functionality, there's little hope of editing the referring articles to remove the misspelled linkage. [[User:Ceyockey|Courtland]] 14:55, August 21, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. It is good to know which are redirects from misspellings, e.g. for people who want to copy Wikipedia or portions of it but would like have it in a context where having entries for misspellings don't make sense, e.g. for a paper version of Wiikipedia or portions of it. -- [[User:Paddu|Paddu]] 19:39, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''keep''' as per paddu, courtland, etc. [[User:JesseW|JesseW]] 10:22, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' as per Courtland. -- User:docu

<u>Period of comment 19 August PM to 24 August PM &mdash; 5 days</u><br>
<u>Removed from TFD 3 September AM &mdash; 14 days</u>

====[[Template:Vote bar]]====
While this is prettier than [[Template:Vfd votes]] was ([[Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/Deleted/Archive/Feb05#Template:vfd votes|tfd discussion]]), such things were still soundly rejected at [[Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Policy consensus/Regarding tally boxes]]. &mdash;[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] [[User talk:Cryptic|(talk)]] 04:02, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
* '''Keep.'''  I created this.  And if you're not supposed to use it on VfD, it certainly can be useful in other parts of Wikipedia that involve votes, such as simple yes/no polls.  Besides, why do you think "VfD" isn't even in the title of this template?
:Also, now that I've read the policy prohibiting such tally boxes on VfD sub-pages, you should know that I only added the vote bar as an ''ad hoc'' measure, since so many opinions were registered on that VfD subpage that I felt I had to add it, to make it unnecessary for other users and admins to have to read through all those opinions (almost 200 on that particular page) to simply track the ''general scenario''. <span style="border: 2px solid #ba0000;">&nbsp;[[User:Denelson83|Denelson]][[User talk:Denelson83|'''83''']]&nbsp;</span> 06:20, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Strong Keep''' This vote bar has been insanely helpful at [[Wikipedia :Votes for deletion/WikiProject Wikipedians for Decency]]. [[User:Karmafist|Karmafist]] 05:59, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Strong Delete''' See [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion&diff=21481742&oldid=21481727 here] for my reason. --[[User:Mysidia|Mysidia]] ([[User_talk:Mysidia|talk]]) 06:13, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep,''' but I suggest using the template on a case by case basis. [[User:Zscout370|Zscout370]] [[User_talk:Zscout370|(Sound Off)]] 06:25, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
:*Exactly.  It should be used only as an ''ad hoc'' measure. <span style="border: 2px solid #ba0000;">&nbsp;[[User:Denelson83|Denelson]][[User talk:Denelson83|'''83''']]&nbsp;</span> 06:28, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
Speedy deleted. [[WP:NOT|Wikipedia is not a democracy]]. [[User:Kim Bruning|Kim Bruning]] 06:55, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
*<s>'''Unable to comment'''</s>, because [[User:Kim Bruning|Kim Bruning]] speedily deleted the template.  Under which of the [[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion|criteria]] did this qualify, Kim?  &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 10:50, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
*: AFAICT that page does not currently seem to reflect actual practice. :-/ [[User:Kim Bruning|Kim Bruning]] 13:42, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

*Apparently under the criterion that since Wikipedia is not a democracy this template is useless or so. No cause for speedy though methinks. --[[User:MarSch|MarSch]] 12:40, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

I speedied it because it's something that should ''[[WP:NOT|never be used]]'' on wikipedia anyway. But good point: I forget that admin percentages are down relative to all the new folks, so you can't just ask the next guy over to take a look. (So adminship is temporarily a ''big deal'' , Very very annoying :-/). Here's an example of the template in use, <s>and I've left it undeleted so you can pick it apart</s>.

{| width=100% cellspacing=0 style="text-align: center;"
| width=10% style="background-color: #cfc;" | The sky is green: ''114''
| width=114 style="background-color: #0c0;" |
| width=78 style="background-color: #00c;" |
| width=10% style="background-color: #ccf;" | The sky is blue: ''78''
|}

[[User:Kim Bruning|Kim Bruning]] 13:32, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' as per Mysidia. ~~ '''[[User:Nickptar|N]]''' ([[User talk:Nickptar|t]]/[[Special:Contributions/Nickptar|c]]) 13:50, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
*<s>'''Delete''', but only if such a consensus is reached via the TfD process;</s> this is not a speedy deletion candidate.  '''Kim:''' I recommend that you formally enter your vote (and allow another admin to close the debate).  &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 14:20, 21 August 2005 (UTC)  '''Vote changed. (See below.)'''  &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 01:19, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
*: You've probably heard this over and over and over, but [[WP:NOT|Wikipedia is not a democracy]], so this is not a vote in the first place.(It's a consensus finding poll). Even then, VFD, TFD and CSD don't override every other policy or practice, else wikipedia would grind to a halt. [[User:Kim Bruning|Kim Bruning]] 14:59, 21 August 2005 (UTC) (PS. Specifically, [[WP:NOT]] was written and reviewed by 100s or even 1000s of wikipedians over a period of years, while this tfd poll is conducted by a handful of wikipedians over a couple of days. Figuring out where consensus lies is left as an excersize to the reader ;-) ) [[User:Kim Bruning|Kim Bruning]] 15:13, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
:::Well, this is the prerogative of all Admins, to turn their adminstrative power into the ability to impose their will on the community.  An admin should not function as a judge-jury-and-executioner, but as a member of the community who is no more or less special in the validity of their opinions as any other non-admin. Figuring out whether you have crossed the line into inappropriate behavior unbecoming of an admin is left as an excersize to the reader. :( [[User:Ceyockey|Courtland]] 15:33, August 21, 2005 (UTC)
:::: I didn't use admin perogative, like you said, I'm just an editor with a couple more buttons. In this case, there is sufficient (actually ''overwhelming'') consensus to delete, because of existing policy, which is supported by thousands of wikipedians. Does that help? [[User:Kim Bruning|Kim Bruning]] 19:04, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
::::: Invoking majority rule regarding the "votes" to delete this template when you've been touting that this is not a democracy doesn't help, no. [[User:Ceyockey|Courtland]] 20:25, August 21, 2005 (UTC)
:::::: Hmm, in this case I'm referring to the inertia of getting all those people to change their mind, there was never any vote for WP:NOT, AFAIK. [[User:Kim Bruning|Kim Bruning]] 23:22, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
:::'''1.''' Please consult a dictionary, and you'll find that the word "vote" doesn't necessarily imply that a decision will be reached via a numerical count.  Used as a noun, "vote" can mean ''"a formal expression of preference for a candidate for office or for a proposed resolution of an issue"'' or ''"a means by which such a preference is made known, such as a raised hand or a marked ballot."''  Used as a verb, "vote" can mean ''"to express one's preference for a candidate or for a proposed resolution of an issue; cast a vote"'' or ''"to express a choice or an opinion."''  Source: ''The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition''   &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 16:24, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
:::: Ah, wikipedia jargon, my fault. A ''vote'' in wikipedia parlance is a [[majority vote]] (the root of all evil), while a ''poll'' is an [[opinion poll]], which is a nescessary evil. [[User:Kim Bruning|Kim Bruning]]
:::::I didn't refer to this discussion as "a vote"; I unambiguously referred to "'''''your''''' vote" (id est, your formal expression of preference for a proposed resolution of the issue).  This page is the template equivalent of [[Wikipedia:Votes for deletion|'''''Votes''''' for deletion]], so please don't lecture me on "Wikipedia parlance."  Please also refrain from arguing the widespread belief that VfD is misnamed, because it isn't.
:::::And even if I ''had'' used the term in the context that you suggest, I ''still'' wouldn't have been incorrect; "vote" ("the act or process of voting") != "majority vote."  &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 01:19, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
:::'''2.''' Yes, [[WP:NOT]] was written and reviewed by a multitude of Wikipedians, but so were the deletion policies that you've unilaterally decided to circumvent.  I believe that this template should be deleted, but not until the correct process has been followed.  I was under the impression that you had realized your error, but it's clear that I was mistaken.  I respectfully request that you once again undelete the template (and leave it undeleted, pending the outcome of this debate).  &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 16:24, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
:::: Actually the CSD was only reviewed by a handful of wikipedians who weren't really using process too well, so a lot of folks think that the current CSD rules are pretty weak. On the other hand, the fact that wikipedia is a consensus community is a given based on the fact that we're a [[wiki]]. We've all accepted that rule by editing here, basically. :-) So rather than unilateral circumvention, a better term in this case might be might be '''[[kilo]]'''lateral '''un'''circumvention. Let's not have TFD dictate wikipedia policy.  [[User:Kim Bruning|Kim Bruning]] 19:04, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
:::::Firstly, I referenced "the deletion policies," '''''not''''' any particular deletion policy.  Secondly, you claim that the [[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion|CSD]] were "only reviewed by a handful of wikipedians who weren't really using process too well," and that "the current CSD rules are pretty weak," but who are '''''you''''' to decide this, and why haven't you raised these issues on the [[Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion|talk page]] (to which you've yet to post a single remark)?  And as I note below, the concept that this template violates the spirit of [[WP:NOT]] is '''''your''''' personal belief, and should '''''not''''' be imposed upon the entire community.  &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 01:19, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
:::::I'm sorry but at no point does this template state that the result must be followed - it is merely an indicator.  I don't want to cause a fuss, but you are almost violating [[WP:POINT]] on this, and you ''have'' violated the TfD process.  Because there are a few people wanting it to be undeleted I am going to do so - call it partial consensus if you will. [[User:Violetriga|violet/riga]] [[User_talk:violetriga|(t)]] 19:12, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
:::::: Well, it Counts Votes, that sucks quite enough. It's probably ok to undelete it temporarily, but you'll have to watch it carefully to make sure it doesn't get transcluded anywhere. (And explain to and warn every person who does so).  [[User:Kim Bruning|Kim Bruning]] 19:29, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
:::::::I don't recall seeing any consensus that this template "should never be used"; that's based entirely upon your arbitrary assessment of its potential applications and your equally arbitrary interpretation of [[WP:NOT]].  '''''Any''''' template can be misused, but that doesn't mean that we should employ the pre-emptive measure of deleting all of them.  &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 01:19, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' although it is pretty, and ''shouldn't'' have any effect on the closing admins decision, I think it would only make users vote in order to sway the decision, w/o reading the discussion.  The discussion is the whole point, and if its going one way or another, maybe its becuase users changed their votes, and you would never know that if you stared at the pretty bar and didn't read the discussion.  [[Special:Contributions/Who|<span style="color:#FF0033;">∞</span>]][[User:Who|Who]][[User talk:Who|<span style="color:#00Ff00;">?</span><span style="color:#FF00FF;">¿</span><span style="color:#0033FF;">?</span>]] 19:19, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''.  I have two distinct reasons for keeping this.  ''Reason number 1'': While I agree, not a democracy, I also feel that there should not be any prohibition against trying to summarize the state of a complicated discussion.  In my mind that is likely to involve counting votes (for good or ill, we all do pay attention to how much support each side has).  That said I wouldn't endorse using it on any but the most complicated couple percent of votes.  Perhaps having a guideline that there must be 50+ participants before it can be used.  ''Reason number 2'': I feel this comparison bar is a neat hack that is likely to be useful in article space.  Large parts of the real world ''are a democracy'' and certainly Wikipedia talks about that.  We could use this to show the outcome of real world votes.  Not to mention comparisons where there are two elements but which are not neccesarily votes.  Republicans vs. Democrats in Congress?  Size of Earth vs. Size of Sun?  Men vs. Women as CEOs?  Okay, so maybe all of those aren't necessarily good ideas, but I believe the widget could be useful even if there was/is consensus for never using it on VFD.  [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] 19:26, August 21, 2005 (UTC)
**To be quite honest, I did not think of its use in that manner. I think it maybe useful for showing outcome of things outside of wiki. Although I somewhat agree on large participation discussions, it may help see where we stand on the issue, I still have reservations about using for Wiki related discussions/votes, per my comments above. [[Iff]] it is ''only'' used for external outcomes, I would probably support. I would say that it could be used on some Wiki related discussion if there were guidelines, but I feel that borders [[m:instruction creep]]. [[Special:Contributions/Who|<span style="color:#FF0033;">∞</span>]][[User:Who|Who]][[User talk:Who|<span style="color:#00Ff00;">?</span><span style="color:#FF00FF;">¿</span><span style="color:#0033FF;">?</span>]] 20:32, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
Just to explain bit better why deleting the template is useful in this case: Basically, every time this template is transcluded, it violates [[WP:NOT]], or, (if you're actually a sane human being), it violates basic wiki-principles. So by keeping it either blanked or deleted, you kill a large number of <s>birds</s> violations with one stone. Everyone can at least blank a page, so I'm not sure why the first people to spot this problem hadn't already done so. 
:Perhaps becuase some people realize that their personal opinions and interpretations are not sacrosanct, and that following the correct process (instead of imposing said beliefs upon the entire community) might facilitate productive discourse, thereby bringing to light alternative perceptions and previously overlooked possibilities.  &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 01:19, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Hmm, one other thing I'm demonstrating here is use of consensus rules to quickly get things done that need doing. ''Everyone'' has this power, so that means you too. Apply sane reasoning to the problem, and negotiate what you want. or just go ahead and do it :-) You actually applied some of that power today, where you got me to temporarily undelete the template and subst an example here. But note the reasoning above as well, that's why I'm keeping it deleted for the rest. If you'd like a copy of the template someplace if you need to examine it further for some reason, give me a yell. :-) [[User:Kim Bruning|Kim Bruning]] 19:23, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
:All of your arguments are based upon the (contested) claim that the template unequivocally violates [[WP:NOT]].  What gives you the authority to issue such a proclamation?  &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 01:19, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
:I disagree.  Wikipedia is not supposed to be run by votes, no, but this template doesn't pretend that it is.  It is simply a tool used to highlight the results of a vote.  I'm afraid that voting is commonplace and very much a part of Wikipedia, however - you're taking place in one now.  Voting happens all over and is not ''always'' a bad thing - it can show consensus much easier than lots of text can.  Note that I've not voted on whether this should be deleted, so this isn't a comment on that.  [[User:Violetriga|violet/riga]] [[User_talk:violetriga|(t)]] 19:36, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
:: It's a poll to figure out what consensus is, not a vote. There's actually a rather non-subtle distinction. [[User:Kim Bruning|Kim Bruning]] 20:22, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
:::So&nbsp;.&nbsp;.&nbsp;.&nbsp;you also possess the authority to override dictionary definitions?  &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 01:19, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
:: If there are votes cropping up all over wikipedia, then there is a significant danger of it failing to be a ''pedia'' for very much longer. There was a reason not to have votes, remember? Anyway, I'm glad you're taking over this particular tfd. Have a nice day. [[User:Kim Bruning|Kim Bruning]] 20:22, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
:::Violet/Riga is "taking over"?  My, how gracious of you to relinquish your self-appointed command.  &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 01:19, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', but rename to something less specific (such as {{tl|ratio bar}}), and avoid using the template in most (if not all) voting situations (especially those in which more than two options exist).  I initially voted (yes, '''''voted''''') to delete, but [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] has convinced me that this template has legitimate applications.  &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 01:19, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
*''Comment'' from some of the input from Kim above, it's pretty clear to me that this is an example of Kim's violating the [[WP:POINT]] guideline, in particular when he says things like "Hmm, one other thing I'm demonstrating here is use of consensus rules to quickly get things done that need doing" which seems to imply that his actions here are meant in part to teach us a lesson about how Wikipedia ''should'' be run. [[User:Ceyockey|Courtland]] 01:30, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
*Comment: I'm actually an individual who favours precision over nebulous scenarios, and this vote bar is an expression of my desire for precision.  The term "consensus" on Wikipedia really needs to be rigourously defined.  And ''nowhere'' in this template did I say that the numbers it shows are binding.  It is only an '''indicator''', nothing more.  Admins do not, and ''must not'', have to rely on it alone to decide how to close a poll.  If they want to read through all of the opinions, then there is nothing I can do about that.  All I did was create a ''simple'' indication of what the scenario looks like at the present time. <span style="border: 2px solid #ba0000;">&nbsp;[[User:Denelson83|Denelson]][[User talk:Denelson83|'''83''']]&nbsp;</span> 01:50, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Strong keep''' per [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] and [[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]]. I find their arguments quite convincing. [[User:DESiegel|DES]] [[User talk:DESiegel|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 02:11, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' the recent discussion and series of polls on extending the CSD drew quite a bit of participation and comments, as well as a number of votes. Peopele were fairly claer, IMO, that they were reluctant to extend the CSD overly, and that they expected the current CSD to be treated rather strictly, not bent. This was not a speedy deletion candidate. [[User:DESiegel|DES]] [[User talk:DESiegel|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 02:11, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Further comment:''' Kim_Bruning and I have agreed that there are other legitimate uses for this vote bar.  I just added it to [[1995 Quebec referendum]] as a canonical example. <span style="border: 2px solid #ba0000;">&nbsp;[[User:Denelson83|Denelson]][[User talk:Denelson83|'''83''']]&nbsp;</span> 03:02, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''comment'''. Had a chat with Denelson83 today. He pointed out uses for the template outside wikipedia: namespace (for example: [[1995 Quebec referendum]]). Ok, well I agree with that (as also per Lifeisunfair and Dragons Flight). The template will have to be carefully gaurded against abuse in the wikipedia: namespace though. As long as people do that, I'm ok with it. [[User:Kim Bruning|Kim Bruning]] 03:16, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' - Wikipedia is not a democracy, and this is just another thing that will mislead people into thinking it is. -- [[User:Cyrius|Cyrius]]|[[User talk:Cyrius|✎]] 03:35, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
::Well, I have volunteered to guard this template and make sure it is only used under appropriate circumstances. <span style="border: 2px solid #ba0000;">&nbsp;[[User:Denelson83|Denelson]][[User talk:Denelson83|'''83''']]&nbsp;</span> 07:21, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
*<s>'''Delete'''.  Should be deleted for the exact same reasons as was [[Template:Vfd votes]].  -[[User:Gtrmp|Sean Curtin]] 03:59, August 22, 2005 (UTC)</s>  '''Weak keep if renamed'''.  As long as we try to keep this out of the realm of VfD and other WP votes and polls, it's fine by me.  As a nitpick, I think that the bar itself ought to be shorter in height; it seems almost like a space filler on my screen.  -[[User:Gtrmp|Sean Curtin]] 22:37, August 22, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Very strong delete'''. To reduce all of a discussion down to a colored bar is an absurd reduction and very un-Wiki. [[User:BlankVerse|<span style="color:green;">''Blank''</span><span style="color:#F88017;">''Verse''</span>]] [[User talk:BlankVerse|<span style="color:#F660AB;">∅</span>]] 06:28, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
**After seeing it in use in an article, I am now further opposed to this template. It's one of those cases there a picture is not worth a thousand words, and in fact, doesn't provide a better "picture" than the raw numbers or percentages. If it could be done as a bar graph it fould be helpful, but not as this template. [[User:BlankVerse|<span style="color:green;">''Blank''</span><span style="color:#F88017;">''Verse''</span>]] [[User talk:BlankVerse|<span style="color:#F660AB;">∅</span>]] 07:28, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Strong delete''', see [[WP:CENT]] for two polls regarding usage of such templates, to which people were ''heavily'' opposed. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<span style="color:orange;">&gt;|&lt;</span>]] 08:29, August 22, 2005 (UTC)
*Here.  Let me give you another way to use this vote bar.  I will use it as a ''summary'' to list reasons given for keeping this template contrasted with reasons given for deleting it.  '''Do not interpret it as anything more than an innocent summary.'''  And I sincerely hope this isn't an example of a [[WP:POINT]]. <span style="border: 2px solid #ba0000;">&nbsp;[[User:Denelson83|Denelson]][[User talk:Denelson83|'''83''']]&nbsp;</span> 08:42, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
<pre>
{{vote bar
|Option 1=Reasons to delete | Voting for option 1=7 | Percent for option 1=(77.8%) | Color for option 1=Red | Header color for option 1=#fcc 
|Option 2=Reasons to keep | Voting for option 2=2 | Percent for option 2=(22.2%) | Color for option 2=#0c0 | Header color for option 2=#cfc
}}
</pre>
{| width=100%
| width=50% style="text-align: left;" |
Violates "WP is not a democracy" doctrine<br>
May influence opinions<br>
It simply IS a template<br>
Bad choice of name<br>
Looks bad where it is used<br>
Gives illusion consensus is not used<br>
May get overused, causing general clutter
| width=50% style="text-align: right;" |
Other uses besides internal votes<br>
Acts as a summary
|}
*'''Rename''' to {{tl|ratio bar}} as per <span style="border: 2px solid #ba0000;">&nbsp;[[User:Denelson83|Denelson]][[User talk:Denelson83|'''83''']]&nbsp;</span>'s suggestion.  While I agree for a number of reasons that its use in VfD pages would be at best unhelpful, there are a number of other reasons to want to use such a bar. My only worry about the template is that the use of '▲' (U+25B2 Black Up-Pointing Triangle) might cause some problems for older browsers, but that's a question of the template's comntenet, not its apprpriateness. [[User:Caerwine|Caerwine]] 22:05, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
*My 2 cents: I don't think admins should speedily delete anything while their VfD lag time still lasts, unless they can point to a specific [[WP:CSD]] rule. To quote [[WP:ADMIN]]: "''Administrators are not imbued with any special authority [...] it should be noted that administrators do not have any special power over other users other than applying decisions made by all users.''" (I see the template has already been undeleted, but I still want to be clear on this issue.)<br>(No vote on the current template) --[[User:IByte|IByte]] 23:00, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Comment:''' A way we could discourage abuse of this template would be to make sure it is only inserted into appropriate articles with the "subst" qualifier. <span style="border: 2px solid #ba0000;">&nbsp;[[User:Denelson83|Denelson]][[User talk:Denelson83|'''83''']]&nbsp;</span> 23:26, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

* '''Strong keep'''. As a very visual person, something like this would always help me understand arguments better. Its not just for policy, and I don't see what this has to do with being a democracy or not. [[User:PZFUN|'''<span style="color:#000000;">Páll</span>''']] [[User talk:PZFUN|<sup style="color:#ff66cc;">('''Die&nbsp;pienk&nbsp;olifant''')</sup>]] 23:31, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
*: Eh... wait. How would a two-colored bar help you understand arguments? Summaries of arguments people are using are always helpful and we should certainly use them more, but they don't need two-colored bars. [[User:JRM|JRM]] · [[User talk:JRM|Talk]] 23:45, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
*:: Some people are more easily able grasp information in a visual manner than a textual one.  There's no harm is using graphics where appropriate and there are situations where I feel this template would be appropriate. [[User:Caerwine|Caerwine]] 00:07, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
*::: That's not quite what I asked&mdash;I don't understand ''what information is being grasped'' in this way. How many people voted for A and how many for B, yes, obviously. But Páll said it would help him understand arguments better, and that I don't quite get. In case of the ratio bar, it seems obvious you could drop the whole bar and keep just the summaries (mirrored on either side of the page if you like). Counting the "percentage" of ''reasons'' offered isn't meaningful in any sense. If this is something you "just can't get" if you're a textual person, I apologize; I'm not trying to belittle or disparage arguments here. [[User:JRM|JRM]] · [[User talk:JRM|Talk]] 02:00, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
*::::This is what I mentioned earlier, if anyone is using a visual aide to get the ''feel'' of where the discussion is going, it could be inaccurately persuading their vote on the discussion. If I do not understand a particular discussion, or do not feel like getting involved by reading the ''entire'' thing, than I don't get involved! The visual meter destroys the whole point of the discussion. I would only want such a bar to stay around if NOT ever used on Wiki related discussions, ie. presidential polls and such.  [[Special:Contributions/Who|<span style="color:#FF0033;">∞</span>]][[User:Who|Who]][[User talk:Who|<span style="color:#00Ff00;">?</span><span style="color:#FF00FF;">¿</span><span style="color:#0033FF;">?</span>]] 06:36, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Userfy'''. OK, it's just a template and I mean it no harm, but I'm not going to ignore the elephant in the room, which is the underlying issue. If Denelson feels strongly about stewarding it, he should adopt it in his userspace. It's not even good on polls, as these are supposed to gauge whether an idea meets overwhelming (dis)approval, so you avoid arguing about things nobody really wants to argue about. If there isn't, you don't need a colored bar to tell you that's the case (as it'll be blindingly obvious), you need to poll on something else. Ad hoc, schmad hoc. ''Yes'' to attempts at clarifying large, unclear opinion dumps. ''No'' to attempts at highlighting where the percentages lie. And we really should go back to the drawing table on the whole "Wikipedia is not a democracy, it's run by consensus" thing, as consensus is hard while democracy is easy. I get the feeling people aren't seeing any added benefit to consensus (or aren't seeing consensus ''at all'') and are thinking this democracy thing looks pretty good in other places, so why not use it here? [[User:JRM|JRM]] · [[User talk:JRM|Talk]] 23:45, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
::Hmmm... Now that just might be a good idea for me to move it to <nowiki>{{User:Denelson83/Ratio bar}}</nowiki> or something. <span style="border: 2px solid #ba0000;">&nbsp;[[User:Denelson83|Denelson]][[User talk:Denelson83|'''83''']]&nbsp;</span> 02:05, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Strong Keep'''. Even if this isn't ever used on VFD (and, if it is, it should be used only in extremely crowded VFD discussions), it has numerous applications in the rest of the encyclopedia, as noted above. Any time it is necessary to visually display a ratio between two figures, this template enables it to be done easily. Also, I feel that Kim Bruning's speedy delete was highly inappropriate and a violation of Wikipedia policy. [[User:Firebug|Firebug]] 00:22, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
*: Oh dear. So according to you I didn't just apply policy properly, I actually violated it. I think I just arrived here from an alternate universe or something, this is so wierd :-/ . *Sigh* very well, could you point out which policy you think I violated? [[User:Kim Bruning|Kim Bruning]] 19:53, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', but rename.  Although I don't think it's necessary for votes, it has a number of other uses. [[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] 20:34, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

*[[Image:Alarm.gif]]<br>I am now getting an uncomfortable amount of mutually contradictory information regarding this policy.  [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2005-08-22/Wikiproject decency vfd|This Wikipedia Signpost article]] includes a tally of keep vs. delete votes for the Wikipedians for Decency WikiProject.  I attempted to apply the "Wikipedia is not a democracy" doctrine to it by removing the tally, and here's the message I got from the editor of the Signpost:
----
:"As I understand it, [[Template:Vote bar]] was rejected because it was unneeded, and it assumed, in many cases, that there was a specific spot between keep and delete.  All I did is report on what the unofficial vote tally was.  That is not wrong, nor is it a double-standard.  If you wanted to create your own page where you kept tallies on controversial votes, that would be fine.

:"In any event, please do not edit the Signpost unless to fix an inaccuracy or a typo.  I at least deserved the respect of having you talk to me on my talk page or in the Newsroom, rather than finding out on a Discussion page 3 days after you made the change.  [[User:Ral315|<span style="color:red;">ral</span>]][[User talk:Ral315|<span style="color:green;">315</span>]] 05:08, August 26, 2005 (UTC)"
----
:With this message, I am now seriously opposing the policy against internal vote tallies on Wikipedia.  There is clearly a hypocritical atmosphere here, and it isn't fair.

:You know what, that does it!  I had no choice but to put this template into my userspace.  It is now officially known as [[User:Denelson83/Ratio bar]]. <span style="border: 2px solid #ba0000;">&nbsp;[[User:Denelson83|Denelson]][[User talk:Denelson83|'''83''']]&nbsp;</span> 07:06, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

----
* '''COMMENT''' er, what does this have to do with VfD? IT's a bar comparing two amounts out of a whole, could be used anywhere... like in the election pages comparing the amounts a Democrat or a Republican gets. [[User:132.205.3.20|132.205.3.20]] 15:22, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

* '''Speedy keep'''. I know I'm probably on the wrong side of the crowd here, but there are other uses for this template than a VfD vote. Please consider that before deleting this template. ''Misuse of the template doesn't mean the template is useless.'' --[[User:Titoxd|Tito]][[User_talk:Titoxd|<span style="color:#008000;">xd</span>]] 23:09, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
* '''Speedy delete''', violation of [[m:Polls are evil]], [[WP:NOT]], and, arguably, [[WP:POINT]]. [[User:Jdforrester|James F.]] [[User_talk:Jdforrester|(talk)]] 13:26, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
* '''Delete.'''. As per others, this has the potential to be used to undermine [[WP:NOT]] a Democracy by giving a certain person's interpretation of discussion the 'color' of an official ballot poll. Also:
**Encourages the fallacy of representing discrete data (numbers of votes) as if they were continuous in nature. A bar graph in column form would be better, pictograph ideal. 
**Doesn't seem to adequately represent contests with more than 2 parties where a plurality 'wins' the contest.
**All stated "legitimate use" examples would be equally or better served by using Microsoft Excel, Apple Keynote, or similar Open Source packages to generate a chart suitable to the article and upload as an image. Template programming mechanics are simply not well-suited to this use. (Seems like hammering a nail using a banana)
***Excuse me, since when is Microsoft Excel or anything else by Microsoft an Open Source package? Or did you mean an open source package of similar functionality? [[User:DESiegel|DES]] [[User talk:DESiegel|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 19:59, 31 August 2005 (UTC) 
**Yes I realize that most of those are criticisms calling for improvement rather than deletion, but I think that these shortcomings detract from any legitimate use such that it cannot justify the potential for negative use per the first reason. [[User:Kwh|Kwh]] 19:49, August 31, 2005 (UTC)

'''KEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP''' This thing is neat... now if only I could figure out how to use it :\. Whether or not majority votes are banned or whatever has nothing to do with this template. Just doing it for fun on a talk page (as it obviously has its uses there) is by itself enough reason to ''KEEEEEEEPPP'' <small>[[User:RN|Ryan Norton]] <sup>[[User talk:RN|<span style="color:#6BA800;">T</span>]] | [[Special:Emailuser/RN|<span style="color:#0033FF;">@</span>]] | [[Special:Contributions/RN|<span style="color:#FF0000;">C</span>]]</sup></small> 20:03, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
<pre>
{{vote bar
|Option 1=Good reasons to delete | Voting for option 1=1 | Percent for option 1=(10%) | Color for option 1=Red | Header color for option 1=#fcc 
|Option 2=Good reasons to keep | Voting for option 2=9 | Percent for option 2=(90%) | Color for option 2=#0c0 | Header color for option 2=#cfc
}}
</pre>
{| width=100%
| width=50% style="text-align: left;" |
| width=50% style="text-align: right;" |
|}
:OK, I really think this is awesome now, LOL (gets messed up if one side has 0 votes though) <small>[[User:RN|Ryan Norton]] <sup>[[User talk:RN|<span style="color:#6BA800;">T</span>]] | [[Special:Emailuser/RN|<span style="color:#0033FF;">@</span>]] | [[Special:Contributions/RN|<span style="color:#FF0000;">C</span>]]</sup></small> 20:16, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' Can be misused, and often shouldn't be used.  Might be useful on occasions, and I see no benefit to deleting it.  And [[WP:WIN]] does ''not'' allow admins to delete articles that contravene it.  And the definition of "vote" as "majority vote" is fascinating, and ridiculous.  A rose by any other name would smell as sweet and all that.  I guess Kim might argue that it still has thorns, but that's his problem :-).  [[User:smoddy|<nowiki>[[smoddy]]</nowiki>]] 22:30, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep'''. Useful for many purposes, especially for summarising closed VfD discussions. --[[User:Misza13|Misza13]] 17:40:58, 2005-09-02 (UTC)

*'''Keep'''. Cool! [[User:Vacuum|Vacuum]] [[Special:Contributions/Vacuum|c]] 02:57, September 3, 2005 (UTC)

<u>Period of comment 21 August AM to 3 September AM &mdash; 13 days</u><br>
<u>Removed from TFD 3 September AM &mdash; 13 days</u>

==== [[Template:Chem-cat]]====
'''Delete''': A convenient and systematic way to crowd the article namespace with suggestions for editors, which (last I checked) were deprecated.  Also, if you're going to add this template to a page, you might as well just fulfill the suggestion and skip the extra step. --[[User:Smack|Smack]] ([[User talk:Smack|talk]]) 15:03, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', agree with the above. - [[User:SimonP|SimonP]] 15:29, August 13, 2005 (UTC)
*Might be reasonable if placed on a talk page. Presumably should be placed only by an editor who is not sure what the proepr subcat is. '''weak keep''' if restricted to talk pages and properly documented. [[User:DESiegel|DES]] [[User talk:DESiegel|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 16:18, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Weak keep''', but only if the template is moved from every article it is currently on to the articles' talk pages. If not moved, then delete. [[User:BlankVerse|<span style="color:green;">''Blank''</span><span style="color:#F88017;">''Verse''</span>]] [[User talk:BlankVerse|<span style="color:#F660AB;">∅</span>]] 21:36, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep.''' The template is used at the bottom of the article, onobtrusively. The chemistry category now has 172 articles. If I knew the appropriate subcategory for these articles, I would go ahead and take care of it myself. The category has had the "cleancat" tag, on its talk page, since May 1. [[User:Maurreen|Maurreen]] [[User_talk:Maurreen|(talk)]] 22:59, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', this is a good idea but it's better taken from the category (and WikiProject:chemistry) than by sticking a template on each related article and asking 'can someone else please help'. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<span style="color:orange;">&gt;|&lt;</span>]] 00:07, August 14, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''': It's just in the way and superfluous. [[User:~K|~K]] 00:12, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Questions:''' For the sake of curiosity, how does this template have less value or make any more of a problem than, for example, the stub or wikifacation templates, when those needs are evident in the articles? And for the sake of efficiency, can anyone suggest a more effective method to accomplish the same thing, especially for those categories without a project? For example, [[:Category:Computing]] got [[Template:Cleancat]] on 22 June. I requested help with [[:Category:Computing]] at [[Talk:Computing]] on 27 July. The main cat still has more than 150 articles. [[User:Maurreen|Maurreen]] [[User_talk:Maurreen|(talk)]] 01:28, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
*:Your time would probably be better spent recategorizing than slapping a template on each article.  I don't really believe there is such a thing as overpopulation of a category.  And if someone doesn't know where to categorize an article, we would want them to put it in a general category so that someone more knowledgable could come along and recategorize it properly. &mdash;[[User:Moverton|Mike]] 02:13, August 14, 2005 (UTC)
*::I think putting a template on the ''category'' would be useful (e.g. "this category is getting too large, please move items to its subcats"). Cleaner-uppers could more easily work from there. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<span style="color:orange;">&gt;|&lt;</span>]] 13:20, August 14, 2005 (UTC)
*:''comment'': 150 articles ... that is certainly not an example of overpopulation of a category in my opinion.  On the other hand, 1,500 would present more of a problem. [[User:Ceyockey|Courtland]] 01:25, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
*:It usually requires significant expertise in a subject to expand a stub, and it can take a lot of work to wikify an article.  IMHO, fussing with categories is fairly quick and requires only superficial knowledge.  What we need is a tag placed in the category page that marks it as too large. --[[User:Smack|Smack]] ([[User talk:Smack|talk]]) 02:41, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

*It might be useful to generalize this to accept a parameter to the category. Or perhaps simply a template which says: This article is not categorized specifically enough. Or perhaps not. As with article text, people will come along and fix this. Eventually. --[[User:MarSch|MarSch]] 17:49, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' as too specific, but I strongly encourage the generalization of this to a talk page located, {{tl|cleanup-subcat}} tag.  Hope that helps. [[User:JesseW|JesseW]] 06:32, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' Too specific.  Not very useful. -- Reinyday, 15 August 2005
*'''Delete'''. The template {{tl|verylarge}} should be used as a general solution; this template places the category into the "cleanup" cateogory [[:Category:Overpopulated categories]]. [[User:Ceyockey|Courtland]] 01:28, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''.  Constructive. -- [[User:Visviva|Visviva]] 01:21, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' - doesn't seem to be used by any pages in the main namespace. --[[User:Ixfd64|Ixfd64]] 06:08, 2005 September 1 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' - one should be able to put a template on the category page that needs cleaning out, which would then automatically propagate as a note on the pages categorized there. Doing this manually, and for one specific category only, is not the right way. --[[User:Joy|Joy <small><small>&#91;shallot&#93;</small></small>]] 22:18, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

'''Comment''' I have acted on the suggestion of the template in those cases where it had been placed on articles.  I have also placed a note on the Talk page of the template asking whether it has now completed in the service it was designed to perform.  I still think that this can be deleted, but it is stated to perform a service and I'd like to determine whether suporters for its being kept believe it has in fact served its purpose and is no longer required in the clean-up arsenal. [[User:Ceyockey|Courtland]] 01:14, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

'''Comment''' We get a lot of people placing articles into the general chemistry category because they know it is chem-related, but a lot of people are hesitant to categorise it any further (we have hundreds of sub-categories!).  As such, it is useful.  My concern is, how are the people (who are unfamiliar with chem) to know that this template exists? If there are plenty of people who would use it, we should keep it.  If it's too obscure/hard to find, then delete it. [[User:Walkerma|Walkerma]] 22:14, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

'''Comment''' discussion at [[Template_talk:Chem-cat]] has culminated in the agreement that this can be restricted to talk-page usage rather than appearing in the main article space. [[User:Ceyockey|Courtland]] 01:39, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

<u>Period of comment 13 August PM to 1 Sept. PM &mdash; 19 days</u><br>
<u>Removed from TFD 5 Sept. AM &mdash; 22 days</u>

==== [[Template:Future building]]====
This template is overkill and an inappropriate adoption of the future events template. There's nothing "speculative" or unexpected about construction plans. If construction has occurred, there's nothing dramatic that should happen. The information contained in this article is essentially useless. The articles of every country in the world, every world head of state, and every living person covered in this encyclopedia is in more danger of being outdated that some building under construction. --[[User:Jiang|Ji]][[User talk:Jiang|ang]] 11:55, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' agree with the above. Any good article should already make clear what items are just proposals. - [[User:SimonP|SimonP]] 22:06, August 22, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. Yes, there is speculation, in [[Burj Dubai]]'s case. --[[User:WikiFan04|WikiFan04]]<sup>[[User_talk:WikiFan04|Talk]] 22:56, 25 Aug 2005 (CDT)</sup>
*'''Keep'''. Serves its purpose like the expected/planned product template. [[User:Andrew pmk|Andrew pmk]] 19:23, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' It must be clear from the text that it is discussing something that will happen in the future. If it is retained it should be toned down to be less visually intrusive.[[User:Saga City|Saga City]] 06:41, August 27, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. An article about proposed construction is not speculative. The construction is proposed, and the proposition itself is worthy of encyclopedic note. --[[User:Mm35173|Mm35173]] 22:14, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' Skyscraper fans are prone to be overenthuistic. It is an excellent idea to have a standardised warning. [[User:CalJW|CalJW]] 21:53, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

<u>Period of comment 21 August AM to 4 Sept. PM &mdash; 14 days</u><br>
<u>Removed from TFD 5 Sept. AM &mdash; 15 days</u>

====[[Template:Sectio]]====
Used by [[Template:Taxobox sectio entry]] as an inserted template.  The content used to be <nowiki>[[Section (biology)|Section]]</nowiki> but is now just ''Section''.  I do not see the purpose of this template in its current state, the text can just be subst in the other template.  [[Special:Contributions/Who|<span style="color:#FF0033;">∞</span>]][[User:Who|Who]][[User talk:Who|<span style="color:#00Ff00;">?</span><span style="color:#FF00FF;">¿</span><span style="color:#0033FF;">?</span>]] 09:57, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

:Perhaps because of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Whatlinkshere/Template:Sectio and perhaps because it is part of a set of templates that have a similar usage ?? [[User:GerardM|GerardM]] 10:16, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''keep'''. It is part of a series of templates for the taxobox that allow the taxobox to be more easily copied to other language 'pedias. If the nominator had contacted any of the editors ''before'' making the nomination, they would have know that and probably not nominated it. - [[User:UtherSRG|UtherSRG]] [[User_talk:UtherSRG|(talk)]] 11:05, August 23, 2005 (UTC)
**I only nominated it because it only contains plain text with no variables now. It seems that can be subst instead. Also, I did contact both editors after the nomination, which is standard practice. I would have contacted before if it were using a set of variables but ''seemed'' <s>unused</s> obsolete in that format.  [[Special:Contributions/Who|<span style="color:#FF0033;">∞</span>]][[User:Who|Who]][[User talk:Who|<span style="color:#00Ff00;">?</span><span style="color:#FF00FF;">¿</span><span style="color:#0033FF;">?</span>]] 19:30, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''del''', this just makes taxoboxes more confusing --[[User:MarSch|MarSch]] 11:21, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' as people are using it. [[User:JesseW|JesseW]] 18:50, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

<u>Period of comment 23 August AM to 26 August PM &mdash; 3 days</u><br>
<u>Removed from TFD 5 Sept. AM &mdash; 13 days</u>

==== [[Template:Interwiki-category-check]]====
Er, I can't see how this is useful, all it does is add a category to the main namespace to do with editing, and on a minor issue - the order of categories?!?!?. [[User:Duncharris|Dunc]]|[[User talk:duncharris|☺]] 11:17, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' It is used by [[User:Pearle|Pearle]] and [[User:Whobot|Whobot]] when doing mass re-cats. It checks for bad interwiki links, and labels them for human intervention.  (I think I got everything, Beland could explain better).  [[Special:Contributions/Who|<span style="color:#FF0033;">∞</span>]][[User:Who|Who]][[User talk:Who|<span style="color:#00Ff00;">?</span><span style="color:#FF00FF;">¿</span><span style="color:#0033FF;">?</span>]] 20:25, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''.  This template is in active use.  It may seem simple, but it's a convenient way to find all the articles in recent runs where a bot couldn't properly edit an article.  These articles need manual attention so they can be automatically edited in the future, and so that they comply with Wikipedia style standards.  It's not the sort order of the categories that's checked, it's that the interwiki and category and stub tags can be parsed properly, and that they are at the end of the article.  Parse failures (which are what is tagged) are usually an indication that the article is messed up, often that it needs to be split into multiple articles.  I usually get around to fixing these within a few days of doing a run, but I do need some way of finding them. -- [[User:Beland|Beland]] 01:57, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
** In which case, you create a list of affected pages and dump it elsewhere - don't use the categorisation system, which is for something else entirely! [[User:Duncharris|Dunc]]|[[User talk:duncharris|☺]] 16:30, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
*If this is a personal template, it should be '''userfied and the resulting redirect deleted'''. --[[User:MarSch|MarSch]] 11:27, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. [[User:BlankVerse|<span style="color:green;">''Blank''</span><span style="color:#F88017;">''Verse''</span>]] [[User talk:BlankVerse|<span style="color:#F660AB;">∅</span>]] 13:35, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' - userfy if that is feasible and only Beland is using it, otherwise, just keep. [[User:JesseW|JesseW]] 18:47, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. If [[User:Beland|Beland]] is using it for maintenance, it's a good thing. --[[User:BD2412/deletion debates|<span style="background: lightgreen">&nbsp;''BD2412''</span>]] [[User talk:BD2412/deletion debates|<sup><b>talk</b></sup>]] 15:17, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

<u>Period of comment 24 August AM to 2 Sept. PM &mdash; 9 days</u><br>
<u>Removed from TFD 5 Sept. AM &mdash; 12 days</u>

====Numbered Seemain series====
'''This entry concerns the following templates: {{tl|seemain2}}, {{tl|seemain3}}, {{tl|seemain4}}<s>, {{tl|seemain5}}, {{tl|seemain6}}, {{tl|seemain7}}, {{tl|seemain8}}, {{tl|seemain9}}, {{tl|seemain10}} and {{tl|seemain20}}</s>'''<br>
''Due to a delay in notification, voting (which began on August 15) has been extended.''

Mentioned in the discussion on {{tl|Seemain}}, it seems prudent to separate the discussions since people probably have different opinions here. '''Delete''' these, there are overly many of them and they're not very pointful. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<span style="color:orange;">&gt;|&lt;</span>]] 10:13, August 15, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' reasons from earlier discussions.  [[User:Vegaswikian|Vegaswikian]] 22:42, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' as below: they're useful. I feel more strongly about 2 to 4 than the rest though. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 19:27, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep 2, 3, and 4'''.  For lists larger than 4 I think there needs to be considered a split to the article section to which the list is attached.  In cases where such a split is not warranted, then either a section "see also" or reference to a sectionized "see also" would be useful.  In fact, the creation of a {{tl|seemain4plus}} could be considered which would be identical to {{tl|seemain4}} except it would include a reference to the page's "see also" section using an internal bookmark-link to that section via [[:#See also]]. [[User:Ceyockey|Courtland]] 00:03, August 17, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Redirect''' {{tl|seemain2}} to {{tl|main2}}.  '''Delete''' all of the others.  The {{tl|seemain2}} template serves a valid purpose, but it's 100% redundant with {{tl|main2}}.  The remainder are extraneous, because {{tl|main2}} can accommodate '''any''' plural number of article links.  &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 00:24, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
* '''Redirect''' {{tl|seemain2}} to {{tl|main2}} and '''delete''' the rest.  [[User:Eequor|&#8227;<span style="font-size:large;">&#5339;&#5505;</span>]]<span class="venus">[[Image:Venus symbol (blue).gif|&#9792;]]</span>[{{SERVER}}{{localurl:User talk:Eequor}} <span style="font-size:large;">&#5200;</span>] 00:58, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Comment''': The claim about {{tl|main2}} accomodating any number of text links is based upon '''<nowiki>{{main2|Article1|Article2]], [[Article3]], [[Article 4}}</nowiki>''' ([[User:SEWilco|SEWilco]] 02:44, 20 August 2005 (UTC))
*'''Comment''': For the record, I strongly object to [[User:SEWilco|SEWilco]]'s attempt to "cancel" this vote (which happens to pertain to templates that SEWilco created) because [[User:Radiant!|Radiant]] neglected to engage in the virtually pointless task of inserting {{tl|tfd}} tags that no one will ever see.  The {{tl|ccm}} example (below) is a different story, but I doubt that the outcome (keep) is going to change.  &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 17:50, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
**'''Comment''': If there should be no notification then have the TfD process modified.  Perhaps speedy deletion of templates would save a lot of pointless consideration.  ([[User:SEWilco|SEWilco]] 20:24, 23 August 2005 (UTC))
::I don't claim that "there should be no notification," but the insertion of the {{tl|tfd}} tag into unused templates doesn't notify anyone of anything.  [[User:Radiant!|Radiant]]'s failure to complete this busywork is a flimsy excuse to "cancel" a debate (particularly one concerning templates of your own creation).  Wikipedia rules generally should be followed, but common sense should prevail over a miniscule technicality.  &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 21:07, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
::: You're claiming the templates were unused yet neglect to mention that you made them be unused yesterday.  ([[User:SEWilco|SEWilco]] 21:32, 23 August 2005 (UTC))
::::Of course I did!  They had to be orphaned before the {{tl|tfd}} tag could be added (per your insistence).  For the record,   the article count was as follows:
::::{{tl|seemain2}} &mdash; 15
::::{{tl|seemain3}} and {{tl|seemain4}} &mdash; 1 each
::::{{tl|seemain5}}&ndash;{{tl|seemain20}} &mdash; 0
::::&mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 21:57, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
:::::I see that you just reverted my edits.  Do you not understand that this disrupts legitimate articles by inserting a message that most readers won't understand (because there's no obvious "template" below the text)?  &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 22:15, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
::::: What is your understanding of "notification" which requires hiding messages?  You also did not mention your older similar "minor" edits.  ([[User:SEWilco|SEWilco]] 22:05, 23 August 2005 (UTC))
:::::: What the heck are you talking about?!  &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 22:15, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
::::::: The instructions for tfd say: ''Please include "tfd" or similar in the edit summary, and don't mark the edit as minor. If the page is heavily in use and/or protected, consider putting the notice on its talk page instead.''  You '''minor'''-edited articles to remove usage of the templates, some edits immediately preceding your addition of {{tl|tfd}} to the templates.  How do you expect notification of, and participation in, the TfD when you hide it all?  ([[User:SEWilco|SEWilco]] 23:51, 23 August 2005 (UTC))
::::::::<span style="color:#00A651;">"''The instructions for tfd say: Please include "tfd" or similar in the edit summary, and don't mark the edit as minor."''</span>
::::::::Yes, and that's precisely what I did.  My edit summary for all ten templates was "tfd tag," and I didn't mark any of these edits as minor.
::::::::<span style="color:#00A651;">"''If the page is heavily in use and/or protected, consider putting the notice on its talk page instead."''</span>
::::::::And yet, when I moved {{tl|seemain2}}'s TfD notice to the talk page, you reverted.  Evidently, you're determined to disrupt fifteen articles via the insertion of a contextually nonsensical message.  And over what do you wage this battle?  A template (which ''you'' created, of course) that's patently redundant with {{tl|main2}}.  I mean, do you even deny that?
::::::::<span style="color:#00A651;">"''You '''minor'''-edited articles"''</span>
::::::::The above instructions refer to the insertion of the {{tl|tfd}} tag into the templates, '''''not''''' edits to the articles that contain them!  I marked these as minor, because the replacement of one template with another that generates virtually identical output has no major effect on the article.
::::::::<span style="color:#00A651;">"''to remove usage of the templates, some edits immediately preceding your addition of {{tl|tfd}} to the templates."''</span>
::::::::That was the point!  As I've explained, this was to avoid disrupting the articles via the insertion of a message that makes absolutely no sense to readers (because it refers to a seemingly nonexistent "template").  Earlier in the month, I removed a few other instances, which I stumbled upon when attempting to orphan {{tl|seemain}} &mdash; the parent template (which '''''you''''' blanked and proposed for deletion after an earlier TfD consensus was to redirect to {{tl|main}}).
::::::::<span style="color:#00A651;">"''How do you expect notification of, and participation in, the TfD when you hide it all?"''</span>
::::::::What did I "hide"?  &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 01:46, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
::::::::: You hid the TfD notices.  And I'm not complaining about the TfD on the templates, I have been making sure they get deleted.  I'm complaining about your bypassing the TfD notification process.  ([[User:SEWilco|SEWilco]] 02:23, 24 August 2005 (UTC))
::::::::::<span style="color:#00A651;">"''You hid the TfD notices.''"</span>
::::::::::I'm the one who added them!  The fact that they aren't displayed as prominently as ''you'' would prefer (id est, disrupting numerous articles without conveying any useful information) doesn't mean that they're "hidden."
::::::::::<span style="color:#00A651;">"''And I'm not complaining about the TfD on the templates, I have been making sure they get deleted.''"</span>
::::::::::I honestly don't know what the above statement is supposed to mean.
::::::::::<span style="color:#00A651;">"''I'm complaining about your bypassing the TfD notification process."''</span>
::::::::::Please cite one step that I've bypassed.  &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 03:16, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Redirect 2-5''' and '''Delete the rest''' For brevity's sake it would best if the core title was {{tl|main}} and not {{tl|seemain}}.  Once one gets past five articles I can't see the utility.  ''<nowiki>{{main4|Article1|Article2|Article3|Article 4}}</nowiki>'' has the advantage of being more intutitive and shorter than the kludge involving {{tl|main2}}. It has the additional advantage that if it is decided to add a conjunction to the '''main''' series of templates, it won't break. {{tl|seemain10}} is an interesting attempt at designing an adaptable template, but until or unless templates can be designed that will gracefully accept a variable number of arguments, I can't say I like {{tl|seemain10}}'s approach. [[User:Caerwine|Caerwine]] 21:38, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Comment''': I prefer the text on {{tl|seemain}} and they are not equivalent; except to those who don't mind having "''See Main article''", with inconsistent capitalization, all over the place. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 02:29, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
:*'''Note''': While formerly the parent template of this series, {{tl|seemain}} presently is a redirect to {{tl|main}} (per TfD consensus).  &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 03:16, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' {{tl|seemain2}} for the plural form of the word "article''<u>s</u>''", '''delete''' the rest. &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 15:16, August 25, 2005 (UTC)
::Please note that the pre-existing {{tl|main2}} template serves '''''exactly''''' the same purpose as {{tl|seemain2}}.  Also note that {{tl|seemain}} already has been redirected to {{tl|main}} (per TfD consensus).  &mdash;[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 17:18, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

<u>Period of comment 15 August to 25 August PM &mdash; 10 days</u><br>
<u>Removed from TFD 5 Sept. AM &mdash; 21 days</u>

==== [[Template:Idw]] ====
*'''Delete'''.  This type of message intimidates me every time I'm sent it.  Is it really necessary to send the uploader of an allegedly-copyrighted image such a harsh warning every time such an image is put on [[WP:PUI]]? <span style="border: 2px solid #ba0000;">&nbsp;[[User:Denelson83|Denelson]][[User talk:Denelson83|'''83''']]&nbsp;</span> 22:02, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
**It's not intended to be intimidating, it's intended to give the uploader a chance to defend her image. '''Keep''', but please reword if you find it harsh or intimidating. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 22:07, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
***Well, such a defence would be utterly pointless, as "fair use" is still a very touchy issue here.  As well, it's messages like this that indirectly led to the [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Denelson83|RFC]] against me.  Please note that at the time I write this, my wikimood is reading -6 (ornery).  Such minor criticism left on my talk page could send it even lower. <span style="border: 2px solid #ba0000;">&nbsp;[[User:Denelson83|Denelson]][[User talk:Denelson83|'''83''']]&nbsp;</span> 22:13, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
****I've seen IfD's for other things than copyright. However, if  filing this has reduced your Wikistress, good; I trust editing the template will take care of the rest of it. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 22:26, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
*****I don't have a wikistress level, Pmanderson.  I have a wikimood, which is completely different. <span style="border: 2px solid #ba0000;">&nbsp;[[User:Denelson83|Denelson]][[User talk:Denelson83|'''83''']]&nbsp;</span> 22:30, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
******As you will. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 22:37, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. [[User:Redwolf24|Redwolf24]] 22:08, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''.  If it's harsh (and frankly I dislike the box around it; it could just be a regular paragraph) then make it less so.  But it's only fair that the uploader of an image be informed of its being deleted, so this template is entirely necessary. -- [[User:Finlay McWalter|Finlay McWalter]] | [[User talk:Finlay McWalter | Talk]] 22:09, August 25, 2005 (UTC)
**I've been bold. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 22:26, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
* '''Keep'''. I think most Wikipedians have thick enough skin to endure a teeny bit of criticism. However, it could use a de-uglification (simple text would be nice). &mdash; [[User:Rdsmith4|Dan]] | [[User talk:Rdsmith4|Talk]] 22:10, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
* '''Keep''' because it is commonly used and useful, and saying you're in a bad mood isn't an excuse for it, [[User:Denelson83|Denelson83]]. [[User:Superm401|Superm401]] | [[User_talk:Superm401|Talk]] 22:19, August 25, 2005 (UTC)
* While it's ugly and fairly unpleasant to recieve, this template is one of the few that gets nominated here that actually serves a useful purpose. [[User:Raul654|→Raul654]] 22:35, August 25, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' I find this factual, not harsh. If you do reformat or reword this, similer changes should probably be made to {{tl|idw-cp}} which i use far more often. [[User:DESiegel|DES]] [[User talk:DESiegel|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 00:16, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' and '''Edit''' so as to be less obtrusive.  There is little need for a message any more obtrusive than the {{tl|TFD}} message.  This template seems quite an overkill and I can see it's deep-sixing wikimood (or elevating wikistress) with each application. As an aside, I think that the {{tl|CFD}} and {{tl|VFD}} notices could be significantly reduced in size/invasiveness without reducing their impact or noteworthiness as well. [[User:Ceyockey|Courtland]] 00:34, 26 August 2005 (UTC) ''input altered from "delete" to "edit" [[User:Ceyockey|Courtland]] 14:27, 26 August 2005 (UTC)''
*'''Keep'''. Revise it, if you feel like it, but something like this is required for notifying the uploader of an image listed on [[WP:IFD]] per the image deletion guidelines. I know why this requirement exists and I'm still not convinced it is strictly necessary, but as long as the requirement to notify is in place, we need some template to put on uploaders' talk pages. --[[User:MarkSweep|MarkSweep]] 07:10, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. The only change that I'd make to the template is to add a second parameter to list the reason why the image was nominated for deletion. [[User:BlankVerse|<span style="color:green;">''Blank''</span><span style="color:#F88017;">''Verse''</span>]] [[User talk:BlankVerse|<span style="color:#F660AB;">∅</span>]] 07:49, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. If you disliked the tone of the message you could have edited it. -- [[User:Joolz|Joolz]] 23:39, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' as it's quite useful. (''added without signature, but determined to be from [[User:ScribeOfTheNile]] on consulting page history'')
*'''Keep'''. Reword it if you have to. But having a template around makes it easier to warn uploaders about upcoming image deletion.  - [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm]]|[[User talk:MacGyverMagic|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 04:56, August 29, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' as it is useful for an uploader to be informed if an image they uploaded is IFD'd. --[[User:Wikiacc|Wikiacc]] [[User talk:Wikiacc|(talk)]] 00:08, August 31, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Neutral''' - I vote for maybe a rewrite as well. NOT a delete. Very handy! --[[User:K.Nevelsteen|None-of-the-Above]] 19:23, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Note:''' I tried to make it a little more pleasant. I made it a slightly more pleasant color (prisons are often painted a pale green as it is a relaxing color), added a "thank you", made the font readible (why so small?), and got rid of the big bad bold "WARNING". I think it still serves its purpose, and won't give anyone a heart attack. --[[User:Fastfission|Fastfission]] 22:05, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
*Keep. [[User:Vacuum|Vacuum]] [[Special:Contributions/Vacuum|c]] 16:19, September 3, 2005 (UTC)

* '''Keep''' -- Are we all ''meshugga?'' Crazy people who shouldn't be let out of the box? Stay on the farm, don't bother the nice people, now come back inside for din-din and take our meds? 

: I can't believe I'm reading a proposal to delete a tool to provide notice that something has been proposed to be deleted! '''Oy!''' and ''oy'' again! And on what grounds? It ''intimidates me'', it's too ''harsh'' -- so, of course, there is nothing at all that we can do except stick the thing in the trash! Never mind that Somebody might actually want to '''know!''' 

: ''Tsa'' on this crazy Project and ''tsa'' on you crazy people! This goes beyond bad-faith; you want to take the tools away from the workers! Maybe you don't like the way those tools are used? You can't ''talk'' to other people, ''ask'' them maybe to use the tool another way? All you can do is '''smash and destroy!''' What next, you'll start [[Wikipedia:Words for Deletion]] so people can't even say what they think!? &mdash; [[User:Xiong|Xiong]][[Special:Emailuser/Xiong|<span style="color:#997749;">熊</span>]][[User talk:Xiong|talk]][[Wikipedia:Deletion reform|<span style="color:#009900;">*</span>]] 22:41, 2005 September 3 (UTC)

Not deleted.  [[User:Dbenbenn|dbenbenn]] | [[User talk:Dbenbenn|talk]] 18:11, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

<u>Period of comment 25 August PM to 3 Sept. PM &mdash; 9 days</u><br>
<u>Removed from TFD 5 Sept. PM &mdash; 11 days</u>

====[[Template:vandal1]]====
I've observed this template, and feel it to be redundant with {[tl|test1}} through {{tl|test3}}. I also feel it is worded a bit harshly and can be construed as [[WP:BITE|biting the newbies]]. It also causes confusion when a person edits the section on a page this template is added to. --[[User:Blu Aardvark|Blu Aardvark]] | <sup>[[User_talk:Blu Aardvark|(talk)]] | [[special:contributions/Blu Aardvark|(contribs)]]</sup> 04:32, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', doesn't strike me as harsh (which is a fixable problem anyway), and naming the article involved is a good idea (especially for shared IPs). I don't see what the problem with section-editing would be. ~~ '''[[User:Nickptar|N]]''' ([[User talk:Nickptar|t]]/[[Special:Contributions/Nickptar|c]]) 21:20, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
*'''keep''', testing is not vandalism, so they are not forks --[[User:MarSch|MarSch]] 14:47, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

<u>Period of comment 27 August AM to 28 August PM &mdash; 1 day</u><br>
<u>Removed from TFD 8 Sept. PM &mdash; 12 days</u>